Tom Thayer on Justin Fields and the offense

[Bears Whiskey Nut]

So like a crap ton more plays and looks than 4-5 overall because 4-5 overall is very very very stupid


Maybe you have a Pop Warner clip explaining why the forward pass is going to ruin the game?

Tom Thayer was not saying that an NFL offense should only run 4-5 plays. Literally no one thinks that. He was using an illustrative example to make a point.

Illustrative or hyperbolic points really aren't Rich's thing. It's literal translation or nothing.

[thunderspirit]

Tom Thayer was not saying that an NFL offense should only run 4-5 plays. Literally no one thinks that. He was using an illustrative example to make a point.

Illustrative or hyperbolic points really aren't Rich's thing. It's literal translation or nothing.

Reading Rich's posts when he's like this be like:

[RichH55]

Tom Thayer was not saying that an NFL offense should only run 4-5 plays. Literally no one thinks that. He was using an illustrative example to make a point.

Illustrative or hyperbolic points really aren't Rich's thing. It's literal translation or nothing.

I watched the clip - it was mainly cliches - the chief one on the 4-5 plays in no way resembles today's game - Hell - not even todays college game (and that really was a staple back in the day)

Toughness? Sure. Go for it.

If people want Mike Singletary at Coach dropping his pants at halftime - go for it.

I also don't want to run Vince Lombardi's offense. But for some reason I was told to argue with a man whose been dead for 50+ years - and the person took that as owning me I guess?

NFL teams not lining up for this BTW

[RichH55]

So like a crap ton more plays and looks than 4-5 overall because 4-5 overall is very very very stupid


Maybe you have a Pop Warner clip explaining why the forward pass is going to ruin the game?

You're probably right. What we really need is two or three dozen plays with lots of moving parts to make absolutely certain that at least one or two guys will blow their assignment.
Make sure everyone is overthinking instead of executing.
Otherwise we might look stupid.

No - that would make us look "Heroic"

[RichH55]

From a good ringer post that IE found

"During the NFC championship game, Juszczyk lined up in a different spot on the Niners’ first eight offensive plays"

Breaking Tom Thayer's heart there

[Bears Whiskey Nut]

From a good ringer post that IE found

"During the NFC championship game, Juszczyk lined up in a different spot on the Niners’ first eight offensive plays"

Breaking Tom Thayer's heart there

Where you line up, and what play you ultimately run, are two TOTALLY different things. I can line my TE up wherever I want, and still run the same 10 yard crossing route to my slot receiver.

[RichH55]

From a good ringer post that IE found

"During the NFC championship game, Juszczyk lined up in a different spot on the Niners’ first eight offensive plays"

Breaking Tom Thayer's heart there

Where you line up, and what play you ultimately run, are two TOTALLY different things. I can line my TE up wherever I want, and still run the same 10 yard crossing route to my slot receiver.

Completely fair point - and yes I also know this to be a nice component of the spread (similar plays but different looks)

This wasn't the Tom Thayer special though

You are going to want to have route combos too - etc etc - You don't want your slot WR running the same 10 Yard crossing route every time. Hell - some of the time you are going to want to see the look the Defense is in and then have an option route for that WR

These DCoordinators work 100 hour weeks - whereas "Film" was a competitive advantage for Paul Brown.

You want to run Vince Lombardi's offense (TALK TO HIM!) - you are getting destroyed at the higher levels of football

[dplank]

You are arguing with yourself here. No one thinks we should run 5 plays. Nor does anyone think we should run 5,000.

I agree with Thayers actual point - Nagy over complicated the offense (I think we all agree on this). And he thinks we will play better if we simplify things (agree).

[Bears Whiskey Nut]

You are arguing with yourself here. No one thinks we should run 5 plays. Nor does anyone think we should run 5,000.

I agree with Thayers actual point - Nagy over complicated the offense (I think we all agree on this). And he thinks we will play better if we simplify things (agree).

It's one of his many talents.

[RichH55]

You are arguing with yourself here. No one thinks we should run 5 plays. Nor does anyone think we should run 5,000.

I agree with Thayers actual point - Nagy over complicated the offense (I think we all agree on this). And he thinks we will play better if we simplify things (agree).

Cue the first game under this approach with 150 Yards of Total Offense because if you are only running a handful of plays and its KIND of like NFL Defenses will eat that up with a Spoon

Johnny for Des Plaines you're on the Score!

"Yeah - they are just too predictable. When you only have 2 run plays - the Defense is ready for it no matter how "perfect" your practice"

Great point Johnny - I guess Getsy just doesn't Get it!

Ugh.

Nagy from my point of view wasn't the number of plays (oh no!). But just his feel as a play caller - plus the Offense itself (Talent wise and QB knowledge wise)

He always seemed to lack Flow (either getting too much away from the Running Game or just deciding its time to check off the run - so we run 7 out of 9, but the Defense knows its coming)- AND failures to adjust (never seemed a strength)

This offense - with MORE plays - has served multiple HC around the league well - and Andy Reid is going to the HOF because if it. So there is AMPLE Proof of Concept.



The irony is that - under a good chunk of Mitch and certainly ALL of Fields - they weren't running anything close to the whole playbook - so the notion that Nagy just loved gimmicks and gadgets is overblown IMHO

[wab]

You are arguing with yourself here. No one thinks we should run 5 plays. Nor does anyone think we should run 5,000.

I agree with Thayers actual point - Nagy over complicated the offense (I think we all agree on this). And he thinks we will play better if we simplify things (agree).

Cue the first game under this approach with 150 Yards of Total Offense because if you are only running a handful of plays and its KIND of like NFL Defenses will eat that up with a Spoon

Johnny for Des Plaines you're on the Score!

"Yeah - they are just too predictable. When you only have 2 run plays - the Defense is ready for it no matter how "perfect" your practice"

Great point Johnny - I guess Getsy just doesn't Get it!

Ugh.

Nagy from my point of view wasn't the number of plays (oh no!). But just his feel as a play caller - plus the Offense itself (Talent wise and QB knowledge wise)

He always seemed to lack Flow (either getting too much away from the Running Game or just deciding its time to check off the run - so we run 7 out of 9, but the Defense knows its coming)- AND failures to adjust (never seemed a strength)

This offense - with MORE plays - has served multiple HC around the league well - and Andy Reid is going to the HOF because if it. So there is AMPLE Proof of Concept.



The irony is that - under a good chunk of Mitch and certainly ALL of Fields - they weren't running anything close to the whole playbook - so the notion that Nagy just loved gimmicks and gadgets is overblown IMHO

This is getting tiresome and this thread has become pointless.

[RichH55]

Cue the first game under this approach with 150 Yards of Total Offense because if you are only running a handful of plays and its KIND of like NFL Defenses will eat that up with a Spoon

Johnny for Des Plaines you're on the Score!

"Yeah - they are just too predictable. When you only have 2 run plays - the Defense is ready for it no matter how "perfect" your practice"

Great point Johnny - I guess Getsy just doesn't Get it!

Ugh.

Nagy from my point of view wasn't the number of plays (oh no!). But just his feel as a play caller - plus the Offense itself (Talent wise and QB knowledge wise)

He always seemed to lack Flow (either getting too much away from the Running Game or just deciding its time to check off the run - so we run 7 out of 9, but the Defense knows its coming)- AND failures to adjust (never seemed a strength)

This offense - with MORE plays - has served multiple HC around the league well - and Andy Reid is going to the HOF because if it. So there is AMPLE Proof of Concept.



The irony is that - under a good chunk of Mitch and certainly ALL of Fields - they weren't running anything close to the whole playbook - so the notion that Nagy just loved gimmicks and gadgets is overblown IMHO

This is getting tiresome and this thread has become pointless.

All fair

Anything more than 4 posts in a thread and I offend Tom Thayer - got to keep it simple

[Yogi da Bear]

This is getting tiresome and this thread has become pointless.

As is any thread where Rich starts going off. Can people just stop quoting him when he does? I don't need to read that crap. The ignore option has made it very peaceful for me otherwise.

[RichH55]

This is getting tiresome and this thread has become pointless.

As is any thread where Rich starts going off. Can people just stop quoting him when he does? I don't need to read that crap. The ignore option has made it very peaceful for me otherwise.

Maybe if we use one clip for a Training Camp practice to prove the world that would be better?

[wab]

To be clear, I don’t have an issue with Rich. I get not everyone “gets” his posting style. But the depths this thread has gone into a pointless circle is unnecessary.

[RichH55]

To be clear, I don’t have an issue with Rich. I get not everyone “gets” his posting style. But the depths this thread has gone into a pointless circle is unnecessary.

Thanks Wab. Lock it if you like. So far all my arguments with Lombardi have gone nowhere !

[The Marshall Plan]

You are arguing with yourself here. No one thinks we should run 5 plays. Nor does anyone think we should run 5,000.

I agree with Thayers actual point - Nagy over complicated the offense (I think we all agree on this). And he thinks we will play better if we simplify things (agree).

Cue the first game under this approach with 150 Yards of Total Offense because if you are only running a handful of plays and its KIND of like NFL Defenses will eat that up with a Spoon

Johnny for Des Plaines you're on the Score!

"Yeah - they are just too predictable. When you only have 2 run plays - the Defense is ready for it no matter how "perfect" your practice"

Great point Johnny - I guess Getsy just doesn't Get it!

Ugh.

Nagy from my point of view wasn't the number of plays (oh no!). But just his feel as a play caller - plus the Offense itself (Talent wise and QB knowledge wise)

He always seemed to lack Flow (either getting too much away from the Running Game or just deciding its time to check off the run - so we run 7 out of 9, but the Defense knows its coming)- AND failures to adjust (never seemed a strength)

This offense - with MORE plays - has served multiple HC around the league well - and Andy Reid is going to the HOF because if it. So there is AMPLE Proof of Concept.



The irony is that - under a good chunk of Mitch and certainly ALL of Fields - they weren't running anything close to the whole playbook - so the notion that Nagy just loved gimmicks and gadgets is overblown IMHO

Just so I understand better, whose show on The Score is Johnny calling into?

[dplank]

There's no thread here, wab is right to note that it has devolved. The only argument to actually have is whether or not Tom Thayer was sufficiently articulate in making his point. Not one person here has suggested that an NFL team should run a 5 play playbook - literally zero people said that. So I don't know why Rich keeps going on about it.

[dave99]

There's no thread here, wab is right to note that it has devolved. The only argument to actually have is whether or not Tom Thayer was sufficiently articulate in making his point. Not one person here has suggested that an NFL team should run a 5 play playbook - literally zero people said that. So I don't know why Rich keeps going on about it.

I have never known Rich to let go of an argument just because there is no one on the other side.
The man could start a fight with lawn furniture.
Sorry the thread went sideways, I thought it was great preseason fodder.

[dplank]

I did too Dave and love Thayer, he's a smart dude not some Neanderthal and knows more about the game than any of us do by a wide margin.

[o-pus #40 in B major]

[RichH55]

There's no thread here, wab is right to note that it has devolved. The only argument to actually have is whether or not Tom Thayer was sufficiently articulate in making his point. Not one person here has suggested that an NFL team should run a 5 play playbook - literally zero people said that. So I don't know why Rich keeps going on about it.

You can literally find someone telling me to argue with the ghost of Vince Lombardi in this thread Dplank.

I think its nuts they did that - but they did.

[RichH55]

Cue the first game under this approach with 150 Yards of Total Offense because if you are only running a handful of plays and its KIND of like NFL Defenses will eat that up with a Spoon

Johnny for Des Plaines you're on the Score!

"Yeah - they are just too predictable. When you only have 2 run plays - the Defense is ready for it no matter how "perfect" your practice"

Great point Johnny - I guess Getsy just doesn't Get it!

Ugh.

Nagy from my point of view wasn't the number of plays (oh no!). But just his feel as a play caller - plus the Offense itself (Talent wise and QB knowledge wise)

He always seemed to lack Flow (either getting too much away from the Running Game or just deciding its time to check off the run - so we run 7 out of 9, but the Defense knows its coming)- AND failures to adjust (never seemed a strength)

This offense - with MORE plays - has served multiple HC around the league well - and Andy Reid is going to the HOF because if it. So there is AMPLE Proof of Concept.



The irony is that - under a good chunk of Mitch and certainly ALL of Fields - they weren't running anything close to the whole playbook - so the notion that Nagy just loved gimmicks and gadgets is overblown IMHO

Just so I understand better, whose show on The Score is Johnny calling into?

All of them.

He's also going to do the full Arob on Roquon this year.

He will go from being akin to Ray Lewis (ridiculous) to a bottom 10 LB (also ridiculous)

But we can't not have the full pendulum

[IE]

What Thayer said on concept is absolutely true - if you're being successful at something, you should keep doing it until they stop you. Maybe not maniacally - but if a play is working keep throwing it in there. He didn't really mean dumb it down or oversimplify an NFL offense because that won't work in the NFL unless you have absolutely the best athletes and team & can execute against anyone.

One key feature of the new Bear offense is the deliberate attempt to obscure run vs pass and and confuse the D as to what the offense is really going to do. The Oline behaves the same way regardless and the RBs line up in ways to confuse and the WRs almost always at least chip like they're run-blocking even on pass plays.

THAT is what is really important in the modern NFL, and what Nagy was particularly bad at doing - constructing/calling an effective offense within a scheme that could confuse or slow a defense. Instead, the opposing D never seemed surprised by Nagy at all - like most good DCs diagnosed and solved for Nagy's tendencies, and they could come after Bear QBs like gangbusters. "Destination: QB" is what I called that. Nagy either abandoned things that were working because he didn't want to appear predictable, OR he seemed to get into his own head calling completely wrong plays on purpose in a cute attempt to outsmart the D. And when he planned or scripted something he got SO intent on staying committed to his plan that he ended up undermining his team & what was actually working. Best example I can think of that was Foles' drive where he called a timeout to insert a package he had planned for the red zone and Foles was furious because the hurry up was working so well in the drive down the field.

Nagy was a perfect example of how not to coordinate and call an NFL offense. The bar for Getsy is super-low. If he is incorporating a lot of Shanny's offense we'll see dramatic improvement over the previous few years when poor Mitch couldn't grind out any offense at all for entire halves. Even if the offense struggles, it should be better out of the gate than the debacles we've seen from Nagy (e.g. Nagy 2.0 debut against the Pack in '19).

[thunderspirit]

There's no thread here, wab is right to note that it has devolved. The only argument to actually have is whether or not Tom Thayer was sufficiently articulate in making his point. Not one person here has suggested that an NFL team should run a 5 play playbook - literally zero people said that. So I don't know why Rich keeps going on about it.

I have never known Rich to let go of an argument just because there is no one on the other side.
The man could start a fight with lawn furniture.
Sorry the thread went sideways, I thought it was great preseason fodder.

Stealing this.

[RichH55]

I have never known Rich to let go of an argument just because there is no one on the other side.
The man could start a fight with lawn furniture.
Sorry the thread went sideways, I thought it was great preseason fodder.

Stealing this.

Except people always take the other side.

Shea had hs defenders. I had to tell people Matt Barkley and Marcus Mariotta weren't good

Hell - I had to tell a guy that Oakland wasn't local to Seattle

Even here people are posting Vince Lombardi for some reason

[dplank]

I’m still waiting for someone to take the other side of this one, haven’t seen it yet

[RichH55]

I’m still waiting for someone to take the other side of this one, haven’t seen it yet

You might want to talk to Vince Lombardi on that? (Again - a thing that happened in this thread)

I didn't get much out of it besides toughness and keep it simple (too simple)- your mileage may vary

Is it as bad as calling Justin Fields heroic? Of course not.

[Arkansasbear]

I’m still waiting for someone to take the other side of this one, haven’t seen it yet

I think 5 plays if too many. We should only practice and run 1 play (maybe half a play I don't know). If we do that everyone will know exactly what it is they are to do and we won't have any mental errors (go on the same snap count as well so we don't worry about someone forgetting that).

I can't believe I read this whole thing.