Keepers, Again

[Ditka’s dictaphone]

If you put all our roster up for trade, Fields will get the most offers by far.

The others? *shrugs*

This has absolutely nothing to do with anything, and doesn’t even matter when it comes to the philosophy behind building an NFL roster.

Thanks for your comment

[dplank]

Excuse me....but how do you take that statement on Fields and NOT apply it to Braxton Jones again? DD did not misunderstand anything, he called out a massive inconsistency here. If Braxton Jones plateaus where he is right now, he is NOT a quality NFL LT. He would make for an excellent NYC doorman or matador maybe, he's really good at letting people go through him on their way to the QB. Do you think Braxton Jones is good enough as he is right now with no improvement? Yikes.

I won't mix arguments and dive into why I disagree on Fields outlook (I do, very very much). But the logic here is brutally bad, and DD is 100% right calling that out.

I think the argument is that Braxton is closer to where he needs to be as a first year player than Fields is as a second year player.

Sorry bud but I don't see that at all, here's the exact quote

if he plateaus where he is now, he will need to be replaced in the near future.

That was the criteria. So just insert the names. If he (Braxton Jones) plateaus where he is now, he will need to be replaced in the near future. Absolutely 100% yes, he was not nearly good enough in pass protection to not warrant replacement. The only hope here is that, as a rookie, he should improve a whole lot in that regard. Because of that I still like him. But if he plateaued as a pass protector? No freaking way.

[Rusty Trombagent]

I think the argument is that Braxton is closer to where he needs to be as a first year player than Fields is as a second year player.

Not very objective, pure speculation.

Damn, something subjective posted on a message board? I guess there's a first time for everything.

[IE]

Someone will bump this thread in 2024 and once of us will look like a total muppet.

Not only is this true, but it drives people's statements. It's the internet, folks - there are no real reputations to protect. Not really. But people hedge SO hard like ever being wrong is death itself.

The only thing that really matters to be credible, really, is do you have a rational, defensible position - whether you end up right or wrong.

In the case of JFI, NOBODY can even agree on "what he is now". Some will look at his stats and declare that's it. Others will point to his most shining moments and declare that to be his demonstrated skill level - especially since there are enough to not be considered outliers.

Me personally? I'll used the mid season showcase and say that's his floor in the future. If others want to use his worst outings for their own purposes, that's their prerogative. But I strongly believe their takes strain reasonable credibility, and those opinions deserve sideeye coming from a "fan". If there is good enough evidence, you take it. Unless it's really more about you and reputation more than anything else.

[Rusty Trombagent]

Someone will bump this thread in 2024 and once of us will look like a total muppet.

Not only is this true, but it drives people's statements. It's the internet, folks - there are no real reputations to protect. Not really. But people hedge SO hard like ever being wrong is death itself.

The only thing that really matters to be credible, really, is do you have a rational, defensible position - whether you end up right or wrong.

In the case of JFI, NOBODY can even agree on "what he is now". Some will look at his stats and declare that's it. Others will point to his most shining moments and declare that to be his demonstrated skill level - especially since there are enough to not be considered outliers.

Me personally? I'll used the mid season showcase and say that's his floor in the future. If others want to use his worst outings for their own purposes, that's their prerogative. But I strongly believe their takes strain reasonable credibility, and those opinions deserve sideeye coming from a "fan". If there is good enough evidence, you take it. Unless it's really more about you and reputation more than Fanwood.

[thunderspirit]

Only if you think Fields doesn't need to improve from where he is today.

You can think the world of him — which I do — and anticipate significant gains in the seasons to come — which I do — and still acknowledge that if he plateaus where he is now, he will need to be replaced in the near future.

I don't expect that plateau to happen, but it could (it certainly has for many other QBs before him), and to dismiss that possibility seems foolish.

Excuse me....but how do you take that statement on Fields and NOT apply it to Braxton Jones again?

Because I was responding to DD's comment about Justin Fields.

I didn't bring up Braxton Jones or in fact anyone else on Mori's list. I haven't addressed Mori's list at all (and probably won't).

[dplank]

Oh ok my bad

[Rusty Trombagent]

I haven't addressed Mori's list at all (and probably won't).

[IE]

Not only is this true, but it drives people's statements. It's the internet, folks - there are no real reputations to protect. Not really. But people hedge SO hard like ever being wrong is death itself.

The only thing that really matters to be credible, really, is do you have a rational, defensible position - whether you end up right or wrong.

In the case of JFI, NOBODY can even agree on "what he is now". Some will look at his stats and declare that's it. Others will point to his most shining moments and declare that to be his demonstrated skill level - especially since there are enough to not be considered outliers.

Me personally? I'll used the mid season showcase and say that's his floor in the future. If others want to use his worst outings for their own purposes, that's their prerogative. But I strongly believe their takes strain reasonable credibility, and those opinions deserve sideeye coming from a "fan". If there is good enough evidence, you take it. Unless it's really more about you and reputation more than anything else.

If the foo shits, wear it.

[The Marshall Plan]

Someone will bump this thread in 2024 and once of us will look like a total muppet.

Well yeah.

That's half the fun.

Abusing each other.

[o-pus #40 in B major]

I recall Madden saying you really don't know what you have in a player until his fourth season.

Other side of the coin is we have a very young roster.

As long as these guys are growing and getting better they get a passing grade from this old growth.

[Ditka’s dictaphone]

Someone will bump this thread in 2024 and once of us will look like a total muppet.

Well yeah.

That's half the fun.

Abusing each other.

I’m ready for it and I’m open about and at peace with my lack of NFL knowledge.

I obviously don’t see the same faults in Justin Fields as everyone else.

I don’t really focus too much on the quality of the passing or the volume of passing yards. Fields is a winner & a play maker. Those qualities don’t always show up in raw stats.
If he never throws more than 150 yards a game but leads the Bears to multiple championships he won’t get one iota of criticism from me

[o-pus #40 in B major]

Well yeah.

That's half the fun.

Abusing each other.

I’m ready for it and I’m open about and at peace with my lack of NFL knowledge.

I obviously don’t see the same faults in Justin Fields as everyone else.

I don’t really focus too much on the quality of the passing or the volume of passing yards. Fields is a winner & a play maker. Those qualities don’t always show up in raw stats.
If he never throws more than 150 yards a game but leads the Bears to multiple championships he won’t get one iota of criticism from me

This I follow.

[The Marshall Plan]

Well yeah.

That's half the fun.

Abusing each other.

I’m ready for it and I’m open about and at peace with my lack of NFL knowledge.

I obviously don’t see the same faults in Justin Fields as everyone else.

I don’t really focus too much on the quality of the passing or the volume of passing yards. Fields is a winner & a play maker. Those qualities don’t always show up in raw stats.
If he never throws more than 150 yards a game but leads the Bears to multiple championships he won’t get one iota of criticism from me

That last part is a great point.

You can't teach a guy HOW to win. Or give somebody the will it takes to push forward when things look like shit.

That comes from inside.

JF1 has those qualities by the ton.

[thunderspirit]

If he never throws more than 150 yards a game but leads the Bears to multiple championships he won’t get one iota of criticism from me

That last part is a great point.

It is a very good point. It's very unlikely, but hey, if JF1 breaks the mold, eff it, winning solves a lot of issues.

[artbest01]

IMO, Justin Fields is one of the safest players on the roster...for 2023. His place in 2024 and beyond, in my view, is dependent upon how he performs as a passer in 2023. If he shows the improvement he needs to show, he's in Chicago long-term. If he doesn't, he likely won't be long for Chicago - I don't believe Poles makes a long-term commitment to a running QB who struggles in the passing game. Poles' comments about Fields after the season were measured - made a specific point of saying that Fields has to improve as a passer. He didn't lay sole blame on his supporting cast.

[dplank]

Going back to the original post. Braxton Jones was listed as Highly Likely and Justin Fields was listed lower as Realistic Maybe. For anyone who agrees with this, why is Fields development as a passer downgrading his position relative to Jones, and Jones obvious need to develop his pass protection in particular isnt downgrading his position? Does anyone think if Jones pass protection “plateaus”, as it was explained is how to view this, that it’s good enough??? Cmon.

One guy seems to get a pass (pun intended) while the other doesn’t. Meanwhile, with regards to the other elements of each of their games, Fields broke out big time as a Top 5 NFL playmaker, often bailing out his OL with spectacular plays. He almost broke the ALL TIME QB RUSHING RECORD FFS. That’s not some afterthought, that’s crazy good!

Because of this added element of elite playmaking ability (and still acknowledging he needs to grow as a passer), I put Fields as highly likely and I downgrade Jones to realistic maybe. I’m not even convinced Jones is our starting LT next year.

[Burl]

I'd put Jones as a Realistic Maybe, and Fields as Highly Likely, but I wish there were a more nuanced middle ground of just "likely".
We've had a number of late round OTs come out looking decent it seems like, with Leno being the most obvious example. I think if you look the part year 1 as a late rounder, you've got he talent to do it at least on a passable level.

Hate for this to turn into another Fields thread, but I've got to think that he has enough there to get at least a second contract. Even if the arm never catches up with the legs, I feel like with a decent cast around him, you can get good enough production to win with. I don't think running like that is 10-year sustainable, but I feel like he's going to get at least one extension.

That said, we all want the whole package but will have to wait and see. I remember being pretty high on Trubisky after year 2, the probowl nod and whatnot, and that just kind of all fell apart.

[RichH55]

Going back to the original post. Braxton Jones was listed as Highly Likely and Justin Fields was listed lower as Realistic Maybe. For anyone who agrees with this, why is Fields development as a passer downgrading his position relative to Jones, and Jones obvious need to develop his pass protection in particular isnt downgrading his position? Does anyone think if Jones pass protection “plateaus”, as it was explained is how to view this, that it’s good enough??? Cmon.

One guy seems to get a pass (pun intended) while the other doesn’t. Meanwhile, with regards to the other elements of each of their games, Fields broke out big time as a Top 5 NFL playmaker, often bailing out his OL with spectacular plays. He almost broke the ALL TIME QB RUSHING RECORD FFS. That’s not some afterthought, that’s crazy good!

Because of this added element of elite playmaking ability (and still acknowledging he needs to grow as a passer), I put Fields as highly likely and I downgrade Jones to realistic maybe. I’m not even convinced Jones is our starting LT next year.

Almost like its harder to be a QB in this league than an OL

Weird!

[RichH55]

That said, we all want the whole package but will have to wait and see. I remember being pretty high on Trubisky after year 2, the probowl nod and whatnot, and that just kind of all fell apart.

Well Mitch was superb running the ball that year but his passing needed work

What were you saying again?

[RichH55]

I’m ready for it and I’m open about and at peace with my lack of NFL knowledge.

I obviously don’t see the same faults in Justin Fields as everyone else.

I don’t really focus too much on the quality of the passing or the volume of passing yards. Fields is a winner & a play maker. Those qualities don’t always show up in raw stats.
If he never throws more than 150 yards a game but leads the Bears to multiple championships he won’t get one iota of criticism from me

That last part is a great point.

You can't teach a guy HOW to win. Or give somebody the will it takes to push forward when things look like shit.

That comes from inside.

JF1 has those qualities by the ton.

Whispers- We won 3 games.

[Ditka’s dictaphone]

That last part is a great point.

You can't teach a guy HOW to win. Or give somebody the will it takes to push forward when things look like shit.

That comes from inside.

JF1 has those qualities by the ton.

Whispers- We won 3 games.

Shouts - we were tanking

[Grizzled]

Looking at Moriarty's original post, it's pretty realisitic to assess what the Bears need. It will be interesting to revisit this after the '23 season and an infusion of talent. Some of the guys who aren't cutting it as starters, though, might be good depth pieces. I include Watt and possibly Pennel here for DT depth. Pennel a run stopper, maybe Watt can sub in at 3T if needed. LG is a blackhole, none of the guys listed will be playing the position in '24. Braxton Jones will be on the team but may be the RT depending on his improvement during the offseason and whom the Bears draft. The DE guys may be around as depth but not starters. A lot is riding on '23 performance for Mooney and Claypool - extensions or they walk as free agents after the season. JF - interesting one. He'll be playing in the same offensive scheme so much better familiarity. Will Poles get him legitimate OL and WRs so he has a chance to develop more as a passer? What will be considered progress for him in '23?

[The Marshall Plan]

I'd put Jones as a Realistic Maybe, and Fields as Highly Likely, but I wish there were a more nuanced middle ground of just "likely".
We've had a number of late round OTs come out looking decent it seems like, with Leno being the most obvious example. I think if you look the part year 1 as a late rounder, you've got he talent to do it at least on a passable level.

Hate for this to turn into another Fields thread, but I've got to think that he has enough there to get at least a second contract. Even if the arm never catches up with the legs, I feel like with a decent cast around him, you can get good enough production to win with. I don't think running like that is 10-year sustainable, but I feel like he's going to get at least one extension.

That said, we all want the whole package but will have to wait and see. I remember being pretty high on Trubisky after year 2, the probowl nod and whatnot, and that just kind of all fell apart.

Mitch isn’t even a fart in JF1’s morning loaf.

Night and day prospect wise.

[UOK]

I looked at the Bears players who are under contract through 2023 and while there are some guys who are clearly practice squad-bound or were names I had never heard of, these are the players who played significant snaps this year, made headlines for being interesting acquisitions, or were otherwise worth discussion.


QB
- Justin Fields
- Trevor Siemian

Justin Fields isn't going anywhere. If you think the Bears are going to trade Fields you simply haven't been paying attention. The team's marketing operation has thrown its entire PR machine behind him, and Poles has said the only way he'd consider taking a QB in this draft is if he was "blown away," but that doesn't do justice to how much of a dismissive response that was. Poles is a Fields guy, full stop. The players love him, he's clearly bound for the next step in something greater, and anyone plotting 5D chess moves to somehow trade Fields to draft the QB from Georgia or whatever need to put down the meth pipe.

Siemian will probably be back, but I'm guessing they'll host a bit of a competition with some UDFAs or maybe a very late round pick, perhaps somebody off the pile. Fields and Siemian have good rapport with the latter seeming to own the role of tutor. Siemian's health is definitely a concern, and I'd be a bit perplexed if the team didn't bring in another body or two to make the backup issue at camp interesting at least.

------------

HB
- Khalil Herbert
- Trestan Ebner

After hearing what Poles had to say about David Montgomery in his closing presser, you gotta think that they'll make Monty a very fair offer to stick around. I think the offense loves the 1-2 tandem of him and Herbert, and I think as a GM it's a lot wiser of Poles to strike a contractual balance with two good running backs than to load up by paying one back much more. I'm not holding out any possibilities of Saquon Barkley being a Bear for the sake of this thread.

Ebner is a coin toss. I don't think he capitalized on his opportunities to stand out in 2022 and I'm guessing the Bears will look elsewhere for backfield depth.

------------

WR
- Darnell Mooney
- Chase Claypool
- Velus Jones Jr
- Equanimeous St. Brown

I don't think any of these guys won't be featured on the 2023 Bears squad. They're all under contract. I'm guessing the Bears will draft a WR in the middle rounds and put Jones on notice, but I don't see him as an iffy player. He's gonna get 2023 to show what he's got beyond the occasional useful return.

------------

TE
- Cole Kmet
- Jake Tonges

Poles seemed high on Kmet, and rightfully so. He's starting to develop (finally). Tonges will probably find a way to make the roster unless some utility FB/TE mercenary brings the heat.

------------

OL
- Cody Whitehair
- Lucas Patrick
- Tevin Jenkins
- Alex Leatherwood
- Larry Borom
- Braxton Jones
- Kellen Diesch

Leatherwood's going to get camp and the preseason to find a role, probably as a guard, but I have my doubts. The Bears are going to go really hard at OL in both the draft and free agency (I expect) so it wouldn't shock me if he's given his papers barring a huge rally. Borom probably deserves better, but he's out of his depth. If they could convince him to stay as a reserve swing tackle, awesome, but unlikely. Diesch is interesting. Lots of praise and hype for his signing, and like Leatherwood these workouts and offseason activities are going to be crucial to him proving he has what it takes.

------------

DL
- Justin Jones
- Al-Quadin Muhammad
- Trevis Gipson
- Dominique Robinson
- Angelo Blackson

All of these guys are on the brink, frankly. The defensive line/pass rushing situation is getting utterly overhauled this offseason, and none of this list, even Flus' guy in Muhammad, have shown they can do more than scrap out an ass-tier defense. Robinson's going to get a long look, but he's on the cusp of relevancy. Gipson should be further along by now but he's been somewhat neutralized of late.

------------

LB
- Jack Sanborn
- Sterling Weatherford

Weatherford's tape looked so promising when the Bears picked him up, but I was surprised he never really had an impact or presence in all of 2022. He looked like one of those useful special teams aces, but in 11 games he barely had a stat line.

------------

S
- Eddie Jackson
- Jaquan Brisker

I don't see Eddie going anywhere unless he demands out for some reason.

------------

CB
- Jaylon Johnson
- Kindle Vildor
- Kyler Gordon
- Jaylon Jones

I wouldn't be surprised if Jones and Vildor were on the roster next year in the preseason but I fully expect young competition to push them to earn their spots.

---------

ST
- Cairo Santos
- Trenton Gill

They're both coming back, so....

[thunderspirit]

Good assessment, @UOK. Kudos.

[HisRoyalSweetness]

In case anyone missed this:

• Justin Fields was named the Bears MVP and Offensive Player of the Year
  (https://www.chicagobears.com/news/field ... f-the-year)

• Eddie Jackson was named the Bears Defensive Player of the Year
  (https://www.chicagobears.com/news/jacks ... f-the-year)

• Jaquan Brisker was named the Bears Rookie of the Year
  (https://www.chicagobears.com/news/brisk ... f-the-year).
  
  He was also named the the Bears "unsung hero" of 2022 by Nick Shook at nfl.com
  (https://www.nfl.com/news/nfl-s-unsung-h ... contributo)

  I love what the Bears have in their secondary. Brisker and nickelback Kyler Gordon (Gordon was selected 39th overall and Brisker was drafted 48th, both in the second round) are talented defensive backs who beefed up Chicago's back end and are primed to make plays for years to come. Brisker only finished with one interception to Gordon's three, but anyone who watched the Bears on a weekly basis is well aware of the safety's exciting potential. The team's own site even named him Chicago's Rookie of the Year. I agree with that designation, and I can't wait to see how he develops.

  And he was named to PFF's NFL All-Rookie Team.
  (https://www.pff.com/news/nfl-2022-nfl-a ... r-and-more)

  Brisker always seemed to be around the ball for Chicago as a rookie. He finished his first season with 28 defensive stops, the 10th-most of any safety in the league. And he did it all from a number of alignments, with 371 snaps coming from the slot, 150 along the line of scrimmage, 289 deep and 100 from the slot.

• Braxton Jones has been selected to the Pro Football Writers of America's 2022 NFL All-Rookie Team.
  (https://www.chicagobears.com/news/braxt ... ookie-team)
  
  He also made PFF's NFL All-Rookie Team.
  (https://www.pff.com/news/nfl-2022-nfl-a ... r-and-more)

  One of the steals of the draft class so far. The Bears' fifth-rounder did enough to put himself as their undisputed long-term starter at left tackle. He finished with a 79.4 run-blocking grade and a 70.5 pass-blocking grade on the season.

• Jack Sanborn made PFF's NFL All-Rookie Team.
  (https://www.pff.com/news/nfl-2022-nfl-a ... r-and-more)
  

  Sanborn was a revelation in his albeit brief stint as the starting linebacker for the Bears. In six games as a starter, he racked up 24 defensive stops. Extrapolate that to a full 17-game season, and it would have ranked second in the league. That’s quite the start of a career.

[wab]

In case anyone missed this:

• Justin Fields was named the Bears MVP and Offensive Player of the Year
  (https://www.chicagobears.com/news/field ... f-the-year)

• Eddie Jackson was named the Bears Defensive Player of the Year
  (https://www.chicagobears.com/news/jacks ... f-the-year)

• Jaquan Brisker was named the Bears Rookie of the Year
  (https://www.chicagobears.com/news/brisk ... f-the-year).
  
  He was also named the the Bears "unsung hero" of 2022 by Nick Shook at nfl.com
  (https://www.nfl.com/news/nfl-s-unsung-h ... contributo)

  I love what the Bears have in their secondary. Brisker and nickelback Kyler Gordon (Gordon was selected 39th overall and Brisker was drafted 48th, both in the second round) are talented defensive backs who beefed up Chicago's back end and are primed to make plays for years to come. Brisker only finished with one interception to Gordon's three, but anyone who watched the Bears on a weekly basis is well aware of the safety's exciting potential. The team's own site even named him Chicago's Rookie of the Year. I agree with that designation, and I can't wait to see how he develops.

  And he was named to PFF's NFL All-Rookie Team.
  (https://www.pff.com/news/nfl-2022-nfl-a ... r-and-more)

  Brisker always seemed to be around the ball for Chicago as a rookie. He finished his first season with 28 defensive stops, the 10th-most of any safety in the league. And he did it all from a number of alignments, with 371 snaps coming from the slot, 150 along the line of scrimmage, 289 deep and 100 from the slot.

• Braxton Jones has been selected to the Pro Football Writers of America's 2022 NFL All-Rookie Team.
  (https://www.chicagobears.com/news/braxt ... ookie-team)
  
  He also made PFF's NFL All-Rookie Team.
  (https://www.pff.com/news/nfl-2022-nfl-a ... r-and-more)

  One of the steals of the draft class so far. The Bears' fifth-rounder did enough to put himself as their undisputed long-term starter at left tackle. He finished with a 79.4 run-blocking grade and a 70.5 pass-blocking grade on the season.

• Jack Sanborn made PFF's NFL All-Rookie Team.
  (https://www.pff.com/news/nfl-2022-nfl-a ... r-and-more)
  

  Sanborn was a revelation in his albeit brief stint as the starting linebacker for the Bears. In six games as a starter, he racked up 24 defensive stops. Extrapolate that to a full 17-game season, and it would have ranked second in the league. That’s quite the start of a career.

Thanks for this!

[RichH55]

Well yeah.

That's half the fun.

Abusing each other.

I’m ready for it and I’m open about and at peace with my lack of NFL knowledge.

I obviously don’t see the same faults in Justin Fields as everyone else.

I don’t really focus too much on the quality of the passing or the volume of passing yards. Fields is a winner & a play maker. Those qualities don’t always show up in raw stats.
If he never throws more than 150 yards a game but leads the Bears to multiple championships he won’t get one iota of criticism from me

We won 3 games

[RichH55]

In case anyone missed this:

• Justin Fields was named the Bears MVP and Offensive Player of the Year
  (https://www.chicagobears.com/news/field ... f-the-year)

• Eddie Jackson was named the Bears Defensive Player of the Year
  (https://www.chicagobears.com/news/jacks ... f-the-year)

• Jaquan Brisker was named the Bears Rookie of the Year
  (https://www.chicagobears.com/news/brisk ... f-the-year).
  
  He was also named the the Bears "unsung hero" of 2022 by Nick Shook at nfl.com
  (https://www.nfl.com/news/nfl-s-unsung-h ... contributo)

  I love what the Bears have in their secondary. Brisker and nickelback Kyler Gordon (Gordon was selected 39th overall and Brisker was drafted 48th, both in the second round) are talented defensive backs who beefed up Chicago's back end and are primed to make plays for years to come. Brisker only finished with one interception to Gordon's three, but anyone who watched the Bears on a weekly basis is well aware of the safety's exciting potential. The team's own site even named him Chicago's Rookie of the Year. I agree with that designation, and I can't wait to see how he develops.

  And he was named to PFF's NFL All-Rookie Team.
  (https://www.pff.com/news/nfl-2022-nfl-a ... r-and-more)

  Brisker always seemed to be around the ball for Chicago as a rookie. He finished his first season with 28 defensive stops, the 10th-most of any safety in the league. And he did it all from a number of alignments, with 371 snaps coming from the slot, 150 along the line of scrimmage, 289 deep and 100 from the slot.

• Braxton Jones has been selected to the Pro Football Writers of America's 2022 NFL All-Rookie Team.
  (https://www.chicagobears.com/news/braxt ... ookie-team)
  
  He also made PFF's NFL All-Rookie Team.
  (https://www.pff.com/news/nfl-2022-nfl-a ... r-and-more)

  One of the steals of the draft class so far. The Bears' fifth-rounder did enough to put himself as their undisputed long-term starter at left tackle. He finished with a 79.4 run-blocking grade and a 70.5 pass-blocking grade on the season.

• Jack Sanborn made PFF's NFL All-Rookie Team.
  (https://www.pff.com/news/nfl-2022-nfl-a ... r-and-more)
  

  Sanborn was a revelation in his albeit brief stint as the starting linebacker for the Bears. In six games as a starter, he racked up 24 defensive stops. Extrapolate that to a full 17-game season, and it would have ranked second in the league. That’s quite the start of a career.

Good stuff