Update: Roquan traded to Ravens

[RichH55]

So I'm safe to assume that all of you think the Chargers made a mistake signing Derwin James then?

@G08, if Cowherd is spot on here, then perhaps you'd like to retract your defense of Poles market setting OGun deal?

Ogun wasn't market setting - At all.

Market Setting does have an actual meaning

[RichH55]

That's ridiculous.
Yes, Roquan won't eat up all your space, but it's still a form of either or proposition.

Your choices aren't:

125M + Roquan
or
125M + no Roquan

It's a cap league and he's not free.

You give up 22M/yr of some other player or players to get him.

Lots of people here are voting for "22M of something else". WLBs are not hard or expensive to find, relatively speaking.

Congratulations.

You completely and totally misunderstood what I posted.

He started his post with "That's Ridiculous"

So like 99% sure he completely understood your post:)

[o-pus #40 in B major]

My biggest problem with Roquan is that he has a history of refusing to honor contracts that he has signed.

It's foolish to keep giving him a contract when you know he won't honor it.

Time is not going to wait for a convoluted, drawn-out process. I was originally on board the franchise bus but the drama and distraction and plain foolishness that Roquan has conceived make him a liability that the Bears can do without.

Poles should remove the distraction by trading Roquan for the first reasonable offer and then get on with building a championship team.

This is true of most players who outplay their contracts - you’re living in the past.

Thanks for the correction. I still believe there is too much plain foolishness involved with keeping Roquan a Bear and I look forward to a reasonable trade deal in the near future.

[The Marshall Plan]

Congratulations.

You completely and totally misunderstood what I posted.

He started his post with "That's Ridiculous"

So like 99% sure he completely understood your post:)

Just sit back, relax and enjoy the sounds of the Smooth Jazz Cafe.

This music makes you glad to be put on hold. Troll.

[RichH55]

I think based on my recent reading of other deals out there, my new cap on Roquan is 20M. Opinions don’t have to be ensconced in stone and it’s ok to move a bit here and there as you take in more information. It’s a minor shift for me but worth noting I suppose.

Cowherd is a shock jock, he makes incendiary comments for clicks that lack depth or nuance. TMP is right in that he makes it an all or nothing POV which is stupid.

FYI guys, the discount due to being a non premier position has already been applied - that’s why he’s not getting QB, Edge, or WR money. That point seems consistently lost. Was Indy dumb to pay Leonard what they paid him? No. Some of you seem to think we can play Stephen Hawking at WLB and because the position is less valuable it makes sense - you just take it too far. Lance Briggs was a KEY member of our last good run of football - also forgotten somehow.

I don't really think it does fully factor in the Non-Premium part of the position though. Its contracts and supply/demand

Leonard and Warner are more outliers in terms of contracts than players at other positions Than say QB, WR. Take WR this year - when player X (pick your guy - Metcalf, Hill, Laurens, etc) - Whomever your guy was that was getting $20+. There were guys ready to get that contract (multiple)- The market was resetting (Be prepared for Mooney getting 15+ a year on his next deal folks)

If Roquon gets $22 Million - it will be a bit before the next LB gets 20+. The Jags - who were spending more than everyone was worth in FA (Loser tax) - gave their crazy ILB overpay - 15 million a season (Jags are reliably one of the teams that overpays ILB - Myles Jack and Joe Schoebert are on that list)

When you go to like 10th ILB - you are starting to get much less money - and there generally are options in FA every year (ILB and Guard always seem to make FA to some nice degree)

So FA is more of an option here (good luck getting a LT or QB in FA)

Compare that to QB where "pretty good" costs you Kirk Cousins money (*)

(*) None of this deals with Rookie Contract stuff - always going to be a value

And Draft - Good ILB don't tend to command premium picks - and there is a decent amount in the college game - So while I wouldn't expect a guy to come in and be 2nd Team All Pro (again Roquon is very good - just the Ray Lewis/Urlacher comps are NONSENSE) - Calling the replacement options Stephen Hawking - is willfully ignorant

[RichH55]

Derwin James contract since it was brought up

It’s a four-year, $76 million extension. That translates to a new-money average of $19 million. Of that amount, $38.584 million is fully guaranteed at signing. Another $3.415 million becomes guaranteed by 2023, pushing the total to $42 million.

Over five years, it’s a deal that pays out $85.584 million, and average at signing of $17.116 million.

James is guaranteed two years, with that extra bit that trickles into 2024. The final two seasons, at $16.75 million an $17.5 million, are essentially year-to-year options for the Chargers.

[wab]

I think it's a deal that the Chargers will regret, but they have given themselves a fairly reasonable out after year two.

[IE]

I think it's a deal that the Chargers will regret, but they have given themselves a fairly reasonable out after year two.

My understanding is that was a big part of what Roquan found objectionable... the couple of years of guarantees but then having to earn it in the latter ones. I wonder if he's self-aware enough to realize that's because they don't want to have to go through this shit again later on in his contract, and want to be in that exact position - to walk if they want.

[Mikefive]

Your assertion here is questionable. If Roquan was asking for $100M/year, would you back him then? You're too smart for that. That says that your support is tied to a price tag. Your last sentence admits that... "should be rewarded APPROPRIATELY". You didn't say "rewarded at any cost".

This is true, but people are bashing him without any actual knowledge of what has or hasn't been offered. We simply don't know if Poles is being a cheapskate or if Roquan is being unreasonable. So bashing our best player seems shitty to me. I hope this is over soon and we can go back to rooting for our good players to play football. People are assuming the worst with Roquan based on extremely flimsy evidence.

I don't think it's extremely flimsy when Schefter is reporting that other teams looked at the Bears offer and called it pretty good.

[dplank]

I haven’t looked closely IE but thought I read that they heavily front loaded the contract. That actually favors the player, it’s more like guaranteed money. I don’t see why he’d have a problem there, backloaded with a team out would be problematic.

Mike that’s a data point but not a super strong one. Pretty good isnt exactly strong wording, could mean a lot of things. Pretty good typically doesn’t get it done with elite players. I’m not saying Roquan isnt being unreasonable, just saying we don’t have the details nor does Schefter (if he does that’s a huge red flag IMO)

[IE]

I haven’t looked closely IE but thought I read that they heavily front loaded the contract. That actually favors the player, it’s more like guaranteed money. I don’t see why he’d have a problem there, backloaded with a team out would be problematic.

Mike that’s a data point but not a super strong one. Pretty good isnt exactly strong wording, could mean a lot of things. Pretty good typically doesn’t get it done with elite players. I’m not saying Roquan isnt being unreasonable, just saying we don’t have the details nor does Schefter (if he does that’s a huge red flag IMO)

Agreed. My understanding is it WAS good for him for the first couple of years, but then he also wanted more on the back-end including more guaranteed. I actually think that would be fine but also need to be loaded with incentives that I'm sure he wouldn't like (e.g. continuing to make the probowl and some statistical benchmarks).

I think the hurdle that often appears is the players who do outperform their contracts sort of want to be compensated for past performance. But they DID agree to the contract, just like all of us have to honor contracts (or should).

[G08]

This is true, but people are bashing him without any actual knowledge of what has or hasn't been offered. We simply don't know if Poles is being a cheapskate or if Roquan is being unreasonable. So bashing our best player seems shitty to me. I hope this is over soon and we can go back to rooting for our good players to play football. People are assuming the worst with Roquan based on extremely flimsy evidence.

I don't think it's extremely flimsy when Schefter is reporting that other teams looked at the Bears offer and called it pretty good.

It's not extremely flimsy, at all.

Hell, the first time Roquan held out it was for something unprecedented. I'm all for a dude "getting his" but he's being obnoxious IMO.

There were record-setting aspects to the contract by which he was offended. I either hope he's traded or is forced to play out his 5th year deal and then we franchise his ass for 2023.

[wab]

Mike that’s a data point but not a super strong one. Pretty good isnt exactly strong wording, could mean a lot of things. Pretty good typically doesn’t get it done with elite players. I’m not saying Roquan isnt being unreasonable, just saying we don’t have the details nor does Schefter (if he does that’s a huge red flag IMO)

I personally don't think this reporting from Schefter is flimsy. Direct quote from his appearance on Waddle and Silvy:

“My view from the outside is that the Bears have made a number of, what sounds like to me, compelling offers. I could be proven otherwise, but I’ve chatted about some offers with some other people connected to the Bears, and I’ve run those numbers past other teams and they’re like, ‘wow.’ In their mind, they feel like it was fair. Obviously Roquan Smith doesn’t. He feels like he’s being mistreated. And that’s his perspective. The money out there is comparable to those guys. I think he wants to beat those guys.”

Now that there are rumors out there that the Cowboys, Browns, Broncos, and Ravens are interested...I have to wonder if this gets resolved any time soon.

[The Marshall Plan]

And we sit back and wonder why we haven’t won shit in over 35 years.

This discussion is worse than anything Mitch or Cutler related I’ve seen around here in like 8 years or however long I’ve posted here.

And twice as dumb as those arguments too.

[Yogi da Bear]

I'm facing a dilemma with the Roquan issue.

First, I like Roquan and think that many here are underselling the importance of the Will position in the Tampa Two. I harken back to Lance Briggs and Derric Brooks, and look to Darius Leonard and Lavonte David now. Clearly those OLBs were and are critical to the defense. And to have a LB who can cover like Roquan, that's huge.

But then I look at what we don't know and the possible contract offered. We don't know how Roquan will fair in this defense. I "feel" it would be great, but then he won't be protected like he was in the 3-4 and he has shown an inability to shed blocks, so we just don't know for sure. And then I think of the contract. All indications were it was a fair contract. If that's the case, you simply have to wait it. Ro either signs it or he doesn't. If he doesn't then he still has to play at least six games under his current contract and we can see how he fairs in this system. Maybe we can get him to start playing if he isn't signing with the assurance that if he performs, we'll give him a bit more. But if offered a fair contract, you have to be able to stand by it.

With this in mind, the Chargers were stupid in their contract with James, but then they are chasing a ring I guess. Whatever the case, you don't base your own negotiations off of stupid contracts by other teams. You can't. Let them live with it. James' contract should have no bearing at all on our offer to Roquan. None. If we offered a fair contract, we should stick by our guns.

[karhu]

On the James deal:

If he's as healthy in the next few years as he was in 2021, it could be a pretty good deal for them. Their core is pretty well set, their QB is under his rookie contract/fifth-year extension until 2025, and James gets paid while giving the team some flexibility once Herbert's next contract kicks in.

And for all that, it's not a huge step up from Minkah Fitzpatrick's deal. When he's been healthy, James has been All-Pro.

Each one of those details distinguishes James's situation from Smith's, IMSO.

[Rusty Trombagent]

And we sit back and wonder why we haven’t won shit in over 35 years.

I agree, we havent won anything in 35 years because we routinely spend a massively disproportionate amount of money on our defense.

[RichH55]

I haven’t looked closely IE but thought I read that they heavily front loaded the contract. That actually favors the player, it’s more like guaranteed money. I don’t see why he’d have a problem there, backloaded with a team out would be problematic.

Mike that’s a data point but not a super strong one. Pretty good isnt exactly strong wording, could mean a lot of things. Pretty good typically doesn’t get it done with elite players. I’m not saying Roquan isnt being unreasonable, just saying we don’t have the details nor does Schefter (if he does that’s a huge red flag IMO)

LOOK up and you can see the contract - you don't have to wildly guess

[TheWorldBreaker]

Agreed. He also rants on about the history of the Bears and behaves as if they've never tried to acquire stars at the the 4 'weapon' positions he argues are necessary for success.

Since the Bears made the Super Bowl following the 2006 season, Bears GMs have:

QB
Engineered a big trade for a young Pro Bowl QB (Cutler), traded up one spot to draft a QB number 2 overall (Trubisky), traded up to draft a QB at number 11 overall.

WR
Traded to bring in a 3-time Pro Bowl player (Marshall) and drafted another WR (Jeffery) in the second round the same year, spent the 7th overall pick on a WR (White), signed another Pro Bowl player (Robinson).

Edge
Spent the 19th overall pick on an edge rusher (McClellin), traded up to draft an edge rusher at number 9 overall, engineered a big trade for a DPOY edge rusher and gave him the biggest contract for a defender in NFL history (Mack), signed another Pro Bowler (Quinn).

LT
This is the one position where the Bears haven't made much effort to land a quality player. You have to go back to 2008 for the last time they spent a high pick on trying to land an LT prospect (Williams) and then last year they traded up for another they believed could fulfil that role (Jenkins). In between they've drafted other OL in the 1st or 2nd round (Carimi, Long, Whitehair, Daniels) but none were expected to play LT. In free agency the Bears signed a 2-time Pro Bowler (Bushrod) and also a couple of high-end LTs but that was at the end of their careers when they weren't the same calibre of player (Pace, Peters).

Certainly the Bears could have done more, but the biggest issue isn't that they haven't made moves to acquire 'weapons' at key positions so much as their track record of them panning out has been mostly awful. You can argue that they should just keep going until they land a top-end player at a position, but you have to give players at least a couple of seasons to evaluate them and even then things can fall apart quickly. Marshall and Jeffery are a prime example; we thought we had a high end pair of WR who would be around for a while but it didn't work out that way.

You can't, as Cowherd does here, undervalue other positions either. With the expansion of the role TEs play in the passing game, ILBs who can cover are important. With teams playing nickel more than ever with only 2 LB on the field (and in this defense of Eberflus's that percentage is sky high) the value of athletic ILBs is high. Ones who can force turnovers like Leonard are hugely valuable. Turnover differential is a key indicator to the likely outcome of a game.

Jerry Angelo had his flaws but the one thing he did understand was that you build teams from the ball outwards.

Meaning a focus on OL, DL and QB.

We had really good OL and DL during his tenure.

Angelo’s key flaw was not landing a true QB (Cutler) until it was too late. By then Lovie was on the way out after a couple of years and the defense started to age.

They had a good offensive line until he got Cutler and then just assumed Cutler would magically make everyone better and neglected it with half assed measures and bad ideas for both the line and WR (and the trading away your best offensive weapon because you hired an OC to stupid and stubborn to come up with a way to use him) and developed a weird obsession with dbs from small schools.

Giving up the farm for Cutler and then signing a broken down Orlando Pace was criminally negligent. And his first round offensive line picks Carimi and Williams were not good.


I would have really liked to see the line that carried Grossman to the playoffs by running it every down to get a TD against the Saints with Cutler. They might have gotten a ring with that combo.

[RichH55]

I think based on my recent reading of other deals out there, my new cap on Roquan is 20M. Opinions don’t have to be ensconced in stone and it’s ok to move a bit here and there as you take in more information. It’s a minor shift for me but worth noting I suppose.

Cowherd is a shock jock, he makes incendiary comments for clicks that lack depth or nuance. TMP is right in that he makes it an all or nothing POV which is stupid.

FYI guys, the discount due to being a non premier position has already been applied - that’s why he’s not getting QB, Edge, or WR money. That point seems consistently lost. Was Indy dumb to pay Leonard what they paid him? No. Some of you seem to think we can play Stephen Hawking at WLB and because the position is less valuable it makes sense - you just take it too far. Lance Briggs was a KEY member of our last good run of football - also forgotten somehow.

I don't really think it does fully factor in the Non-Premium part of the position though. Its contracts and supply/demand

Leonard and Warner are more outliers in terms of contracts than players at other positions Than say QB, WR. Take WR this year - when player X (pick your guy - Metcalf, Hill, Laurens, etc) - Whomever your guy was that was getting $20+. There were guys ready to get that contract (multiple)- The market was resetting (Be prepared for Mooney getting 15+ a year on his next deal folks)

If Roquon gets $22 Million - it will be a bit before the next LB gets 20+. The Jags - who were spending more than everyone was worth in FA (Loser tax) - gave their crazy ILB overpay - 15 million a season (Jags are reliably one of the teams that overpays ILB - Myles Jack and Joe Schoebert are on that list)

When you go to like 10th ILB - you are starting to get much less money - and there generally are options in FA every year (ILB and Guard always seem to make FA to some nice degree)

So FA is more of an option here (good luck getting a LT or QB in FA)

Compare that to QB where "pretty good" costs you Kirk Cousins money (*)

(*) None of this deals with Rookie Contract stuff - always going to be a value

And Draft - Good ILB don't tend to command premium picks - and there is a decent amount in the college game - So while I wouldn't expect a guy to come in and be 2nd Team All Pro (again Roquon is very good - just the Ray Lewis/Urlacher comps are NONSENSE) - Calling the replacement options Stephen Hawking - is willfully ignorant

Eh I should note that Devin White probably gets in this ballpark (or beats it) too - So I shouldn't be acting like there are NO other ILB who are gonna get paid

[RichH55]

And we sit back and wonder why we haven’t won shit in over 35 years.

This discussion is worse than anything Mitch or Cutler related I’ve seen around here in like 8 years or however long I’ve posted here.

And twice as dumb as those arguments too.

Have we not spent money on LB in the past 35 years?

I know, I know - smooth jazz or The Office - But I truly don't understand the point you are driving at here

[The Marshall Plan]

And we sit back and wonder why we haven’t won shit in over 35 years.

I agree, we havent won anything in 35 years because we routinely spend a massively disproportionate amount of money on our defense.

Weak.

That has nothing to do with this situation.

[The Marshall Plan]

And we sit back and wonder why we haven’t won shit in over 35 years.

This discussion is worse than anything Mitch or Cutler related I’ve seen around here in like 8 years or however long I’ve posted here.

And twice as dumb as those arguments too.

Have we not spent money on LB in the past 35 years?

I know, I know - smooth jazz or The Office - But I truly don't understand the point you are driving at here

This is one of my favorite duets. You can listen to this while waiting for a response. You’re welcome.

The title of the song fits you perfectly too.

[RichH55]

I agree, we havent won anything in 35 years because we routinely spend a massively disproportionate amount of money on our defense.

Weak.

That has nothing to do with this situation.

Yeah - its almost like the 35 Year thing doesnt really make sense

[wab]

I agree, we havent won anything in 35 years because we routinely spend a massively disproportionate amount of money on our defense.

Weak.

That has nothing to do with this situation.

His statement isn't incorrect.

[The Marshall Plan]

Weak.

That has nothing to do with this situation.

His statement isn't incorrect.

That’s like saying sugar is the only ingredient in making cookies.

[crueltyabc]

Something else to consider is the availability of good linebackers in the 2nd and 3rd round of the draft.
JOK and Pete Werner last year in the 2nd
Logan Wilson the year before in the 3rd

It's not crazy to think that Poles could find an adequate (not equal or better.. i'm just saying adequate) replacement and use the money somewhere else, especially if he wants to shift investment from defense to offense
*whispers* In a break from a 35 year tradition

[karhu]

Something else to consider is the availability of good linebackers in the 2nd and 3rd round of the draft.
JOK and Pete Werner last year in the 2nd
Logan Wilson the year before in the 3rd

Hell, Leonard and David in the 2nd and Warner in the 3rd.

[Ditka’s dictaphone]

I think I get TMP’s point.

Reasons for not paying your best players:
1) we can’t afford their demands
2) they’ve peaked and are on the decline
3) we have strong cover in that position
4) we’re being offered a mega-trade
5) they want to leave
6) they’re a pain in the ass
7) injuries

I’m sure there are more. I just don’t see any of them applying to Roquan in any meaningful way.

[Moriarty]

I think I get TMP’s point.

Reasons for not paying your best players:
1) we can’t afford their demands
2) they’ve peaked and are on the decline
3) we have strong cover in that position
4) we’re being offered a mega-trade
5) they want to leave
6) they’re a pain in the ass
7) injuries

I’m sure there are more.

Yes.
Like THE far and away most important one:

• You can do more for your team with the resources from trading or waving goodbye than you can by paying to keep them

Any list that doesn't have that at Number One in huge bold letters is operating with a 1980 mentality.
And a baffling amount of fans seem to be stuck there.
The name of the game isn't "Keep all your own players happy" anymore and hasn't been for many decades.