Is Vildor The Worst CB We've Ever Had?

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Otis Day
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Don't forget Vestoast (Vestee) Jackson. He had one great year for Chicago, had 8 ints, but I just remember him getting burned long quite a bit. His other years were here were no where close to his big year.
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wab wrote: Mon Nov 22, 2021 11:22 am
IE wrote: Mon Nov 22, 2021 10:10 am I'll add this, as long are we're picking on Vildor... JJ isn't very good either. He has a good breakup every now and again (so do they all), but he's got the worst stone hands and has the worst ball-hawking intuition I've EVER seen in a Bear CB.

I'm selling high on JJ if you can get anything for him.
This is a weird take.

I'll grant you that JJ might be more of a #2 corner than a #1. But throwing him out with the bathwater when he's the only consistent player in the secondary is odd.
Quick reminder that you're talking to the same guy who wanted Greg Olsen traded for a turkey sandwich.
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KOP_Snake wrote: Mon Nov 22, 2021 2:52 pm
wab wrote: Mon Nov 22, 2021 11:22 am

This is a weird take.

I'll grant you that JJ might be more of a #2 corner than a #1. But throwing him out with the bathwater when he's the only consistent player in the secondary is odd.
Quick reminder that you're talking to the same guy who wanted Greg Olsen traded for a turkey sandwich.
But it was one of your mother's turkey sandwiches - which she served without dressing. :flick:
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IE wrote: Mon Nov 22, 2021 3:07 pm
KOP_Snake wrote: Mon Nov 22, 2021 2:52 pm

Quick reminder that you're talking to the same guy who wanted Greg Olsen traded for a turkey sandwich.
But it was one of your mother's turkey sandwiches - which she served without dressing.
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Moriarty wrote: Mon Nov 22, 2021 2:15 pm
HisRoyalSweetness wrote: Mon Nov 22, 2021 1:04 pm

Johnson:
Targets: 50
Completions: 26
Completion %: 52.0%
Yards: 394
Yards/Comp: 15.2
Yards/Target: 7.9
TDs: 2
INTs: 1
Passer Rating: 83.2

Vildor:
Targets: 40
Completions: 29
Completion %: 72.5%
Yards: 463
Yards/Comp: 16.0
Yards/Target: 11.6
TDs: 5
INTs: 0
Passer Rating: 150.3

All the talk before the season was about how the secondary would be fine if the pass rush was good. Well it mostly has been good with Mack (prior to his injury) and Quinn both being as productive as we could have hoped and others contributing. In the last game the team recorded six sacks. There is no excuse for the underperformance of the secondary. The big play that took the Ravens down to the 3 yard line was all down to a blown coverage; the pressure was great on that play with Quinn right up in Huntley's face, but with Watkins wide open all he had to do was throw it up. Quinn's reaction at his presser after the game summed it up. He refused to throw anyone under the bus but he wound up shaking his head in disbelief that they'd lost that game.

Johnson is a solid CB, but not a star. As wab says, he's probably a number 2 guy.

Vildor just can't make plays even when his coverage is pretty decent. He just seems to lack instincts and loses out every time on contested catches.
Nice stuff. :thumbsup:
Where do you get this?


I don't recall how that compares to before, but JJ is still very solid and Vildor very bad by those (which I think are very good metrics, unless there's objection to the assignment of which plays they are being 'thrown against').
https://www.pro-football-reference.com/

There is lots of good stuff there that you don't get from nfl.com. These come from the 'Advanced Defense' section for each defender they have going back to 2018. It's a shame they didn't keep records prior to then so you can see how older players at positions faired in their formative years or compare potential Hall of Fame candidates who played the same position. Give it a few years though...

They also have Game Logs and Advanced Game Logs. The stats don't include the Ravens game yet. Johnson started very strongly the first couple of weeks with opponent passer ratings of 47.9 against the Rams where he was only targeted 3 times and a rating of zero against the Bengals (2 receptions on 7 targets for 9 yards). That's probably when you heard about his rating being so low. Since then he's been less effective with the games against the Packers and Buccaneers unsurprisingly being the ones in which he struggled the most.

Vildor on the other hand has struggled every game, except ironically against Green Bay where he was only targeted twice. I'm surprised he hasn't been targeted as much as Johnson given how much more success teams have had against him. Maybe his coverage is generally tighter but, as I noted earlier, he just always loses contested catches. Either way, his production leaves a lot to be desired.
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IE wrote: Mon Nov 22, 2021 3:07 pm
KOP_Snake wrote: Mon Nov 22, 2021 2:52 pm

Quick reminder that you're talking to the same guy who wanted Greg Olsen traded for a turkey sandwich.
But it was one of your mother's turkey sandwiches - which she served without dressing. :flick:
Do you mean the turkey was served naked or KOP_Snake's mother served it while naked?! :?
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No
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Burl wrote: Mon Nov 22, 2021 9:57 am Vildor strikes me as the kind of defender who can be adequate role-player if those around him are performing at a high level.
When the defense as a whole is underperforming, certain players are going to bear the brunt of that when they're isolated. In short, Vildor is as more of a symptom than the cause, IMO.

Think of how good Vasher was when we had that DL and LBs in early OO's. Soon as that core started to slip, he got "exposed".
This represents my view.
Mikefive's theory: The only time you KNOW that a sports team player, coach or management member is being 100% honest is when they're NOT reciting "the company line".

Go back to leather helmets, NFL.
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HisRoyalSweetness wrote: Mon Nov 22, 2021 6:45 pm
IE wrote: Mon Nov 22, 2021 3:07 pm

But it was one of your mother's turkey sandwiches - which she served without dressing. :flick:
Do you mean the turkey was served naked or KOP_Snake's mother served it while naked?! :?
Yes.
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I think some of you are forgetting Chris Thompson...
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wab wrote: Tue Nov 23, 2021 9:52 am I think some of you are forgetting Chris Thompson...
Boris' favorite.
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wab wrote: Tue Nov 23, 2021 9:52 am I think some of you are forgetting Chris Thompson...
I have.

But - looking it up - he had one whole career start.
That's a different category from being your full season starter, like Vildor.
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Moriarty wrote: Tue Nov 23, 2021 1:12 pm
wab wrote: Tue Nov 23, 2021 9:52 am I think some of you are forgetting Chris Thompson...
I have.

But - looking it up - he had one whole career start.
That's a different category from being your full season starter, like Vildor.
I didn't realize there were qualifiers attached.
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Here's an 'advanced stats' shocker:

Vildor on Sunday against the Ravens actually had his second best game of the season in terms of advanced statistics.

Targets: 10
Completions: 6
Completion %: 60.0%
Yards: 78
Yards/Comp: 13.0
Yards/Target: 7.8
TDs: 0
INTs: 0
Passer Rating: 84.6

Shame they don't take account of PI and blown coverages in critical situations.
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IE wrote: Tue Nov 23, 2021 9:53 am
wab wrote: Tue Nov 23, 2021 9:52 am I think some of you are forgetting Chris Thompson...
Boris' favorite.
ah yes, good ol' Toilet Brush Thompson ... never met a defensive call he could understand or a strategy he could implement ... total waste product
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Moriarty wrote: Tue Nov 23, 2021 1:12 pm
wab wrote: Tue Nov 23, 2021 9:52 am I think some of you are forgetting Chris Thompson...
I have.

But - looking it up - he had one whole career start.
That's a different category from being your full season starter, like Vildor.
doesn't matter ... he did have playing opportunities in many more games and his efforts and results during that playing time explains why he only had 1 start

you had to see him play to truly understand how out of his depth he was at the NFL level
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Boris13c wrote: Sat Nov 27, 2021 11:35 pm
Moriarty wrote: Tue Nov 23, 2021 1:12 pm

I have.

But - looking it up - he had one whole career start.
That's a different category from being your full season starter, like Vildor.
doesn't matter ... he did have playing opportunities in many more games and his efforts and results during that playing time explains why he only had 1 start

you had to see him play to truly understand how out of his depth he was at the NFL level

It matters a lot.

Of course CBs at the bottom of your depth chart are going to be worse than CBs at the top.
On the flip side, having a bad CB in your starting lineup is a lot more harmful than having a really bad CB5.

Vildor isn't remotely "The Worst CB the Bears have ever* had on their roster". That should be pretty obvious common sense. I mean, there's 3 guys right now behind him on the depth chart. You'd hope he's better than at least 1 of them, if not all 3.
Vildor is very possibly "The Worst CB the Bears have ever* started for a whole season (deliberately, and not just because the real starter got hurt)."


* None of us knows way back, the average athlete then can't begin to compare to now, etc. So maybe "Super Bowl Era".
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I don't mind Vildor getting his shot over Trufant, it let us see what we have in Vildor - which isn't much lol. CB is a massive need for us heading into the off season, Vildor's play made that abundantly clear. Clarity is good. I want some clarity at OT, hoping we see Jenkins soon. And, I'm about done with Mustipher + we have a decision on Daniels, I'd really like to see him play C and see if he can move back there. If he can I'd think about resigning him. If not, guard is an easy replacement position and not one to overpay.
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Daniels is still only 24. He's put on like 35lbs since being drafted and looks like he's really starting to develop into something. I'd hate to let him walk, but yes, guards are pretty easy to replace.
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wab wrote: Mon Nov 29, 2021 11:40 am Daniels is still only 24. He's put on like 35lbs since being drafted and looks like he's really starting to develop into something. I'd hate to let him walk, but yes, guards are pretty easy to replace.
If we could just wave a magic wand, I'd transfer Whitehair's money to Daniels and let Whitehair walk. Daniels has youth/upside. Whitehair is ok and all but really overpaid. Our interior line should be better than it is and I don't think it's all Mustipher causing the problem - we haven't gotten any push up front since Fox/Howard.
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dplank wrote: Mon Nov 29, 2021 11:54 am
wab wrote: Mon Nov 29, 2021 11:40 am Daniels is still only 24. He's put on like 35lbs since being drafted and looks like he's really starting to develop into something. I'd hate to let him walk, but yes, guards are pretty easy to replace.
If we could just wave a magic wand, I'd transfer Whitehair's money to Daniels and let Whitehair walk. Daniels has youth/upside. Whitehair is ok and all but really overpaid. Our interior line should be better than it is and I don't think it's all Mustipher causing the problem - we haven't gotten any push up front since Fox/Howard.
I'll defer to your expertise here - how much of that could be coaching/scheme, vs these players' ability to get push?
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Thx but I don't really have any expertise. It appears to me that we take mobile guys over mass/strength guys, and I just prefer an OL full of massive monsters that can't be moved. And I prefer players with a mean streak over nice, soft spoken ones. I care less about an OL's ability to get to the 2nd level than I do about an OL's ability to move men off their spots in the trenches. Whitehair/Mustipher/Daniels are all smaller nice guys, no matter how much they bulk up they are just smaller/weaker than a natural hoss like Q. Nelson. And none have that killer attitude like Nelson. I get we can't have an OL full of all stars, but that's the personality/physical profile I look for with interior lineman. C is a little different, you can be smaller and effective at C as we've seen with Kruetz and others, but it makes having 2 behemoths at G all the more necessary IMO. It's not a hard/fast rule or anything, just a preference. We got it done with Kruetz/Garza for a while and neither are very big - but we took off when big Ruben Brown came over from Buffalo!

Bottom line, for whatever the reason, our interior line isn't good. We get pushed around by opposing DL, rarely create any push inside. I'm just dying to see Jenkins get out there, I think he has a lot of what we need: size, power, nasty disposition. Too bad he's not a G.
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dplank wrote: Mon Nov 29, 2021 12:26 pm I'm just dying to see Jenkins get out there, I think he has a lot of what we need: size, power, nasty disposition. Too bad he's not a G.
Don't be so sure...
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IE wrote: Mon Nov 29, 2021 12:12 pm
dplank wrote: Mon Nov 29, 2021 11:54 am

If we could just wave a magic wand, I'd transfer Whitehair's money to Daniels and let Whitehair walk. Daniels has youth/upside. Whitehair is ok and all but really overpaid. Our interior line should be better than it is and I don't think it's all Mustipher causing the problem - we haven't gotten any push up front since Fox/Howard.
I'll defer to your expertise here - how much of that could be coaching/scheme, vs these players' ability to get push?
I know you are talking to DP, but I'll give you my perspective...

The Bears have taken three 300lb athletic/agile zone blocking interior linemen in Daniels/Mustipher/Whitehair and bulked them all up to 330 and are now asking them to be maulers. Being bigger doesn't translate to stronger. I think you are seeing that specifically with Mustipher and to a lesser extent Whitehair. Daniels seems to have taken the added weight well.
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Has the running game and push in it been a problem?
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And to return this thread to the topic of Vildor...
Bears still have high hopes for Kindle Vildor

The Bears still believe in second-year cornerback Kindle Vildor and are trying to avoid crushing his confidence after replacing him as the starter following a pair of costly mishaps against the Ravens on Nov. 21. But even that became problematic last week.

Defensive coordinator Sean Desai had planned to start veteran Artie Burns against the Lions on Thanksgiving while still having cornerbacks coach Deshea Townsend use Vildor in a rotation. Instead, it turned into a full-blown benching, with Vildor not getting one snap on defense.

“Quite frankly, I probably should have played him more in the Detroit game,” Desai said. “The plan was to play him more from my end and Coach Deshea’s, and it kind of got away, the way the game kind of flowed. That sometimes happens.”

Desai knew he had some damage control to do after that.

“I talked to Kindle right after the game, too, and he understood,” Desai said. “He knows that he’s still an important part of our defense that we’re gonna need. His approach has been great.”
...

With the Bears on the fringe of playoff contention — they’re currently one game behind seventh-seeded Washington but with six other teams ahead of them — they might be better off letting Vildor learn the hard way and see if there’s a future payoff. It’s not as if Prince Amukamara is ahead of him.

“That’s always a tough call,” Desai acknowledged. “And that’s part of our jobs, to find that balance of taking lumps, and we’ve been pretty balanced in terms of that. He’s flashed in a positive way at some points throughout the season. It’s nothing against him. It’s kind of what we felt was a necessary change as a unit — and it’s not a permanent change.”

Desai sees the potential. But sometimes when you don’t have a lot of competition at a position, you see more in a young player than is actually there. Other times, you’re under so much pressure to fill a spot, you give up too soon.

That’s why guys like Pace and Desai get paid the big bucks.

“When you’re in the meeting room and you’re with the person every day for a long time, you can see where the guy is improving mentally, and then on the field, you’ve got to make sure it matches,” Desai said. “[Vildor has] been able to do that. He understands what we want of him in that role, and he understands the techniques and the tools we want.”

And they’re not giving up on him yet.

“Kindle is not a non-starter,” Desai said. “He’s still part of our plans, and we’re going to continue to develop him that way.”

Full article: https://chicago.suntimes.com/bears/2021 ... dle-vildor
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this part of that article made me chuckle
With the Bears on the fringe of playoff contention — they’re currently one game behind seventh-seeded Washington but with six other teams ahead of them — they might be better off letting Vildor learn the hard way and see if there’s a future payoff.
delusional thinking seems to be the driving force ... delusional in thinking this Bears team is a playoff team ... and delusional in thinking there is talent in players when clearly that is not the case
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Moriarty wrote: Mon Nov 29, 2021 11:23 am
Boris13c wrote: Sat Nov 27, 2021 11:35 pm

doesn't matter ... he did have playing opportunities in many more games and his efforts and results during that playing time explains why he only had 1 start

you had to see him play to truly understand how out of his depth he was at the NFL level

It matters a lot.

Of course CBs at the bottom of your depth chart are going to be worse than CBs at the top.
On the flip side, having a bad CB in your starting lineup is a lot more harmful than having a really bad CB5.

Vildor isn't remotely "The Worst CB the Bears have ever* had on their roster". That should be pretty obvious common sense. I mean, there's 3 guys right now behind him on the depth chart. You'd hope he's better than at least 1 of them, if not all 3.
Vildor is very possibly "The Worst CB the Bears have ever* started for a whole season (deliberately, and not just because the real starter got hurt)."


* None of us knows way back, the average athlete then can't begin to compare to now, etc. So maybe "Super Bowl Era".

fair enough ... I see your point

my perspective was, whether you are a starter or CB5 as you state, if every time you take the field disaster is the result, then you probably shouldn't even be on the roster
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Boris13c wrote: Fri Dec 03, 2021 9:43 am this part of that article made me chuckle
With the Bears on the fringe of playoff contention — they’re currently one game behind seventh-seeded Washington but with six other teams ahead of them — they might be better off letting Vildor learn the hard way and see if there’s a future payoff.
delusional thinking seems to be the driving force ... delusional in thinking this Bears team is a playoff team ... and delusional in thinking there is talent in players when clearly that is not the case
I think you may have misinterpreted what Mark Potash is saying there Boris. He's making the point that the Bears are so unlikely to make the playoffs that they may as well play young guys like Vildor in order to determine whether or not they can be developed. I suspect many of us would agree with that. Unfortunately Nagy won't because he's got to win to have any chance of saving his job (or showing another team he's worth hiring in some capacity) and therefore has no reason to take actions that are in the longer term interests of the team.
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Not sure then why they wouldn't be working on getting Jenkins time over Peters. This is where leadership really matters. I get that we have this history of not firing coaches mid year or ownership meddling in football affairs, but we are lacking a long term vision right now and still foolishly chasing short term goals that aren't reasonably achievable. Recognize when it's over, don't dwell on it, and move on to getting better and winning the next challenge - this is basic life stuff that applies anywhere. This is the role ownership should take IMO, that top level strategic stuff. You don't have to be a "football guy" to realize that your HC is making decisions based on his situation that aren't necessarily the right long term decisions for the franchise. And so when you realize that's happening, you take action and remove the HC. Don't meddle and tell him what to do, that will create a very negative impression on the franchise and I'm glad we don't have that Dan Snyder rep. Rather, remove the HC! It's not hard, we just lack the backbone to do difficult things IMO.

It's a lot like cable news. They don't hire anchors and tell them what they want them to say, rather they hire the anchors who they know will say the things that they want said without being told to do so, because that's just who they are and they already know this. In this case, our HC is in self preservation mode, so rather than directing his activities that better our long term strategy, just remove him from the job and replace him with someone else who doesn't have that problem.
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