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The Cooler King
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Yogi da Bear wrote: Sat May 14, 2022 9:07 am
Tell me he's not "explosive."
He's not explosive.
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Grizzled
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As good as some think he is, are you paying him $12M per year? Perhaps $10M? $6 or $8M isn't getting it done. I like Monty, he's a gamer, he played at my alma mater (go Chase Allen) but he's going to ask for top dollars. If he carries the team, i.e. 1400 yards or so and 600 to 700 yards receiving, maybe.
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Yogi da Bear
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The Cooler King wrote: Sat May 14, 2022 9:37 am
Yogi da Bear wrote: Sat May 14, 2022 9:07 am
Tell me he's not "explosive."
He's not explosive.
Lol I guess I asked for that but:

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Grizzled wrote: Sat May 14, 2022 9:47 am As good as some think he is, are you paying him $12M per year? Perhaps $10M? $6 or $8M isn't getting it done. I like Monty, he's a gamer, he played at my alma mater (go Chase Allen) but he's going to ask for top dollars. If he carries the team, i.e. 1400 yards or so and 600 to 700 yards receiving, maybe.
If he gets 2000 plus total yards, I pay him 10-12 mill. Not much more though. With those numbers, I have no problem giving him a Joe Mixon level contract.
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I think 8 gets it done, and yea I’d pay him that. If he gets 2K yards it’ll cost more like 10, and if he was that good then I’d pay that also.
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Because he's been so durable, I'm willing to guarantee 100% of his next deal.


And on that deal, I am currently willing to go up to a maximum of 1 yr/1.08M
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Running back is the ultimate next man up position in the NFL. If the Bears ever want to change who they are, they need to understand this and move on(among many other things as well). I love watching Monty too. Doesn't mean that it's smart to pay a running back.
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Seeing that Getsy is from a team where the 6th round back beat out the higher round pick (Jamal Williams) and then got extended for producing at a high level even though they drafted his ostensible replacement... I'm going to guess that Getsy is going to give every back on that depth chart a chance to win the job by earning it. I wouldn't be surprised at all if he largely platoons a rotation of 2-4 RBs until the cream rises to the top. I could see Monty getting first opportunity but could also see him losing touches to more explosive players as the season goes on.

I don't see his receiving as being something that keeps the other backs on the bench (they're all at least as good). His blocking for JF1 could weigh more heavily than I've been giving him credit for. But I can't imagine extending a RB for mostly that reason.
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dplank wrote: Thu May 12, 2022 7:06 am My bad guys I had no idea - seems such an odd take. Question: why does every other player get the McNagy consideration but not Monty? Also, assuming you watched the games and aren’t just reading stat sheets, how do you account for him getting bum rushed at or behind the LOS so often?
IMO, Nagy had the MOST adverse effect on Montgomery last year--out of all the "skill" guys. (Robinson's issues were predominately his own.)

Also, using career stats to define Montgomery isn't a good gauge, as he looked like a bust (or close to it) until Nagy gave up the playcalling. We'll see what he does next year. I'd be willing to bet he plays well enough to warrant an extension, and cap space won't be an issue come '23.
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IE wrote: Wed May 11, 2022 12:37 pm
Bearfacts wrote: Wed May 11, 2022 11:25 am Looking at Monty's stats from Pro Football Reference the one thing that pops out above all else is the number of 1st down carries and receptions he's gotten. We've seen this in his highlight videos as well. He has an acute awareness of where the sticks are and he fights to get to or over them. Right now we don't have another back who can do that or score on shorter yardage runs like he does.

Does he lack explosiveness? He's rung up some long runs before including an 80 yarder for a score. But again that's not why he was drafted. He was drafted for what I referred to in my first paragraph and I will continue to insist that a team who wants to return to running the ball far more than Nagy did and is willing to build the right kind of OL to do it with can always use a back like Monty.

Whether or not Poles elects to extend him will in all likelihood depend upon the price but IMHO he's a much better back than Howard was and he's a better #1 back than Khalil Herbert.
Assuming Ebner makes the final roster between him and Herbert we'll have two other backs who may give us the kind of explosiveness some believe we need but we also nee and every down tough back who can catch and that's what Monty brings to the table week in and week out. IMHO it would be a mistake to lose him in this offense.
How do you know with such certainty that Juice, Ebner, Blasingame or Evans can't punch the ball in from 3-4 yards? How do you KNOW he's a better RB than Herbert? That's just pure opinion, and completely unsubstantiated. I've seen Nagy have Monty run 2 or even 3 times on the goal line to get in. We've all watched the same games. I know how hard Monty works. But you have no basis for saying what you're saying, other than "Nagy handed him the ball instead of his Rookie 6th rounder". Which, in itself, does NOT justify what you said. Aaron Jones was a late round back. Maybe the difference between the Pack and the Bears is the Pack plays the guys who can deliver the most?

We have to stop taking the 2-3 long runs Monty has ripped off and interpolating that into an implication "he can do that" on a regular basis. It is a fact that he does not do that nearly enough - the long runs are what balance out the short stops to result in a higher ypc. Please show me any stat that shows Monty deserves to be known for making long runs. I'm dying to find something to hang my hat on there... but the more I look the more convinced I am that he is JAG. JAG with heart is still JAG. Just like Joique Bell and Jordan Howard were JAG even though with enough carries and heart they compiled numbers and had a lot of fans.

Which is exactly why my post said IMHO (in my honest opinion). Other things I posted are facts such as his stats and his toughness as a runner whose been counted on to handle short yardage and goal line (inside the five) carries. His rushing TDs and his carries for a 1st down are a testament to that. Much of what I post, much of what we all post is no more than our opinion. I just do my best to back mine up with why I have the opinions I do.

As for long runs there again I wrote that he has posted some long runs. One and 80 yard TD run. I never posted or even implied that he was "know for it" or deserves to be recognized as a threat to score every time he touches that ball. Monty is a very effective workhorse RB who can also catch as receiver. What the others are capable of is hard to say when we have little to go by with a couple of them but I'm not dissing any of them.
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Bearfacts wrote: Sun May 15, 2022 4:13 pm
IE wrote: Wed May 11, 2022 12:37 pm

How do you know with such certainty that Juice, Ebner, Blasingame or Evans can't punch the ball in from 3-4 yards? How do you KNOW he's a better RB than Herbert? That's just pure opinion, and completely unsubstantiated. I've seen Nagy have Monty run 2 or even 3 times on the goal line to get in. We've all watched the same games. I know how hard Monty works. But you have no basis for saying what you're saying, other than "Nagy handed him the ball instead of his Rookie 6th rounder". Which, in itself, does NOT justify what you said. Aaron Jones was a late round back. Maybe the difference between the Pack and the Bears is the Pack plays the guys who can deliver the most?

We have to stop taking the 2-3 long runs Monty has ripped off and interpolating that into an implication "he can do that" on a regular basis. It is a fact that he does not do that nearly enough - the long runs are what balance out the short stops to result in a higher ypc. Please show me any stat that shows Monty deserves to be known for making long runs. I'm dying to find something to hang my hat on there... but the more I look the more convinced I am that he is JAG. JAG with heart is still JAG. Just like Joique Bell and Jordan Howard were JAG even though with enough carries and heart they compiled numbers and had a lot of fans.

Which is exactly why my post said IMHO (in my honest opinion). Other things I posted are facts such as his stats and his toughness as a runner whose been counted on to handle short yardage and goal line (inside the five) carries. His rushing TDs and his carries for a 1st down are a testament to that. Much of what I post, much of what we all post is no more than our opinion. I just do my best to back mine up with why I have the opinions I do.

As for long runs there again I wrote that he has posted some long runs. One and 80 yard TD run. I never posted or even implied that he was "know for it" or deserves to be recognized as a threat to score every time he touches that ball. Monty is a very effective workhorse RB who can also catch as receiver. What the others are capable of is hard to say when we have little to go by with a couple of them but I'm not dissing any of them.
I get it - everyone shares opinions. They just sort of come across as more than that when they are shared with such certainty. And your name is "bearFACTS". ;)

There's nothing wrong with just liking a player even though statistically they don't produce as much as some others. TDs and first down carries and long runs... all that is great, but "compared to who?" Reality is, Monty's stats are closer to those of Joique Bell than Aaron Jones. And some Lions fans really loved Bell as a Lion. But just remember if you fall in love with a player who can't do quite as much with as much opportunity, you're also choosing to make the team lesser and that does reflect in wins and losses.
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Aaron Jones? Aaron Fucking Jones? WTF?!

I can understand if you said something like "Derrick Henry" or "Jonathan Taylor," but "Aaron Jones?" WTF. Jones is not any faster than Monty is now. In fact, I think he's much slower. And he doesn't have near the moves or the power. Jones succeeds because of Rodgers and the Packer OL. Monty succeeds DESPITE our OL and QB play. You put Jones on the Bears and he'd average less than 3 ypc. Stop judging solely by stats and use your own eyes.



Aaron Jones? What a fucking joke.
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Dude, Monty accomplished plenty with the hand he was dealt. You’re also making claims of certainty that many disagree with, and a purely statistical view of any offensive player in the McNagy era is foolish IMO - the entire offense was broken, that will impact everyone’s numbers. Let’s see how his stats look in Getsy’s offense before we Joique Bell his ass.
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Things I'd rather use next seasons money on besides a running back(ANY running back)

Each and every offensive line position
A wide receiver or 3
A tight end or two
A few defensive lineman
Roquan Smith
A corner or safety if the young guys dont work out
Maybe another linebacker
Space for JF's future contract

if there is room after that for Monty sure. But he should be pretty far down everyone's priority list IMO. Id like to know why any one wants to pay a running back(any running back) when the league has shown over and over again for 20? years that it isnt worth it.
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Yogi da Bear wrote: Mon May 16, 2022 8:07 am Aaron Jones? Aaron Fucking Jones? WTF?!

I can understand if you said something like "Derrick Henry" or "Jonathan Taylor," but "Aaron Jones?" WTF. Jones is not any faster than Monty is now. In fact, I think he's much slower. And he doesn't have near the moves or the power. Jones succeeds because of Rodgers and the Packer OL. Monty succeeds DESPITE our OL and QB play. You put Jones on the Bears and he'd average less than 3 ypc. Stop judging solely by stats and use your own eyes.

Aaron Jones? What a fucking joke.
Again - this is why I say the eye test is nearly worthless.

Jones
40: 4.49/4.56/4.58, avg 4.54
C: 6.82
S: 4.20
V: 36.5/37.5
B: 10'7

Monty
40: 4.55/4.58/4.63, avg 4.59
C: 7.12
S: 4.23
V: 28.5/33.5
B: 10'1


You gotta at least take the Homer Goggles off when you're looking.
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Yogi da Bear
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Roquan Smith is priority #1 right now.
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Moriarty wrote: Mon May 16, 2022 9:46 am
Yogi da Bear wrote: Mon May 16, 2022 8:07 am Aaron Jones? Aaron Fucking Jones? WTF?!

I can understand if you said something like "Derrick Henry" or "Jonathan Taylor," but "Aaron Jones?" WTF. Jones is not any faster than Monty is now. In fact, I think he's much slower. And he doesn't have near the moves or the power. Jones succeeds because of Rodgers and the Packer OL. Monty succeeds DESPITE our OL and QB play. You put Jones on the Bears and he'd average less than 3 ypc. Stop judging solely by stats and use your own eyes.

Aaron Jones? What a fucking joke.
Again - this is why I say the eye test is nearly worthless.

Jones
40: 4.49/4.56/4.58, avg 4.54
C: 6.82
S: 4.20
V: 36.5/37.5
B: 10'7

Monty
40: 4.55/4.58/4.63, avg 4.59
C: 7.12
S: 4.23
V: 28.5/33.5
B: 10'1


You gotta at least take the Homer Goggles off when you're looking.
And this is why I said, "right now." Monty is purportedly at a 4.4 something right now. You need to take your Monty Hating Goggles off.
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Yogi da Bear wrote: Mon May 16, 2022 9:50 am
And this is why I said, "right now." Monty is purportedly at a 4.4 something right now. You need to take your Monty Hating Goggles off.
https://www.audacy.com/670thescore/spor ... -as-runner
Since he started working with Korfist, Montgomery hasn't run a true timed 40-yard dash. But Korfist estimates that Montgomery is now at a 4.44 mark
Yeah...another eye test from a totally unbiased observer.

Makes you wonder why scouts even bother bringing stopwatches, when you can just make precise distinctions of .2 second, just by watching and estimating.
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I think Herbert is going to look so good that some of the shine will come off Monty
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I think Darrynton Evans is going to surprise people too (if healthy). He was a really good prospect coming out.
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crueltyabc wrote: Mon May 16, 2022 12:15 pm I think Herbert is going to look so good that some of the shine will come off Monty
This would be a best case scenario for us - having a great back and not having to pay Monty just gives us all that much more financial flexibility to load up elsewhere.
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wab wrote: Mon May 16, 2022 12:21 pm I think Darrynton Evans is going to surprise people too (if healthy). He was a really good prospect coming out.
I've been kinda underwhelmed by Poles' budget pickups, but that one I like.
I'm surprised TEN quit on him so quickly.
Evans missed the team's first six games while on Injured Reserve with a knee injury. He was activated for the team's game against the Chiefs this past Sunday, when he carried the ball two times for seven yards while also catching two passes for 11 yards. Evans ended up playing six snaps on offense vs the Chiefs, along with two plays on special teams.

A third-round pick by the Titans in the 2020 NFL Draft out of Appalachian State who played in five games during his rookie season, Evans practiced on Wednesday, and he spoke to reporters before practice about being excited to be back in the mix. But Evans was added to the Injury Report again on Thursday with a knee injury and listed as a limited participant at the conclusion of practice. The team decided to place him on IR today.
You wonder if there was some bad blood on one or both sides relative to the return and it not working out.
The other possibility, of course, is that his knee really is messed up.
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Moriarty wrote: Mon May 16, 2022 12:58 pm
wab wrote: Mon May 16, 2022 12:21 pm I think Darrynton Evans is going to surprise people too (if healthy). He was a really good prospect coming out.
I've been kinda underwhelmed by Poles' budget pickups, but that one I like.
I'm surprised TEN quit on him so quickly.
Evans missed the team's first six games while on Injured Reserve with a knee injury. He was activated for the team's game against the Chiefs this past Sunday, when he carried the ball two times for seven yards while also catching two passes for 11 yards. Evans ended up playing six snaps on offense vs the Chiefs, along with two plays on special teams.

A third-round pick by the Titans in the 2020 NFL Draft out of Appalachian State who played in five games during his rookie season, Evans practiced on Wednesday, and he spoke to reporters before practice about being excited to be back in the mix. But Evans was added to the Injury Report again on Thursday with a knee injury and listed as a limited participant at the conclusion of practice. The team decided to place him on IR today.
You wonder if there was some bad blood on one or both sides relative to the return and it not working out.
The other possibility, of course, is that his knee really is messed up.
I wonder. Liked him too, but after that game against KC he didn’t play again. Even when Henry went down.
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A great 40 times is awesome, and helps with the breakaways that increase ypc of course (and TDs). Monty's speed AT speed is conspicuously improved. But that speed coach Monty is using is teaching him to sprint not cut back or otherwise quickly change direction - and those things will become even more important in the new system. I'm not sure you can teach the things that make a guy quicker/more explosive. Those things are also a bit more valuable in traffic, and what you need to get through more often than not before you kick in the sprint speed.

I know when reading something you don't like it is easy to conclude "hater"... but there are zero Monty haters. Nobody hates him, @Yogi da Bear. Blame the stats not the people sharing them.

Monty's going to have a full opportunity, and everyone will be rooting for him to be really improved. I'll be looking for a Bear RB that can get around 4.5 ypc or more, and I really don't care if it is Monty or not. I don't even care if it is one guy - personally, I think I'd prefer a platooned system that has guys all getting a reasonable chance and competing hard for touches & getting them based on production.

On Evans... I think he's a good example of Poles' concept of getting guys with a chip on their shoulder. They may have known each other for a while, and who knows maybe Poles knew Evans felt he wasn't getting a fair shot or wasn't in the right place for him. There is something dysfunctional about Tennessee in my view. I'm not a Tanny fan and they seem to be coached/managed weirdly IMO. Of course it is hard to go wrong with Henry... so Vrable and friends have shine.
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IE wrote: Mon May 16, 2022 1:54 pm A great 40 times is awesome, and helps with the breakaways that increase ypc of course (and TDs). Monty's speed AT speed is conspicuously improved. But that speed coach Monty is using is teaching him to sprint not cut back or otherwise quickly change direction - and those things will become even more important in the new system. I'm not sure you can teach the things that make a guy quicker/more explosive. Those things are also a bit more valuable in traffic, and what you need to get through more often than not before you kick in the sprint speed.

I know when reading something you don't like it is easy to conclude "hater"... but there are zero Monty haters. Nobody hates him, @Yogi da Bear. Blame the stats not the people sharing them.

Monty's going to have a full opportunity, and everyone will be rooting for him to be really improved. I'll be looking for a Bear RB that can get around 4.5 ypc or more, and I really don't care if it is Monty or not. I don't even care if it is one guy - personally, I think I'd prefer a platooned system that has guys all getting a reasonable chance and competing hard for touches & getting them based on production.

On Evans... I think he's a good example of Poles' concept of getting guys with a chip on their shoulder. They may have known each other for a while, and who knows maybe Poles knew Evans felt he wasn't getting a fair shot or wasn't in the right place for him. There is something dysfunctional about Tennessee in my view. I'm not a Tanny fan and they seem to be coached/managed weirdly IMO. Of course it is hard to go wrong with Henry... so Vrable and friends have shine.
This is getting weird. So, can I blame the stats and hate Fields too? His stats were laughably bad. How about CPat - his stats sucked here then magically he was a rock star a year later in Atlanta? Did CPat "improve" or did he just land in a better offense? Epically bad take bud, time to let it go and let's just see how he does in a proper offense.
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Had to post this separate - some bug....but re: 4.5 YPC, that is a lofty goal. RB's last year that had sub 4.5 YPC include: Derrick Henry, Joe Mixon, Ezekial Elliott, Alvin Kamara, etc etc. I'd like to see big improvement on YPC also but it's not a holy grail for evaluation IMO. There are just too many other factors involved in achieving that number.
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BearsFanInMN wrote: Mon May 16, 2022 1:50 pm
I wonder. Liked him too, but after that game against KC he didn’t play again. Even when Henry went down.
After KC, he wasn't eligible anymore.
They put him back on IR, and after a second IR placement you're automatically out for the full year.


Either he reinjured it very quickly
or he didn't feel right running on it and someone(?) decided he was so far from ready, they might as well scrap the season.

I'm imagining (just as a possibility) a Kyle Fuller type scenario, where the team was insistent that he was fine, he didn't really agree but reluctantly tried it, didn't feel right, wanted more time, and they got disgusted, IRed him, and cut him in the offseason.
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dplank wrote: Mon May 16, 2022 1:59 pm
IE wrote: Mon May 16, 2022 1:54 pm A great 40 times is awesome, and helps with the breakaways that increase ypc of course (and TDs). Monty's speed AT speed is conspicuously improved. But that speed coach Monty is using is teaching him to sprint not cut back or otherwise quickly change direction - and those things will become even more important in the new system. I'm not sure you can teach the things that make a guy quicker/more explosive. Those things are also a bit more valuable in traffic, and what you need to get through more often than not before you kick in the sprint speed.

I know when reading something you don't like it is easy to conclude "hater"... but there are zero Monty haters. Nobody hates him, Yogi da Bear. Blame the stats not the people sharing them.

Monty's going to have a full opportunity, and everyone will be rooting for him to be really improved. I'll be looking for a Bear RB that can get around 4.5 ypc or more, and I really don't care if it is Monty or not. I don't even care if it is one guy - personally, I think I'd prefer a platooned system that has guys all getting a reasonable chance and competing hard for touches & getting them based on production.

On Evans... I think he's a good example of Poles' concept of getting guys with a chip on their shoulder. They may have known each other for a while, and who knows maybe Poles knew Evans felt he wasn't getting a fair shot or wasn't in the right place for him. There is something dysfunctional about Tennessee in my view. I'm not a Tanny fan and they seem to be coached/managed weirdly IMO. Of course it is hard to go wrong with Henry... so Vrable and friends have shine.
This is getting weird. So, can I blame the stats and hate Fields too? His stats were laughably bad. How about CPat - his stats sucked here then magically he was a rock star a year later in Atlanta? Did CPat "improve" or did he just land in a better offense? Epically bad take bud, time to let it go and let's just see how he does in a proper offense.
Jesus H I just posted about people irresponsibly using the term hater - and there you go.

Let go of what? Let go of stats? I don't see the trial by fire and no preparation situation for Fields as being analogous - sorry not at all. Apples and oranges.

Now, on CPatt.... he averaged 4.1 ypc on the Bears in 2 years and 4.0 last year. He didn't get better as a RB he was just used more. Maybe Nagy should have used CPatt on goal to go who knows. CPatt's emergence last year was mostly in the passing game of the backfield and screens, where he had good opportunity made big plays and demonstrated a nose for the end zone. Monty caught arguably almost as many passes (from a few yards more depth on average) but didn't find the end zone once as a receiver. Not once. I'm not giving Nagy a pass for not using CPatt like others have. I fully blame him. I just don't think your point about him is valid, and I don't think we're going to see an epiphany from Monty like that.

IF Monty does better in this new offense that would be great. What should we expect? 10% improvement? That would also apply to Herbert - so if Monty improves his 3.8 ypc to 4.18 then we can assume Juice's will go from 4.2 to 4.62? 20% would get Monty up to the 4.5 ypc I expect from a load back who a team defaults to handing the ball to. But that would put Herbert up into 5.0 ypc range. Herbert had over 100 carries - his sample is not absurdly small - he demonstrated skill and vision. He had 4 carries over 20 yards to Monty's 5 in less than half the opportunity.

So then we still want to pay Monty $10MM and give him 100 more carries for what reason.... ?
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dplank wrote: Mon May 16, 2022 2:04 pm Had to post this separate - some bug....but re: 4.5 YPC, that is a lofty goal. RB's last year that had sub 4.5 YPC include: Derrick Henry, Joe Mixon, Ezekial Elliott, Alvin Kamara, etc etc. I'd like to see big improvement on YPC also but it's not a holy grail for evaluation IMO. There are just too many other factors involved in achieving that number.
Any number you pick is kind of arbitrary. And basing everything on that one stat alone, without considering any others is a bit silly. I could certainly live with less than 4.5.

However, keeping the starting job after yet another sub 4.0 season is totally, completely, nonnegotiably out of the question in my book. 3/4 below 4 is just rancid. I would bet there's not a back in the league that performed like that and kept starting.
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Moriarty wrote: Mon May 16, 2022 2:40 pm
dplank wrote: Mon May 16, 2022 2:04 pm Had to post this separate - some bug....but re: 4.5 YPC, that is a lofty goal. RB's last year that had sub 4.5 YPC include: Derrick Henry, Joe Mixon, Ezekial Elliott, Alvin Kamara, etc etc. I'd like to see big improvement on YPC also but it's not a holy grail for evaluation IMO. There are just too many other factors involved in achieving that number.
Any number you pick is kind of arbitrary. And basing everything on that one stat alone, without considering any others is a bit silly. I could certainly live with less than 4.5.

However, keeping the starting job after yet another sub 4.0 season is totally, completely, nonnegotiably out of the question in my book. 3/4 below 4 is just rancid. I would bet there's not a back in the league that performed like that and kept starting.
Yeah, you're right - I'll take responsibility for bringing up ypc expectations. IMO it is more a derivative metric, and to get to that level or above you have to have a comparatively larger number of longer carries. Whether it is more 10 yarders or taking more to the house - you're delivering more, more often. So that's what I was getting at.

What might be a viable scenario for Monty is to have him become a James Conner-like guy who can get the yards when needed and demonstrate a Conner-like nose for the end zone in Getsy's new offense. His ypc and receiving stats were VERY similar to Monty, and he earned a deal in the range that is being discussed for extending Monty. 18 Touchdowns is what it took (15 rushing on 200 carries). And things like catching 35 of 37 targets. I believe if he had 7- 9 TDs they wouldn't have re-signed him and moved on because his efficiency wouldn't justify his value over replacement. I'm also using Aaron Jones an example these days as well, because in spite of his Conner and Monty-like speed he has put up more ypc and found the end zone a LOT prior to Dillon coming in and vulturing some (and Getsy was on that staff). So that's the analogy I'm using. I'm hoping Monty can put up 12-15 TDs and might need to do so to get extended.
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