Should OT rules be amended?

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Yogi da Bear wrote: Wed Jan 26, 2022 11:36 pm
HisRoyalSweetness wrote: Wed Jan 26, 2022 9:55 pm
The Packers front office might not agree after last weekend. :D
And for the record, both Bill Bellichek and John Harbaugh came from a Special Teams Coach background.

Just saying.
I am not trying to cross threads here, but I wish the overtime rules would involve special teams more. Would it make any sense to have each team punt from deep in their own end zone, instead of a kickoff?

That might speed things up with better field position and a punt return is my favorite way to score.

Green Bay's neglect of special teams was an embarrassment for everybody. What a perversion of the game. Fuck them.
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pus wrote: Thu Jan 27, 2022 11:22 am
Yogi da Bear wrote: Wed Jan 26, 2022 11:36 pm

And for the record, both Bill Bellichek and John Harbaugh came from a Special Teams Coach background.

Just saying.
I am not trying to cross threads here, but I wish the overtime rules would involve special teams more. Would it make any sense to have each team punt from deep in their own end zone, instead of a kickoff?

That might speed things up with better field position and a punt return is my favorite way to score.

Green Bay's neglect of special teams was an embarrassment for everybody. What a perversion of the game. Fuck them.
Honestly I kind of want to kill KO completely. Do the CFL rule where everyone lines up across the field and can't move until the ball is fielded. But instead of kickoff, it has to be a punt or drop kick. Move it up a bit would be fine.
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Xee wrote: Mon Jan 24, 2022 11:56 am
Z Bear wrote: Mon Jan 24, 2022 11:15 am No, the rules are fine right now. The Bills defense had several chances to stop KC in overtime and they didn't, moreso in the end of regulation. No way should you let a team drive for a FG in 13 seconds. The rules are already skewed enough for the offense, no need to change the overtime rules to give both offenses a chance. Football is a team sport and all facets of said team need to excel to be a contender.
The issue is in the playoffs, when the teams are the best of the best, its pretty much guaranteed that the team who wins the coin toss will win the game. Since the new OT rules in 2011, 11 playoff games have gone into overtime. Of those games, the team that got the ball first has won 10 times.
For the record, this is a skewed stat:

Only 7 of those 10 wins were because of a TD scored on the first possession.

In one of those wins, the Patriots picked up TWO Third and tens.

In another the Patriots picked up a third and seven.

The first OT under the new rules had Tim Tebow throwing an eighty-yard TD on the first play of overtime. That's such an unlikely occurrence, I don't see how it can be included in these figures.

And finally, two of the six-point first possession losses were by the Packers.

Game, set, and match. Keep the Rules as they are. lol
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Bengals lost the coin toss. They got a stop and won the game. Wheres all the bitching about unfair OT rules and the team who wins the coin toss wins the game?
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HurricaneBear wrote: Tue Feb 01, 2022 11:43 am Bengals lost the coin toss. They got a stop and won the game. Wheres all the bitching about unfair OT rules and the team who wins the coin toss wins the game?
Rule still dumb.
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Yogi da Bear wrote: Thu Jan 27, 2022 11:56 am
Xee wrote: Mon Jan 24, 2022 11:56 am

The issue is in the playoffs, when the teams are the best of the best, its pretty much guaranteed that the team who wins the coin toss will win the game. Since the new OT rules in 2011, 11 playoff games have gone into overtime. Of those games, the team that got the ball first has won 10 times.
For the record, this is a skewed stat:

Only 7 of those 10 wins were because of a TD scored on the first possession.

In one of those wins, the Patriots picked up TWO Third and tens.

In another the Patriots picked up a third and seven.

The first OT under the new rules had Tim Tebow throwing an eighty-yard TD on the first play of overtime. That's such an unlikely occurrence, I don't see how it can be included in these figures.

And finally, two of the six-point first possession losses were by the Packers.

Game, set, and match. Keep the Rules as they are. lol

:scared:

These are some really bizarre reasons to dismiss the reality of what has happened. Are you just joking around here?
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Moriarty wrote: Tue Feb 01, 2022 12:28 pm
Yogi da Bear wrote: Thu Jan 27, 2022 11:56 am

For the record, this is a skewed stat:

Only 7 of those 10 wins were because of a TD scored on the first possession.

In one of those wins, the Patriots picked up TWO Third and tens.

In another the Patriots picked up a third and seven.

The first OT under the new rules had Tim Tebow throwing an eighty-yard TD on the first play of overtime. That's such an unlikely occurrence, I don't see how it can be included in these figures.

And finally, two of the six-point first possession losses were by the Packers.

Game, set, and match. Keep the Rules as they are. lol
:scared:

These are some really bizarre reasons to dismiss the reality of what has happened. Are you just joking around here?
I think the "only 7 of those 10 wins were because of a TD scored on the first possession" is a pretty important figure. People seem to be operating under the assumption that the reason teams who win the coin flip win in the post-season, as being due to the fact that they just go down, score a TD, and the loser of the coin flip never gets a chance to touch the ball. That statistic pretty much does away with that point of view.
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Richie wrote: Tue Feb 01, 2022 6:05 pm
Moriarty wrote: Tue Feb 01, 2022 12:28 pm

:scared:

These are some really bizarre reasons to dismiss the reality of what has happened. Are you just joking around here?
I think the "only 7 of those 10 wins were because of a TD scored on the first possession" is a pretty important figure. People seem to be operating under the assumption that the reason teams who win the coin flip win in the post-season, as being due to the fact that they just go down, score a TD, and the loser of the coin flip never gets a chance to touch the ball. That statistic pretty much does away with that point of view.
Totally agree as it was exactly my point. ;) Everybody was screaming about changing the rules as 10 of 11 coin flip winners won the game, but as always, the media was be completely disingenuous with this stat.

Only 7 of 11 had actually won the game with a TD. The Coin Flip Loseer got a possession in Overtime in 4 of 11. It's now 5 of 12. Also one of those Coin Flip Winner wins was a fluke 80 yard TD pass by Tim Tebow. Another was a possession where the Pats picked up TWO third and tens. This stat which has so skewed by the media is much closer to 50% than they would have you believe. If the Bengals can stop a team like the Chiefs from scoring a TD, there's no way that anybody should consider the coin flip to be dispositive.

And yes Moriarity, I don't consider any rule that eliminates the Packers TWICE to be a bizarre rationale for the rule. In fact, it should be immortalized in stone. Fucking Coin Flip Losers! ;) lol
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Yogi da Bear wrote: Tue Feb 01, 2022 10:07 pm
Only 7 of 11 had actually won the game with a TD.
Even still, it highly favors the receiving team as they get the additional extra chance at the extra possession if both Ds "do their job". It's pretty imbalanced.

And hey, end of the day, sometimes games have weird rule quirks, but this one is decided by a coin toss with no apparent strategic give or take. There's no good apparent reason to decide the edge that way.

I can't remember if I posted my full idea earlier or not but here is what I think is a pretty balanced idea.

This idea will
1. Respect clock management strategy
2. Remove any influence of a ceremonial coin toss
3. Respect the idea that its each team's job to play D
4. Limit impacts of possession edge.

Step 1. Remove coin toss from the game completely including beginning of game. Home team will decide to kick, receive, or direction. The team who kicks off regulation would also kick off for OT. Now teams do generally prefer to receive the second half kick. This requires them to accept a trade off for what is a clear preference. And as home team chooses, the team who earned it through record gets the edge on playoff games.
(Note you could end it here and I'd be somewhat satisfied just by removing a fucking coin flip for having a possible edge granted. But I have some further ideas)

Step 2. Determine the median "first to TD" time over OT history. Let's say this is 4:30 minutes. Add 1 minute. 5:30 minutes will become the length of the OT period. Each team gets 3 TO and a 2 minute clock stopage.

Now, what are the rules for OT? It's a full timed period. If the game is tied at the end of regulation, then the team who kicked off OT will possess first for the 2OT. 2OT is an untimed, sudden death period. First to score wins (FG or TD) in 2OT.

So what is the goal of all this?

1. Excitement! We recreate the best/tensest moments of football, a winding down clock with a close game in which one team is trying to score and not give their opponent too much time to respond.
2. Strategy! The coin toss has none. We create multiple strategic choices a team must weigh when deciding possession, all predetermined at the outset of the game. Who's gonna talk about OT rules when they can micromanage their head coaches strategic decisions!
3. Respect of possession balance. While football isn't strictly a possession based game like baseball, it partially is. Every regulation game ends with no more than a 1 possession edge. In both Chiefs games they had an opportunity to end the game with a 2 possession edge. I can respect D is part of the game, but any gain in possession edge should be gained by strategic/clock management, not a coin flip. KC getting the final reg possession to tie and then immediately getting the ball back? No logic to that. Just our weird obedience to a coin. We also add in a couple of concept of a OT half, like we do in regulation with possession flipping. Adds to the strategic decision. You can opt to take the ball first in OT so you can set the pace, but if you fail to gain the lead, now you are on the shit end of sudden death.
4. Clock management. The goal of the initial team to possess in OT is straight forward. Score without giving your opponent too much time to respond. This is how NFL end of games always work, yet we really remove any necessity for that in OT. What a missed opportunity. And if you take too long because you're too greedy, you could run out of time, and then give the other team the ball back with sudden death on the line in 2OT.
5. Brevity. While some have proposed playing a full OT period that does have the downside of unnecessarily extending games. The short OT period with sudden death after should keep things quick still, all whole creating exciting play on the field (fwiw I'd also just end regular season games in a tie at end of regulation).

Possible quirks/gimmicks to add:
A. If the initial team to possess in OT attempts a FG, a predetermined amount of time is added to the clock. This does go against the respect clock management ideal, but would be great for excitement. If KC sits on the clock and milks a FG, we set up a 30 second do or die drive for the other team. Not totally sold on this idea, but do like the idea of disincentivising teams to play for a OT FG (something most hated about the old OT rules)
B. A spin on part A. But just allow the defending team a one and done sudden death drive if the first team to possess kicks a FG on the first possession. If team 2 scores a TD, they win. If they kick a FG, it goes back to the other team again who now gains the sudden death possession edge.
C. Potentially do away with the automatic OT possession swap. Just play for continuation. This could have some negative clock management impacts at end of games, but not totally. Example. Let's say you run out of time with the ball at the 50 in regulation. You do get a fresh 5 minute clock to restart. Great field position with ample time to score. But you'll likely be handing the other team the ball back with plenty time to respond with a score themselves in OT. So you're still incentivized to score at end of regulation. I guess you'd still force a switch at 2OT. Does away with some of the possession balancing features though. So I could see this decision either way.

But overall, with these rules the first team to possess.
1. Earned the right to possess first based on their strategic decision in electing to receive first in regulation.
2. Still has a chance to basically end OT in a single possession. They just have to manage the clock appropriately to ensure little to no chance for the defending team to respond. Shifts the focus from "just play D" to also include "just manage the clock" to the offensive team.
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Keep regular season the same - make playoff OT the same as college, because that shit is nuts.
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Teddy KGB wrote: Wed Feb 02, 2022 12:00 am Keep regular season the same - make playoff OT the same as college, because that shit is nuts.
The Iron Bowl this year is one of the best college games I've ever seen.
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The Cooler King wrote: Tue Feb 01, 2022 11:36 pm
Yogi da Bear wrote: Tue Feb 01, 2022 10:07 pm
Only 7 of 11 had actually won the game with a TD.
Even still, it highly favors the receiving team as they get the additional extra chance at the extra possession if both Ds "do their job". It's pretty imbalanced.
If that's the case, why is the regular season win percentage for Coin Toss Winners only at 52.8%?

I think that the playoff win percentage is skewed by small sample size, a couple rather atypical results (Tebow and 2 picked up 3rd and tens--what's the percentage for picking those up) and media mendacity.
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Yogi da Bear wrote: Wed Feb 02, 2022 7:40 am
The Cooler King wrote: Tue Feb 01, 2022 11:36 pm
Even still, it highly favors the receiving team as they get the additional extra chance at the extra possession if both Ds "do their job". It's pretty imbalanced.
If that's the case, why is the regular season win percentage for Coin Toss Winners only at 52.8%?

I think that the playoff win percentage is skewed by small sample size, a couple rather atypical results (Tebow and 2 picked up 3rd and tens--what's the percentage for picking those up) and media mendacity.
I mean 2% ain't nothing and the coin toss loser isn't winning 48% of the time as there are ties.

Anyone should see how skewed the league rules are towards offense. But in the regular season, there's a lot more bad offenses and a lot more imbalance in talents accross teams. In the playoffs we generally have good offenses and more closely matched teams.

With the larger sample size to work off in the regular season, it would be interesting to look at not just the coin toss winner, but maybe expected results based on strength of team. If a crap team wins the toss, even a significant odds shift might still make a significantly better team a slight favorite. So we could look at something like point spread or offense/defense dvoa spread and see if, controlling for team difference, the coin toss was significantly moving odds even in the reguf season.
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Here's a random suggestion: How about teams being given a succession of 2 minute drills with 2 time outs?

Each team has to match the other team's score for the game to continue or beat it for the game to end. So:
  • If the first team fails to score then the second team wins if they score a TD or FG. If the second team also fails to score then the game continues with the first team getting another drive with 2 minutes on the clock.
  • If the first team scores a FG then the second team loses if they don't score, wins if they score a TD or the game continues if they also kick a FG.
  • If the first team scores a TD then the second team has to also score a TD for the game to continue.
It would keep the game quick, with teams playing their hurry up offense, and retain the essential clock management element whilst being equal to both teams.
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Richie wrote: Tue Feb 01, 2022 6:05 pm
I think the "only 7 of those 10 wins were because of a TD scored on the first possession" is a pretty important figure. People seem to be operating under the assumption that the reason teams who win the coin flip win in the post-season, as being due to the fact that they just go down, score a TD, and the loser of the coin flip never gets a chance to touch the ball. That statistic pretty much does away with that point of view.
I don't think it's that important.

I don't know the exact circumstances, but I'm guessing and let's suppose the 11 games played out this way:


7 - flip winner won on first possession (1 vs 0)
1 - flip loser won on their first possession (each got 1, ie, 1 vs 1)
3 - flip winner won on on their second possession (2 vs 1)


That would make the total number of possessions for the flip winners 14 vs 4 for the flip losers.
Or you could say: 13 vs 3 in situations where the flip winner won & 1 vs 1 in situations where the flip winner lost.
That's pretty hugely imbalanced.


(Even if I've guessed wrong about the number of possessions in the second and third lines, it only tightens up a little and you still have a sizable imbalance.)
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HisRoyalSweetness wrote: Wed Feb 02, 2022 9:43 am Here's a random suggestion: How about teams being given a succession of 2 minute drills with 2 time outs?

Each team has to match the other team's score for the game to continue or beat it for the game to end. So:
  • If the first team fails to score then the second team wins if they score a TD or FG. If the second team also fails to score then the game continues with the first team getting another drive with 2 minutes on the clock.
  • If the first team scores a FG then the second team loses if they don't score, wins if they score a TD or the game continues if they also kick a FG.
  • If the first team scores a TD then the second team has to also score a TD for the game to continue.
It would keep the game quick, with teams playing their hurry up offense, and retain the essential clock management element whilst being equal to both teams.
Its basically college OT with a clock. Which is better, but I do think you risk endless shout outs where player injury and stuff becomes a concern. So I get the idea that sudden death becomes practical. This is why I like my idea of having a relatively short OT period played in full, then followed by sudden death, as you can flip the possession balance and add some legitimate strategy/trade off on recieiving first or not.
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Moriarty wrote: Wed Feb 02, 2022 11:24 am
Richie wrote: Tue Feb 01, 2022 6:05 pm
I think the "only 7 of those 10 wins were because of a TD scored on the first possession" is a pretty important figure. People seem to be operating under the assumption that the reason teams who win the coin flip win in the post-season, as being due to the fact that they just go down, score a TD, and the loser of the coin flip never gets a chance to touch the ball. That statistic pretty much does away with that point of view.
I don't think it's that important.

I don't know the exact circumstances, but I'm guessing and let's suppose the 11 games played out this way:


7 - flip winner won on first possession (1 vs 0)
1 - flip loser won on their first possession (each got 1, ie, 1 vs 1)
3 - flip winner won on on their second possession (2 vs 1)


That would make the total number of possessions for the flip winners 14 vs 4 for the flip losers.
Or you could say: 13 vs 3 in situations where the flip winner won & 1 vs 1 in situations where the flip winner lost.
That's pretty hugely imbalanced.


(Even if I've guessed wrong about the number of possessions in the second and third lines, it only tightens up a little and you still have a sizable imbalance.)
Did the losing team have a chance NOT to allow the flip winner to drive 70-80 yards with the game on the line? Do you think it is also unfair that the team who loses the coin flip only needs to drive for a FG to win on their first overtime possession?

When the Bears have allowed a team to drive right down and score a TD with the game on the line. Never, have I ever been upset that they didn't get a chance with the ball after. I was pissed that our D folded like a lawn chair in a big situation.

7 is 63% of 11. I'm sure there's many things that transpire in the course of a football game that give a team a 63% of more advantage to win. I am also sure that many of those have to with rules/penalties/etc that COULD theoretically be amended. It's not a big enough advantage where you should rewrite an entire process over it. You DO get a chance to make a stop and then merely kick a FG to win.

We just saw it happen in a conference title games against the best offense in recent history.

I personally would like to see teams simply play another quarter. However, then people will just b*tch that it's not reasonable to make teams have to potentially do that multiple times in a season. It also may result in an increase in ties, which will also invoke b*tching.

At the end of the day, there is no perfect OT system. The one we have in place is fine and I've never watched a game where I felt a team was slighted. I used to (somewhat) feel that way, in the true sudden death days, when a team would win the toss and move the ball a mere 40-50 yards to the oppositions 34-35 yard line. To simply kick a field goal after being stopped short of even reaching the opposing team's red zone. But nowadays? You let a team go RIGHT down the field on you? Season on the line? Eh. Your D cost you the game. You lost. It's fair.
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I must confess that I was against any rule changes, but after seeing the new rules take effect in the Super Bowl, I have to confess that I really, really like them, and I was routing for the Niners. What a great game though, and the new rules just bring in a whole new layer of strategy, involving whether you take the ball first or not.

If you take the ball first, you have a chance to win in sudden death if the game is tied after the first two possessions. But if you take the ball second, you have the chance to see what the other team does. Do you have to go for the TD or can you settle on a field goal to win? If the Niners took the ball second, they would not have kicked the field goal and gone for a TD for the tie. But if they then tied, KC could have won with a score on their next possession. All in all, a really good rule change.
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Yogi da Bear wrote: Wed Feb 14, 2024 9:43 am I must confess that I was against any rule changes, but after seeing the new rules take effect in the Super Bowl, I have to confess that I really, really like them, and I was routing for the Niners. What a great game though, and the new rules just bring in a whole new layer of strategy, involving whether you take the ball first or not.

If you take the ball first, you have a chance to win in sudden death if the game is tied after the first two possessions. But if you take the ball second, you have the chance to see what the other team does. Do you have to go for the TD or can you settle on a field goal to win? If the Niners took the ball second, they would not have kicked the field goal and gone for a TD for the tie. But if they then tied, KC could have won with a score on their next possession. All in all, a really good rule change.
100% I love it and am really glad that it played out like this!
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I think the main thing the NFL needs to do is have one consistent set of overtime rules.

The Super Bowl method of "each team gets the ball no matter what" is fine, so just...leave it alone. Have it be that. If anything there will be more impetus on teams going for two in overtime to secure a victory, and if they get matched, the fight goes on until time expires and a tie is declared.
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It worked well, it’s a good move.

I have a question though, why is there a time limit on OT and what happens in the following scenarios:

• It’s still level after 15 mins?
• The team with the first possession takes 14 mins and 59 seconds to score a FG?
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Ditka’s dictaphone wrote: Wed Feb 14, 2024 12:28 pm It worked well, it’s a good move.

I have a question though, why is there a time limit on OT and what happens in the following scenarios:

• It’s still level after 15 mins?
• The team with the first possession takes 14 mins and 59 seconds to score a FG?
I believe the game just continues with another period of OT, the same is it would have done under the old rules in the playoffs if neither team scored. Teams keep playing until one wins the sudden death scenario.

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Yogi da Bear wrote: Wed Feb 14, 2024 9:43 am I must confess that I was against any rule changes, but after seeing the new rules take effect in the Super Bowl, I have to confess that I really, really like them, and I was routing for the Niners. What a great game though, and the new rules just bring in a whole new layer of strategy, involving whether you take the ball first or not.

If you take the ball first, you have a chance to win in sudden death if the game is tied after the first two possessions. But if you take the ball second, you have the chance to see what the other team does. Do you have to go for the TD or can you settle on a field goal to win? If the Niners took the ball second, they would not have kicked the field goal and gone for a TD for the tie. But if they then tied, KC could have won with a score on their next possession. All in all, a really good rule change.
I like the fact that each team gets a chance at scoring no matter what, rather than sudden death to start. I agreed with Shanahan to take the first possession. The KC defense was tired, and the SF offense finally remembered their running game and marched down the field. It also gave the SF defense some time to rest. For the Niners, Purdy was ineffective in the redzone the whole game. In spite of the Niner defense forcing some third and longs, Mahomes kept wiggling out of them. Once KC got to the redzone you knew they were going to score a TD. Unfortunately for the Niners the refs were letting KC OL get away with some holding, moreso than just in regulation.

So it was a good rule change. Teams playing against Mahomes in the postseason need to win in regulation, as you don't want to give #15 the ball in OT.
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