DL Reconstruction…so far

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Yogi da Bear
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dplank wrote: Mon Mar 20, 2023 12:17 pm Well Yogi, you do have the Mahomes call in your back pocket to justify going against the experts. But I still side with the multiple experts who watched all the film and said Carter was the best prospect. I just don't watch enough college ball myself to feel comfortable going against them, particularly when so many of them saw it the same way.
It's already starting DP--AA's meteoric rise. AA has already gone from 15 to 7 with Draft Buzz. For those of you clamouring for Van Ness at #9, guess what? AA has already surpassed him on their board. There's no reason he shouldn't surpass Kancey at #4 soon. AA is bigger, faster, stronger with better production and oh yeah, much longer arms. https://www.nfldraftbuzz.com/positions/DL/1/2023
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TheWorldBreaker wrote: Tue Mar 21, 2023 9:21 pm
karhu wrote: Tue Mar 21, 2023 8:50 pm

Like Pat Mahomes?

It's more important for your first-round pick make a significant contribution. That seems about as far as history would take the idea.
They had an established QB and traded up to 10 and it was still majorly criticized by a lot of people and a lot of their fans at the time, especially since Mahomes comp out of college was Jay Cutler.

When you earn your way into the top 10 the expectation is someone is going to come in and help you make an impact to start the turn around.

And when your first, first round draft pick in the draft is say Kevin White it can cast a shadow over your reign.
That's your expectation. Other people have different expectations. The passive voice is telling here: It is a truth universally acknowledged....

Bad draft picks are bad. No argument there. Though Pace managed to live in the shadow of the White pick for six whole years.
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Shea McClellin was a bad draft pick. Kevin White was an unlucky draft pick.

I think some context should always be applied. But the results are still the same.
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wab wrote: Wed Mar 22, 2023 11:54 am Shea McClellin was a bad draft pick. Kevin White was an unlucky draft pick.

I think some context should always be applied. But the results are still the same.
I'll agree that Kevin White is the post child of injuries ruining any chance at success in the NFL. I still say it was a bad pick at the time. He was a one-year wonder who didn't come from a complex offense and his route tree was very limited. Plus, if I recall correctly, reports where he wasn't overly bright. I'm not talking about book smarts but football smarts. I think one of the reasons he had such a limited route tree was that was all he could grasp (I may be putting a revisional twist on that).

I just know I hated the pick at the time. Then we saw how it all played out. Maybe if he hadn't fractured his leg walking to practice it would have turned out differently, but I think even if that didn't happen he had bust written all over him and he would have accomplished that. :sick:
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I agree Ark, I was super pissed when we took White. WVU had a pinball offense that racked up stats for everyone. White had great physical traits but didn’t have to really learn the position there, he just got the ball and took off - or took off then got the ball. He was just drafted way too high for as raw as he was.
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Well, we do know that Yogi can be sensitive to a meteoric rise, sometimes to his detriment--Akili Smith for those of us who remember. Poor bastard. You'll never live that one down. I'm sure I have a pretty long list of my own.
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With as many holes as we have, you dont spend your first round choice on raw or project players. You dont have that luxury. I would think we do best OT available. That being said if Carter is there and he has convinced you his issues were a blip then you grab him. Wouldnt shock me to trade down a bit since you need more picks to fill so many holes and then maybe you grab best Edge available or a OL like Jones from Ga.

Then again I dont know much lol
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Umbali wrote: Wed Mar 22, 2023 6:54 pm With as many holes as we have, you dont spend your first round choice on raw or project players. You dont have that luxury.
Players who are risky? Depends on your appetite for risk, but I'd lean no.
Luxury picks? Probably not.
But physical talents who need a year of development, I think we're in great position for. Poles has already said he has no expectation or intent of fixing it all this year anyway.
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Yogi da Bear
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Noots wrote: Wed Mar 22, 2023 4:33 pm Well, we do know that Yogi can be sensitive to a meteoric rise, sometimes to his detriment--Akili Smith for those of us who remember. Poor bastard. You'll never live that one down. I'm sure I have a pretty long list of my own.
Guilty as charged. :ashamed: Sheesh, you make one mistake nearly a quarter of a century ago, and people never let you live it down. :flick: lol

In fairness to me, I identified Akili before anybody on the board had ever even heard of him, and he ended up being the third player chosen. Yet I was firmly against trading up for him. After he was chosen, I wanted nothing to do with Cade McNown and wanted to take Duante Culpepper with our pick. Obviously, I'm pretty good identifying the physical qualities of players. How was I to know that Akili was as dumb as a sack of rocks. Maybe his 9 (I think) on the Wunderlik should have clued me in. But then he followed that up with like a 36. Guess, I should have figured he cheated. :stupid:

Oh well.... Perhaps a better example would be when I wanted to trade Cutler and our first for Marcus Mariotta. But then I look at who our first was--Kevin White, and I think, 'hmmmm.' :?

I absolutely nailed that Mahommes draft though. Not only did I insist on Mahommes, I also took Tanoh Kpassingon, George Kittle, and Matt Milano. Also took Bug Howard in the seventh. Oh well, probably the best haul I ever had though. ;)
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Yogi da Bear wrote: Thu Mar 23, 2023 12:50 pm
Noots wrote: Wed Mar 22, 2023 4:33 pm Well, we do know that Yogi can be sensitive to a meteoric rise, sometimes to his detriment--Akili Smith for those of us who remember. Poor bastard. You'll never live that one down. I'm sure I have a pretty long list of my own.
Guilty as charged. :ashamed: Sheesh, you make one mistake nearly a quarter of a century ago, and people never let you live it down. :flick: lol

In fairness to me, I identified Akili before anybody on the board had ever even heard of him, and he ended up being the third player chosen. Yet I was firmly against trading up for him. After he was chosen, I wanted nothing to do with Cade McNown and wanted to take Duante Culpepper with our pick. Obviously, I'm pretty good identifying the physical qualities of players. How was I to know that Akili was as dumb as a sack of rocks. Maybe his 9 (I think) on the Wunderlik should have clued me in. But then he followed that up with like a 36. Guess, I should have figured he cheated. :stupid:

Oh well.... Perhaps a better example would be when I wanted to trade Cutler and our first for Marcus Mariotta. But then I look at who our first was--Kevin White, and I think, 'hmmmm.' :?

I absolutely nailed that Mahommes draft though. Not only did I insist on Mahommes, I also took Tanoh Kpassingon, George Kittle, and Matt Milano. Also took Bug Howard in the seventh. Oh well, probably the best haul I ever had though. ;)
Yogi I remember that draft and though it was amazing before the draft and now that we have a read on those guys it would be one of the best drafts of all time. But I don't remember would your draft have been possible based on when guys went off the board. For example I just looked it up Kittle went with pick 146, would he have been on the board when you took him? It doesn't minimize how you correctly identified talent that year, just wondering if the draft is truly a "what could have been."

Looking forward to the picnic baskets!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! :grovel: :headbang: :jump:
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Yes Ark, all those guys were there when I took them in my basket. Took Kpassignon at 45, Kittle at 117, and Milano at 147.

Of course, I missed out on Eddie Jackson and Tariq Cohen. :(
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karhu wrote: Wed Mar 22, 2023 10:18 am
TheWorldBreaker wrote: Tue Mar 21, 2023 9:21 pm

They had an established QB and traded up to 10 and it was still majorly criticized by a lot of people and a lot of their fans at the time, especially since Mahomes comp out of college was Jay Cutler.

When you earn your way into the top 10 the expectation is someone is going to come in and help you make an impact to start the turn around.

And when your first, first round draft pick in the draft is say Kevin White it can cast a shadow over your reign.
That's your expectation. Other people have different expectations. The passive voice is telling here: It is a truth universally acknowledged....

Bad draft picks are bad. No argument there. Though Pace managed to live in the shadow of the White pick for six whole years.
The entire point of the draft and why people who are fans of bad teams care is because with a good pick they can get a player to change their franchise. So the expectations of a top 10 pick are extraordinarily high for the overwhelmingly majority of people.

There is a reason “potential gets people fired” is a cliche in the NFL.

Van Ness has impressive tape but he’s a one trick pony and won’t be a top 10 pick caliber player unless he develops some counters. Plenty of players with potential that needed to develop counters have failed to do so for whatever reason, so all I’m saying is there’s a big risk to drafting a young raw player and I’m not sure a second year GM would take that swing. Or possibly that he might not even be high enough on their board to make that choice based on how raw he is.
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TheWorldBreaker wrote: Thu Mar 23, 2023 9:18 pm
karhu wrote: Wed Mar 22, 2023 10:18 am

That's your expectation. Other people have different expectations. The passive voice is telling here: It is a truth universally acknowledged....

Bad draft picks are bad. No argument there. Though Pace managed to live in the shadow of the White pick for six whole years.
The entire point of the draft and why people who are fans of bad teams care is because with a good pick they can get a player to change their franchise. So the expectations of a top 10 pick are extraordinarily high for the overwhelmingly majority of people.

There is a reason “potential gets people fired” is a cliche in the NFL.

Van Ness has impressive tape but he’s a one trick pony and won’t be a top 10 pick caliber player unless he develops some counters. Plenty of players with potential that needed to develop counters have failed to do so for whatever reason, so all I’m saying is there’s a big risk to drafting a young raw player and I’m not sure a second year GM would take that swing. Or possibly that he might not even be high enough on their board to make that choice based on how raw he is.
I mentioned Mahomes because he was in no way, shape or form ready to take a snap in the NFL when he was drafted. Regardless of KC's situation, he'd have needed a whole year just to work on his mechanics and the way he processed the game.

Anyhoo, at least we're not considering Adebawore. If there's anything worse than a raw player with a thing or two to learn about the game, it's an experienced, polished player who's only half as productive as the raw guy.
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I wouldn't say that AA is polished at all. He basically uses only his speed and a bull rush. He needs to develop some moves, particularly inside.
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Yogi da Bear wrote: Fri Mar 24, 2023 9:56 am I wouldn't say that AA is polished at all. He basically uses only his speed and a bull rush. He needs to develop some moves, particularly inside.
I agree. That was a rhetorical point against the assertion that Van Ness is somehow considerably more raw than most of the other DEs at the top of the draft. [EDIT: I like AA a lot, and so do most of us here. That's why I used him as an example.] I don't see JVN as meaningfully more underdeveloped than Murphy, Wilson, or AA. And Wilson is the only one who approaches JVN's per-snap production (beats him by the better part of a sack, but JVN still generated more pressures per snap).

It's entirely fair to be leery of drafting a player who still needs to add some fundamental pieces to his game. It's also not rare. Maybe most importantly, there aren't any compelling alternatives in this draft. It could be a very good year for pass-rushers...and every single one of them might still need to add a foundational move or two. It extends down into the second round: I like Uzomah a whole lot, but he's another guy who's all effort and traits. The polished guys, Anderson and McDonald, aren't great fits for our scheme IMSO.
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There are gonna be several raw kids who have great traits this year. I would be surprised if any of them go Top 10 (AA, Van Ness, Georgia Tech kid are whom I am mainly thinking of)
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Van Ness????? Why all the love?

The kid was not even a starter in college. Now we expect him to be some kinda JJ Watt or something?

He may turn out to be very good but I am getting some serious Mamula vibes here. 2nd or 3rd round I would be fine. But as a first-rounder? Hell no.

I could be wrong about him but my theory is you don't go for unknowns in the first round. EVER. Let someone else roll the dice on them.

But if you can't be a starter in college why in the hell would we think he can start in the NFL? Ok maybe on our D-Line but not for most.
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EricTighe wrote: Fri Mar 24, 2023 11:02 am Van Ness????? Why all the love?

The kid was not even a starter in college. Now we expect him to be some kinda JJ Watt or something?

He may turn out to be very good but I am getting some serious Mamula vibes here. 2nd or 3rd round I would be fine. But as a first-rounder? Hell no.

I could be wrong about him but my theory is you don't go for unknowns in the first round. EVER. Let someone else roll the dice on them.

But if you can't be a starter in college why in the hell would we think he can start in the NFL? Ok maybe on our D-Line but not for most.
The Mike Mamula stuff is funny in retrospect. He moved up in the draft due to good workouts (So did Dwight Freeney btw) But people act like they drafted a clown

Mamula - career relatively short - but he had multiple 8 Sack seasons - and I think he made the All-Rookie team?

Mamula as mega bust - cautionary tale is WAY overblown

And the NFL now absolutely looks for Height/Weight/Speed guys - way more than they did then.

Van Ness - you just have to teach him how to play- He has everything else covered, ha
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Mamula vibes! Haven’t heard that one in a while well played.

The draft seems to be setup for us to take our RT at 9. I’m curious to hear from the draft experts here which DL look like good fits with our 3 picks in rd2/3?
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dplank wrote: Fri Mar 24, 2023 11:10 am Mamula vibes! Haven’t heard that one in a while well played.

The draft seems to be setup for us to take our RT at 9. I’m curious to hear from the draft experts here which DL look like good fits with our 3 picks in rd2/3?
The Wisconsin kid should definitely be on the Radar

Bowling Green kid too
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RichH55 wrote: Fri Mar 24, 2023 11:11 am
dplank wrote: Fri Mar 24, 2023 11:10 am Mamula vibes! Haven’t heard that one in a while well played.

The draft seems to be setup for us to take our RT at 9. I’m curious to hear from the draft experts here which DL look like good fits with our 3 picks in rd2/3?
The Wisconsin kid should definitely be on the Radar
Benton?
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Richmond Park! How long ago was that?
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karhu wrote: Fri Mar 24, 2023 1:51 pm Richmond Park! How long ago was that?
11-12 years :(
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dplank wrote: Fri Mar 24, 2023 11:10 am Mamula vibes! Haven’t heard that one in a while well played.

The draft seems to be setup for us to take our RT at 9. I’m curious to hear from the draft experts here which DL look like good fits with our 3 picks in rd2/3?
According to PFF draft simulation #1006:
Second:
Tuipulotu ED (maybe 3T)
Carter ED
Karl Brooks Bowling Green ED (probably 3T)
Nick Herbig ED (probably 3-4 guy)
Third round:
Siaki Ika (NT)
Keeanu Benton (DL)
Derick Hall (smallish edge but super quick and top end speed to power)

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Ditka’s dictaphone wrote: Fri Mar 24, 2023 2:49 pm
karhu wrote: Fri Mar 24, 2023 1:51 pm Richmond Park! How long ago was that?
11-12 years :(
Not long after I was last there. Damn, that was a lifetime ago. I'd ask about the emoji, but something tells me that I don't want to know.
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karhu wrote: Fri Mar 24, 2023 6:23 pm
Ditka’s dictaphone wrote: Fri Mar 24, 2023 2:49 pm

11-12 years :(
Not long after I was last there. Damn, that was a lifetime ago. I'd ask about the emoji, but something tells me that I don't want to know.
No nothing bad just a sad reminder of how old I’m getting
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Ditka’s dictaphone wrote: Fri Mar 24, 2023 6:25 pm
karhu wrote: Fri Mar 24, 2023 6:23 pm

Not long after I was last there. Damn, that was a lifetime ago. I'd ask about the emoji, but something tells me that I don't want to know.
No nothing bad just a sad reminder of how old I’m getting
Whew! Well, I'll see you our advancing age and raise you a failed relationship, if that helps.
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karhu wrote: Fri Mar 24, 2023 6:30 pm
Ditka’s dictaphone wrote: Fri Mar 24, 2023 6:25 pm

No nothing bad just a sad reminder of how old I’m getting
Whew! Well, I'll see you our advancing age and raise you a failed relationship, if that helps.
Bah! Amateurs! I'm such an overachiever, I've been divorced twice!

Now get off my lawn!
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dplank wrote:I agree with Rich here
RichH55 wrote: Dplank is correct
:shocked:
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dave99 wrote: Fri Mar 24, 2023 4:04 pm
dplank wrote: Fri Mar 24, 2023 11:10 am Mamula vibes! Haven’t heard that one in a while well played.

The draft seems to be setup for us to take our RT at 9. I’m curious to hear from the draft experts here which DL look like good fits with our 3 picks in rd2/3?
According to PFF draft simulation #1006:
Second:
Tuipulotu ED (maybe 3T)
Carter ED
Karl Brooks Bowling Green ED (probably 3T)
Nick Herbig ED (probably 3-4 guy)
Third round:
Siaki Ika (NT)
Keeanu Benton (DL)
Derick Hall (smallish edge but super quick and top end speed to power)

Availability varies but the rankings are constant and often at odds with other sites
Too much ED here Dave...
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karhu wrote: Fri Mar 24, 2023 6:30 pm
Ditka’s dictaphone wrote: Fri Mar 24, 2023 6:25 pm

No nothing bad just a sad reminder of how old I’m getting
Whew! Well, I'll see you our advancing age and raise you a failed relationship, if that helps.
We can still make it work...
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