(This is a bumped thread) Vet Edge Rusher...

[IE]

So, you don’t like trading picks for players, but you understand the Claypool deal. And you also don’t support signing a FA DE even though that doesnt require giving up any picks because it may take some snaps from a 5th round project drafted a year ago? Ok I guess, I don’t really get it. Seems like a pretzel twist of a take bud.

I might agree on DE if he had spent a higher pick there, this year or last. But I’m not ok letting a position group be dependent on a 5th round drafted DE that was playing quarterback just a couple years ago. That’s not a smart bet IMO.

Don't know where you're getting this stuff.

I'll rephrase it, I guess: I don't support trading draft picks for players, if there are other legit options. Again, there were apparently no good forseeable options in FA or the draft when Poles got Claypool. There are legit FA options now ... so it is not the same thing at all. How is that hard to understand? I think you're the only one twisting.

Smart bet, or not - it seems to be Poles' bet. I don't know why he didn't pick a DE at some point in the draft, but I think it is reasonable to assume that in his perspective those players didn't offer any sure upside over what he already has, so he made other picks that did. I think it implies Poles has some faith in DomRob's development. It is reasonable.

I've been saying I support them picking up a FA & even named a few I'd like... so maybe you have me confused with someone else? I mean it is all over the place - me saying I'd like them to sign Clark or Quinn or Clowney or whoever to play on the other side from Walker in a half-time role (giving DomRob his dev snaps).

[wulfy]

Still wish we had moved up for Foskey.

[IE]

Still wish we had moved up for Foskey.

There is almost no doubt that of the DEs that were picked after the first round, one or more will ascend and be a great player. There were a lot of them, and it was considered a deep draft for edge/DE.

My take is Poles & friends did their evaluation of those players and had some they liked if they fell to them - but obviously given what actually happend they weren't compelled enough by any one of them as the draft unfolded to trade up for them. And then none fell to them, and they picked players they thought would add more marginal value at their position than the DEs available even though it was a position of potential need.

I do think they likely evaluated those available picks against what they feel they already have AND their projection of their options in FA, and just decided to go in another direction than DE on draft day, pick after pick. I'm guessing they're watching the DE FA market like they watched the draft... just monitoring who is left out of who they like, and at some point they'll add a FA if they feel there is value over what they think they already have & at the right price. I can see them thinking there is no reason to make a move right now, given the volume of FA available and likely multiple players they like. I think if they don't pick up a FA in the offseason they still might during the season if the team is competing. I think they'll adjust their approach and spend a little more on a rental or even execute a trade if they think that guy can play better than what they're seeing from their own players (once they've seen them in action) and they want the boost. I'm not in favor of trading for FA but to make a playoff run that's another situation where I'll understand & grit my teeth.

[dplank]

So, you don’t like trading picks for players, but you understand the Claypool deal. And you also don’t support signing a FA DE even though that doesnt require giving up any picks because it may take some snaps from a 5th round project drafted a year ago? Ok I guess, I don’t really get it. Seems like a pretzel twist of a take bud.

I might agree on DE if he had spent a higher pick there, this year or last. But I’m not ok letting a position group be dependent on a 5th round drafted DE that was playing quarterback just a couple years ago. That’s not a smart bet IMO.

Don't know where you're getting this stuff.

I'll rephrase it, I guess: I don't support trading draft picks for players, if there are other legit options. Again, there were apparently no good forseeable options in FA or the draft when Poles got Claypool. There are legit FA options now ... so it is not the same thing at all. How is that hard to understand? I think you're the only one twisting.

Smart bet, or not - it seems to be Poles' bet. I don't know why he didn't pick a DE at some point in the draft, but I think it is reasonable to assume that in his perspective those players didn't offer any sure upside over what he already has, so he made other picks that did. I think it implies Poles has some faith in DomRob's development. It is reasonable.

I've been saying I support them picking up a FA & even named a few I'd like... so maybe you have me confused with someone else? I mean it is all over the place - me saying I'd like them to sign Clark or Quinn or Clowney or whoever to play on the other side from Walker in a half-time role (giving DomRob his dev snaps).

Oh yea I was confused by your DE take. We agree on that then, sign a vet and DomRob still gets snaps but isn't a starter/relied upon.

This quote just still, after re-reading, just is inconsistent

Again, why would Poles want to expend the resources to get one of these other guys when he's just drafted a bunch of guys he wants to develop & believes in? And the excess cost of buying FA is the type of thing that ended up sinking Pace. Paying too much for FA for core/foundational players seems unwise.

Just insert the name Claypool for FA in your post above and I think you'll see why. "The excess cost of buying Claypool [for a high 2nd] is the type of thing that ended up sinking Pace. Paying too much for Claypool seems unwise". The counter you gave that he had no option but to do so is simply false. He had lots of options. He could have done nothing since we were tanking anyways, kept the pick and used it on a WR - that's absolutely a viable option and one choice that he had. He also could have signed a different FA that would have cost us no draft capital. He also could have traded lesser draft capital for a different player. He had options, he chose unwisely IMO for the reasons you said in your quote. That's what I found to be inconsistent. "He had no choice" is not a viable defense of the move.

This is friendly discourse between two posters who can act like adults. So mods, please don't freak out because the dreaded "claypool" name has come up in a discussion. IE is a big boy as am I.

Also, I'm not claiming it won't work out - it might. Claypool may play great and it'll all be viewed positively. I just agree with your statement that this type of behavior is Ryan Pace-like and not something that we want to see a lot of from Poles.

[IE]

My point is extenuating circumstances do exist, and "he had no choice" is absolutely legit. It doesn't change the rule of thumb I shared about overpaying in trades or FA - which I firmly believe was the origin of Pace's demise as a GM.

There was zero way Poles was going into '23 with only Mooney and ESB and some day two draft pick as JF1's WRs. IIRC Poles himself said he didn't feel like he had a choice, and explained he did have urgency to shore up the WR position. You're saying he had options - but he indicated he didn't think that was the case. I agree with him - I think the FAs were garbage, and draft WRs are hit & miss. Pool had two 900 yard seasons under his belt. You can't compare a draft pick with that.

The reason we know he's being real about his perspective on this, is his subsequent lack of urgency / panic in FA. He literally sat in an interview and said there are a lot of things he could do around the DE position if they feel they need to. He literally said they have options.

Straight out of the GM's mouth: "We needed to do this, given the circumstances" (no choice), versus "We still have several options" (choice). How is that contradictory?

[dplank]

My point is extenuating circumstances do exist, and "he had no choice" is absolutely legit. It doesn't change the rule of thumb I shared about overpaying in trades or FA - which I firmly believe was the origin of Pace's demise as a GM.

There was zero way Poles was going into '23 with only Mooney and ESB and some day two draft pick as JF1's WRs. IIRC Poles himself said he didn't feel like he had a choice, and explained he did have urgency to shore up the WR position. You're saying he had options - but he indicated he didn't think that was the case. I agree with him - I think the FAs were garbage, and draft WRs are hit & miss. Pool had two 900 yard seasons under his belt. You can't compare a draft pick with that.

The reason we know he's being real about his perspective on this, is his subsequent lack of urgency / panic in FA. He literally sat in an interview and said there are a lot of things he could do around the DE position if they feel they need to. He literally said they have options.

Straight out of the GM's mouth: "We needed to do this, given the circumstances" (no choice), versus "We still have several options" (choice). How is that contradictory?

You're taking his defense of a move as a fact, it's not. The fact is he had choices and this isn't remotely debatable. He did not HAVE to sign anyone, full stop. That's simply the most basic human logic possible. You can debate whether or not it was a good move, that's fine, but shutting off that debate falsely claiming he had a gun to his head is poppycock.

[IE]

My point is extenuating circumstances do exist, and "he had no choice" is absolutely legit. It doesn't change the rule of thumb I shared about overpaying in trades or FA - which I firmly believe was the origin of Pace's demise as a GM.

There was zero way Poles was going into '23 with only Mooney and ESB and some day two draft pick as JF1's WRs. IIRC Poles himself said he didn't feel like he had a choice, and explained he did have urgency to shore up the WR position. You're saying he had options - but he indicated he didn't think that was the case. I agree with him - I think the FAs were garbage, and draft WRs are hit & miss. Pool had two 900 yard seasons under his belt. You can't compare a draft pick with that.

The reason we know he's being real about his perspective on this, is his subsequent lack of urgency / panic in FA. He literally sat in an interview and said there are a lot of things he could do around the DE position if they feel they need to. He literally said they have options.

Straight out of the GM's mouth: "We needed to do this, given the circumstances" (no choice), versus "We still have several options" (choice). How is that contradictory?

You're taking his defense of a move as a fact, it's not. The fact is he had choices and this isn't remotely debatable. He did not HAVE to sign anyone, full stop. That's simply the most basic human logic possible. You can debate whether or not it was a good move, that's fine, but shutting off that debate falsely claiming he had a gun to his head is poppycock.

Sure he could do nothing. Doing nothing is always an option, and he's showing that now.

Let me be clear - I'm trying to explain why I think things happen, and what they're thinking. I'm saying I agree with their stated positions that they had no choice then and now they do. I hardly think my reasonable take on what they're thinking is poppycock.

I did say I believe it is a mistake to invest too much capital buying talent intead of drafting it, and why. It's my opinion, and although we do see some player trades or big buck signings that DO work out I personally believe far more often than not they end up causing more pain for the over-spending organization than they bring success. I believe that is a core principle of Poles' approach, and shouldn't be a surprise - even though we're used to GMs panicking.

What I'm not doing is establishing my opinion as a hard rule, or pounding the table saying they "clearly" made a mistake with Pool or the current situation with D is a mistake. That decisive domain is for others. I don't believe it is kosher to say strongly that someone made a mistake & then follow that with "it may work out" or "I hope it does". I suppose it could be spun as "they just got amazingly lucky" but I personally wouldn't buy that - I'd consider the original strong opinion to be simply wrong. It doesn't hurt to be wrong, and it makes it more fun when people put stakes in the ground and defend them without hedging.

I've found myself defending Poles almost always, and so far so good.

[dplank]

lol...ok bud.

[LacertineForest]

[crueltyabc]

The Dayo Odeyingbo idea is good.

Bryce Huff is not a fit IMO he's more of an OLB type.

Danielle Hunter is interesting because I think the Bears would only be paying his base salary? That means one year of Hunter for $5m. That's a good value BUT if he would just show up and hold out and bash the Bears on instagram that's obv not a good idea.

Everybody should note there's an easy out with DeMarcus Walker's contract after next year. If the Bears add a vet this year they can still draft a guy next year:

DE1: Lawson
DE2: Walker
DE3: 1st round rookie (J.T. Tuimoloau from OSU or Jared Verse from FSU)
DE4: Gipson/DomRob

That's not crazy. A team with a cheap young offense could easily have this investment in the dline

[Moriarty]

Everybody should note there's an easy out with DeMarcus Walker's contract after next year. If the Bears add a vet this year they can still draft a guy next year:

2024+ contracts aren't a problem at all

Green FA
Gipson FA
Walker escapable
New FA? should be a 1 yr, or a 2yr with easy out

There will be LOTS of room for next draft

[crueltyabc]

New FA? should be a 1 yr, or a 2yr with easy out

I think there's room for a Montez Sweat or Carl Lawson type to sign a 5-year deal and fit in the plan. They'd help the ascension of this team and still be on that contract when Fields gets paid and the team is contending. Its not the same as Khalil Mack because the Bears will still have draft picks in the meantime.

[Grizzled]

I'm in the corner of Justin Houston, who's 34 but still has brought it the past few years. Most likely, though, he'll want to go to a contender. One possibility might be Bryce Huff of the Jets. They're pretty full at DL and still need to squeeze in an extension for Quinnen Williams. Huff is only 25 and an very strong pure pass rusher. Should be available for a 4th.

[RichH55]

New FA? should be a 1 yr, or a 2yr with easy out

I think there's room for a Montez Sweat or Carl Lawson type to sign a 5-year deal and fit in the plan. They'd help the ascension of this team and still be on that contract when Fields gets paid and the team is contending. Its not the same as Khalil Mack because the Bears will still have draft picks in the meantime.

I really like there's a real sizeable gap between Sweat and Lawson

[BreadNCircuses]

I think there's room for a Montez Sweat or Carl Lawson type to sign a 5-year deal and fit in the plan. They'd help the ascension of this team and still be on that contract when Fields gets paid and the team is contending. Its not the same as Khalil Mack because the Bears will still have draft picks in the meantime.

I really like there's a real sizeable gap between Sweat and Lawson

Lawson just reworked his contract with the Jets less than a week ago so I don't see him going anywhere, this year at least.
I haven't watched a ton of him, but, living in the DC-area I've seen enough of Sweat I don't think he's anything special.

[crueltyabc]

Josh Schrock keeps pushing for Smoot. I assume he'll re-sign with Jax but this thread is for veteran FA edge daydreaming...

[Arkansasbear]

https://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2 ... contender/

Ngakoue says he wants to help a contender win a Super Bowl. So we may be off his list unless we back up a truck of money to him, which I don't see Poles doing.

[bearsoldier]

https://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2 ... contender/

Ngakoue says he wants to help a contender win a Super Bowl. So we may be off his list unless we back up a truck of money to him, which I don't see Poles doing.

I suppose it explains why we have not signed him... He may drop his "contender" plans and take less $$ as the weeks go by and no other teams sign him.

[RichH55]

Justin Houston is still the one I want

[The Grizzly One]

Floyd off the table. That's a good thing I believe.

[crueltyabc]

Nothing surprising about the contract which is a good thing.

"The deal is worth up to $9 million with basic sack incentives ($7 million base value)" per Rapsheet

I sorta feel like the Bears just have to wait for the "contenders" to all get their guy and Poles decides if he wants to pay the leftovers $1m/sack

[bearsoldier]

...unless it is a big-time long term signing (e.g. Chase Young). But I doubt that - I think it would be a one year rental like we've been discussing.

[The Marshall Plan]

Let's not be sending draft picks to acquire a guy who has played in like 12 games over the past two years.

[IE]

Let's not be sending draft picks to acquire a guy who has played in like 12 games over the past two years.

Agreed. There would have to be overwhelming confidence (or at least whelming confidence) that he is past his injuries. The traditional way that is handled is mitigating risk through conditional picks with snap count or the like. I would be fine with that if Washington would accept some of that risk.

[dplank]

I’d send a 5th on a wing and a prayer, but no more.

[Moriarty]

Washington:

We're not picking up the 5Y option, because his future is too uncertain
We're looking to trade him, because we're not sure he can help much this year, not sure we will want to resign him, and he's the least valuable of our starting DL.


Also, we expect a boat-load of picks, because this guy is a game-changing stud!

[Kylo Bearen]

https://www.si.com/nfl/bears/news/expla ... ent-market

[Arkansasbear]

Let's not be sending draft picks to acquire a guy who has played in like 12 games over the past two years.

As @dplank pointed out, it depends on what we are sending. WFT appears to want a 1st for him and if that's true, that's comical. No way would I do that. But if you can send a '24 and '25 5th or somewhere in that ballpark, I might say it's worth looking at.

[Arkansasbear]

Floyd off the table. That's a good thing I believe.

He simply doesn't fit into our defense. I think he can be a product OLB in a 3-4 where he can play in coverage (which I think he is better than average in the NFL) and can bring pressure and give you 7 or so sacks a year.

I think he will have a good year for the Bills.

[wab]

I'd send a 4th for Young that is conditionally a 3rd.