Should Bill Lazor call the offense again?

[aussiebear99]

I think it's a no-brainer now, so it'll probably take 4 more games like this before it happens.

At least it's the Lions at Soldier Field next week.

[Otis Day]

And you know what the Lions are saying, "At least it's the Bears." The Bears have no business looking over anyone. I doubt the Lions have had such a putrid O showing in their history. The Lions took the Ravens to the end of the game prior to losing.

[Moriarty]

Nah.
I'd rather see Nagy continue to bury himself.

[IE]

I think Lazor will be calling plays after the first Packer game in 3 weeks, after Nagy is fired at 1-5.

[Hema2.0]

I think Lazor will be calling plays after the first Packer game in 3 weeks, after Nagy is fired at 1-5.

I vote for this!

[Bears Whiskey Nut]

If the Bears shit the bed against the Lions, Nagy will have to be fired. Because the next two games will be foregone conclusions at that point.

[wab]

I think Lazor will be calling plays after the first Packer game in 3 weeks, after Nagy is fired at 1-5.

Logically the bye week always makes the most sense to make a move, but I don't think the team can withstand waiting until week 10 if things keep going in the direction they are going.

[IE]

I think Lazor will be calling plays after the first Packer game in 3 weeks, after Nagy is fired at 1-5.

Logically the bye week always makes the most sense to make a move, but I don't think the team can withstand waiting until week 10 if things keep going in the direction they are going.

Agreed. I know the franchise hasn't been the "fire a guy during the season" type... but after they used a 6-game losing streak last year as a bizarre rationale that they were building some sort of collaborative culture, I don't think a 1-5 start is tolerable in any way no matter what lame excuses they might use (e.g. Oline or Dalton injuries). I really do believe that Pace is risking his own job if he lets Nagy persist after 1-5. I can't imagine Pace would risk going 1-8 without sending a message that Nagy is not = Pace.

[wab]

Logically the bye week always makes the most sense to make a move, but I don't think the team can withstand waiting until week 10 if things keep going in the direction they are going.

Agreed. I know the franchise hasn't been the "fire a guy during the season" type... but after they used a 6-game losing streak last year as a bizarre rationale that they were building some sort of collaborative culture, I don't think a 1-5 start is tolerable in any way no matter what lame excuses they might use (e.g. Oline or Dalton injuries). I really do believe that Pace is risking his own job if he lets Nagy persist after 1-5. I can't imagine Pace would risk going 1-8 without sending a message that Nagy is not = Pace.

And while I don't think the FO expectations were a super bowl win, I think they expect the team to not get embarrassed in near historical fashion while seemingly putting their future star QB in a position to fail on purpose.

I've said it before. I like Nagy as a coach and a guy who can design plays. He absolutely HAS to get out of his own way and let someone else do the game planning and play calling though if he wants to survive.

[Moriarty]

Logically the bye week always makes the most sense to make a move, but I don't think the team can withstand waiting until week 10 if things keep going in the direction they are going.

Agreed. I know the franchise hasn't been the "fire a guy during the season" type... but after they used a 6-game losing streak last year as a bizarre rationale that they were building some sort of collaborative culture, I don't think a 1-5 start is tolerable in any way no matter what lame excuses they might use (e.g. Oline or Dalton injuries). I really do believe that Pace is risking his own job if he lets Nagy persist after 1-5. I can't imagine Pace would risk going 1-8 without sending a message that Nagy is not = Pace.

Agreed that letting Nagy continue should be very damaging to Pace - but at the same time, firing him shouldn't remotely suffice to save Pace's job, either.

[wab]

Agreed. I know the franchise hasn't been the "fire a guy during the season" type... but after they used a 6-game losing streak last year as a bizarre rationale that they were building some sort of collaborative culture, I don't think a 1-5 start is tolerable in any way no matter what lame excuses they might use (e.g. Oline or Dalton injuries). I really do believe that Pace is risking his own job if he lets Nagy persist after 1-5. I can't imagine Pace would risk going 1-8 without sending a message that Nagy is not = Pace.

Agreed that letting Nagy continue should be very damaging to Pace - but at the same time, firing him shouldn't remotely suffice to save Pace's job, either.

I'm fine with Pace staying on as GM under the following two conditions;

1 - Nagy just coaches and turns the offense over to his offensive coordinator completely, and the Bears play well.
2 - Nagy is fired and the Bears play well with the interim staff (whoever that might be).

I suppose there's also an outside 3rd chance where Nagy pulls his head out of his ass and turns this thing around, but that didn't happen in 2019 or 2020... and it's not looking great for 2021.

[spudbear]

Nagy giving up playcalling to Lazor again would pretty much incapacitate his ability to lead the team. It's an admisstion to "I'm so stupid I don't know what I'm doing" perception.

What caused him to give up playcalling towards the end of last season? Did he pick up the playcalling for the playoff game against the Saints? What happened since that game for him to think he could call the plays for the offense this season?

If the answer is Mitch leaving, then he's a fool. Just because you're good at Madden football video doesn't mean you can compete with real NFL coaches. Giving up the playcalling to Lazor would be an admission that he can't compete with the other coaches, so he will continue to cling to the power until it is wrested away.

[IE]

Nagy mostly re-grabbed the reins at the end of last year, for the Packer game and Playoffs at least. IIRC he may have indicated that he "never really gave up" being in control of the offense. My take at the time was he wanted credit for the 30 point games they were throwing up against patsies. If you look at the Saints wildcard game and squint, it looks exactly like the first 3 games we saw this year. Nothing was changed or added or improved. Because Nagy, in his own mind, is already perfect.

[TheWorldBreaker]

Nagy mostly re-grabbed the reins at the end of last year, for the Packer game and Playoffs at least. IIRC he may have indicated that he "never really gave up" being in control of the offense. My take at the time was he wanted credit for the 30 point games they were throwing up against patsies. If you look at the Saints wildcard game and squint, it looks exactly like the first 3 games we saw this year. Nothing was changed or added or improved. Because Nagy, in his own mind, is already perfect.

So is Bill Lazor actually good at calling plays or was he just calling plays against patsies?

[Grizzled]

The band will keep playing on deck while the ship goes down. No changes till the offseason. The stands are full, TV and advertising money will roll in regardless, why should they?

[wab]

Nagy giving up playcalling to Lazor again would pretty much incapacitate his ability to lead the team. It's an admisstion to "I'm so stupid I don't know what I'm doing" perception.

What caused him to give up playcalling towards the end of last season? Did he pick up the playcalling for the playoff game against the Saints? What happened since that game for him to think he could call the plays for the offense this season?

If the answer is Mitch leaving, then he's a fool. Just because you're good at Madden football video doesn't mean you can compete with real NFL coaches. Giving up the playcalling to Lazor would be an admission that he can't compete with the other coaches, so he will continue to cling to the power until it is wrested away.

I disagree. There are many aspects of coaching that he's good at, so delegating play calling to Lazor would allow him to focus on the things he does well. Players only care about what is working and what is helping them win.

[IE]

Nagy mostly re-grabbed the reins at the end of last year, for the Packer game and Playoffs at least. IIRC he may have indicated that he "never really gave up" being in control of the offense. My take at the time was he wanted credit for the 30 point games they were throwing up against patsies. If you look at the Saints wildcard game and squint, it looks exactly like the first 3 games we saw this year. Nothing was changed or added or improved. Because Nagy, in his own mind, is already perfect.

So is Bill Lazor actually good at calling plays or was he just calling plays against patsies?

As you almost certainly know, it is probably a mixture of both. I don't think Lazor is the complete answer, because he can only call plays in Nagy's offense and he needs to work within the constraints of what the team has been taught. And the results will also reflect how they've been prepared. But I'm assuming/expecting that he wouldn't make insane mistakes like leaving an overmatched OT on an island for an entire game without employing some tactics to help him.

The way Nagy calls games, he seems to have zero memory. It's like "Mr. Short Term Memory" from SNL is the Bears OC. So he can't learn and he can't fix anything - it is completely beyond his ability.

[TheWorldBreaker]

So is Bill Lazor actually good at calling plays or was he just calling plays against patsies?

As you almost certainly know, it is probably a mixture of both. I don't think Lazor is the complete answer, because he can only call plays in Nagy's offense and he needs to work within the constraints of what the team has been taught. And the results will also reflect how they've been prepared. But I'm assuming/expecting that he wouldn't make insane mistakes like leaving an overmatched OT on an island for an entire game without employing some tactics to help him.

The way Nagy calls games, he seems to have zero memory. It's like "Mr. Short Term Memory" from SNL is the Bears OC. So he can't learn and he can't fix anything - it is completely beyond his ability.

I actually don’t know, I recall a lot of people being down on him when he was hired but I never watched Cincinnati games. And things went better with him calling plays but that was against bad teams and many people speculate Nagy took the play calling back at the end of the season/playoffs. So it’s hard to judge.

I think some of the Garrett stuff is overstated because they lined him up all over the place including over the guard a lot and he dominated double teams like in this clip:



Ifedi and Daniels just cannot get dominated that badly.

[IE]

As you almost certainly know, it is probably a mixture of both. I don't think Lazor is the complete answer, because he can only call plays in Nagy's offense and he needs to work within the constraints of what the team has been taught. And the results will also reflect how they've been prepared. But I'm assuming/expecting that he wouldn't make insane mistakes like leaving an overmatched OT on an island for an entire game without employing some tactics to help him.

The way Nagy calls games, he seems to have zero memory. It's like "Mr. Short Term Memory" from SNL is the Bears OC. So he can't learn and he can't fix anything - it is completely beyond his ability.

I actually don’t know, I recall a lot of people being down on him when he was hired but I never watched Cincinnati games. And things went better with him calling plays but that was against bad teams and many people speculate Nagy took the play calling back at the end of the season/playoffs. So it’s hard to judge.

It IS hard to tell, and Nagy is not transparent about how all the stuff goes. But the one thing is clear, is when Nagy's hands are fully on the wheel we get what we have been seeing. Not just this year but going back to big games against good teams with competent defensive coordinators that ended up being embarrassing offensive disasters.

[Moriarty]

Ifedi and Daniels just cannot get dominated that badly.

Good clip - although Ifedi had the outside man, so that was purely Daniels getting wrecked there.

I've been leaning to letting him go all along and that sure doesn't help.

[The Marshall Plan]

I actually don’t know, I recall a lot of people being down on him when he was hired but I never watched Cincinnati games. And things went better with him calling plays but that was against bad teams and many people speculate Nagy took the play calling back at the end of the season/playoffs. So it’s hard to judge.

It IS hard to tell, and Nagy is not transparent about how all the stuff goes. But the one thing is clear, is when Nagy's hands are fully on the wheel we get what we have been seeing. Not just this year but going back to big games against good teams with competent defensive coordinators that ended up being embarrassing offensive disasters.

RE: The “Nagy’s hands are fully on the wheel” comment.

Matt Nagy is the Toonces The Driving Cat of playcallers.

[karhu]

He couldn't be any worse, but I'm not sure that I trust Lazor much more than I do Nagy.

In yesterday's game, ferinstance, bootlegs and moving pockets weren't going to be the answer. Screen passes wouldn't have meant much. Because our line was being regularly and terrifyingly destroyed by a four-man rush (and at crucial times by a three-man rush). You get fancy to keep blitzers away. Move the pocket, and you're just putting Fields in front of Garrett or Clowney. Throw a screen, and you're throwing right in front of a defense that can literally keep every legally entitled player off the line and in coverage. There's no benefit--those things don't make Cleveland do anything it wasn't already doing.

The only answer, and the one for which we should've prepared, was to run straight the fuck at their DEs. Two TEs on every play, and just pound them. Three and out? Fine. We'll come back and beat on you for three more. And after a series or two, we'll be beating on you for five, six, seven plays in a row.

When you know that your opponent is superior, you don't play away from that superiority. You find a way to attack it that limits its impact on your game. If a taller guy's defending you in basketball, fadeaways aren't the answer. Along with any other tricks up your sleeve, you've got to go straight at them and body them up. If you're boxing a guy who has a reach on you, you don't try to stop him from jabbing or set up where he wants you to--you keep yourself available, slip his jab, and combo him up inside. He's jabbing because he doesn't want you to land a hook. And he's going to keep up the jab, so your job is to let him have that while also getting inside.

Cleveland has one surpassingly good pass-rushing DE and another who plays that way when he's healthy and motivated. So we needed to largely give up the pass in favor of making their two best defenders play a game they didn't want to. Like trying to arm-tackle David Montgomery while being double-teamed.

Nothing in Lazor's past tells me that he'd stoop to such a meat-and-potatoes level. Not his work under *shudder* Chip Kelley, not his failure as Miami's OC, where he ran the ball at a Nagy-ish clip and with less success. Nagy hired him for a reason, and not, predictably, a good one.

[IE]

He couldn't be any worse, but I'm not sure that I trust Lazor much more than I do Nagy.

In yesterday's game, ferinstance, bootlegs and moving pockets weren't going to be the answer. Screen passes wouldn't have meant much. Because our line was being regularly and terrifyingly destroyed by a four-man rush (and at crucial times by a three-man rush). You get fancy to keep blitzers away. Move the pocket, and you're just putting Fields in front of Garrett or Clowney. Throw a screen, and you're throwing right in front of a defense that can literally keep every legally entitled player off the line and in coverage. There's no benefit--those things don't make Cleveland do anything it wasn't already doing.

The only answer, and the one for which we should've prepared, was to run straight the fuck at their DEs. Two TEs on every play, and just pound them. Three and out? Fine. We'll come back and beat on you for three more. And after a series or two, we'll be beating on you for five, six, seven plays in a row.

When you know that your opponent is superior, you don't play away from that superiority. You find a way to attack it that limits its impact on your game. If a taller guy's defending you in basketball, fadeaways aren't the answer. Along with any other tricks up your sleeve, you've got to go straight at them and body them up. If you're boxing a guy who has a reach on you, you don't try to stop him from jabbing or set up where he wants you to--you keep yourself available, slip his jab, and combo him up inside. He's jabbing because he doesn't want you to land a hook. And he's going to keep up the jab, so your job is to let him have that while also getting inside.

Cleveland has one surpassingly good pass-rushing DE and another who plays that way when he's healthy and motivated. So we needed to largely give up the pass in favor of making their two best defenders play a game they didn't want to. Like trying to arm-tackle David Montgomery while being double-teamed.

Nothing in Lazor's past tells me that he'd stoop to such a meat-and-potatoes level. Not his work under *shudder* Chip Kelley, not his failure as Miami's OC, where he ran the ball at a Nagy-ish clip and with less success. Nagy hired him for a reason, and not, predictably, a good one.

Generally agree with all and whole-heartedly agree with the preferred game plan against that team. I do think they could have been successful with some screens and some more pocket movement/rollouts - and then that would have helped the inside running game. But to not have 3 TEs out there and run hard at them with some more play fakes to the same TEs... seems like Malfeasance.

[Grizzled]

All I can say is how can it get any worse than Nagy. Maybe if the Bears end up with negative yardage under Lazor?

[Kylo Bearen]

And you know what the Lions are saying, "At least it's the Bears." The Bears have no business looking over anyone. I doubt the Lions have had such a putrid O showing in their history. The Lions took the Ravens to the end of the game prior to losing.

Yep. Now teams are circling their games against Chi as a win.

[aussiebear99]

Generally agree with all and whole-heartedly agree with the preferred game plan against that team. I do think they could have been successful with some screens and some more pocket movement/rollouts - and then that would have helped the inside running game. But to not have 3 TEs out there and run hard at them with some more play fakes to the same TEs... seems like Malfeasance.

I agree too. Pretty early on in the game I started thinking run straight at them. Holtz, Kmet, even an extra OT at TE as has been done by the Bears before some I - formation. Take advantage of the fact that our OL is pretty massive, too - not Raiders massive, but averages about 330. Make them stack the box. Get low and get a fucking wedge going. If they're winning with quicks inside, tighten the splits a little. Or run a trap here and there.

And then, play action off that, hidden routes by TEs if you wanna be cute Nagy.

Really pretty similar to what Lazor did.

[IE]

I'm going to defend Daniels (and the entire Oline) *a bit* here. On that play Daniels pushed Garrett out of the way and maybe with a more experienced QB or different play call there was no issue there. What is he supposed to do? ON that particular play he didn't get wrecked - he pushed his guy out of the way for 3 mississippi and the QB had time to step up and throw. If he was wrecked he would have been put on his ass and the QB sacked in 1 - 1.5 seconds. That's what happened all day long, with a sub 1 second average time for Fields (which is jaw-dropping). But gents I'm going to stay resolute that it had far more to do with Nagy's play calls and the lack of protective tactics than the individual guys getting "wrecked".

I know I know... "But Eric if they were good they wouldn't need help". My answer is "Most lines do. Average lines do. Especially against fierce rushers.

[wab]

I'm going to defend Daniels (and the entire Oline) *a bit* here. On that play Daniels pushed Garrett out of the way and maybe with a more experienced QB or different play call there was no issue there. What is he supposed to do? ON that particular play he didn't get wrecked - he pushed his guy out of the way for 3 mississippi and the QB had time to step up and throw. If he was wrecked he would have been put on his ass and the QB sacked in 1 - 1.5 seconds. That's what happened all day long, with a sub 1 second average time for Fields (which is jaw-dropping). But gents I'm going to stay resolute that it had far more to do with Nagy's play calls and the lack of protective tactics than the individual guys getting "wrecked".

I know I know... "But Eric if they were good they wouldn't need help". My answer is "Most lines do. Average lines do. Especially against fierce rushers.

The guards played pretty well, I have no issue with Daniels or Whitehair in that game. Mustipher got trucked and ended up literally on his back multiple times. Peters and Ifedi... well you saw it.

[Bears Whiskey Nut]

I'm going to defend Daniels (and the entire Oline) *a bit* here. On that play Daniels pushed Garrett out of the way and maybe with a more experienced QB or different play call there was no issue there. What is he supposed to do? ON that particular play he didn't get wrecked - he pushed his guy out of the way for 3 mississippi and the QB had time to step up and throw. If he was wrecked he would have been put on his ass and the QB sacked in 1 - 1.5 seconds. That's what happened all day long, with a sub 1 second average time for Fields (which is jaw-dropping). But gents I'm going to stay resolute that it had far more to do with Nagy's play calls and the lack of protective tactics than the individual guys getting "wrecked".

I know I know... "But Eric if they were good they wouldn't need help". My answer is "Most lines do. Average lines do. Especially against fierce rushers.

The guards played pretty well, I have no issue with Daniels or Whitehair in that game. Mustipher got trucked and ended up literally on his back multiple times. Peters and Ifedi... well you saw it.

Ifedi was not good and Peters is just a statue at his age. The other problem, which Olin Kruetz brought up was, they were on a silent count because of the crowd noise. All of the linemen had to be looking at the ball. By the time they got their head around after the snap, the DE's were two steps in the backfield. But that goes back to game prep and giving your OL some help. It's anticipating that problem before the game. It's recognizing that your LT is 39 and has lost a step and a half. None of that was game planned for. None of it.

[UOK]

Renamed the thread to prevent confusion.