Rd5, P173: WR Darnell Mooney, Tulane

College football and the NFL Draft

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Heinz D. wrote: Sun Mar 17, 2024 5:29 pm
makaur wrote: Sun Mar 17, 2024 4:50 pmWhat I do know is Alt will definitely be there at #1 and a QB will definitely be there at #9 (if you can't tell, I'm not very high on Caleb Williams).
What's your beef with Williams?
Well, full disclosure....I'm a Notre Dame fan. However, that's not the reason why I don't like him.

1) His stats are bloated from playing terrible schedules.

Even when he was at Oklahoma his freshman year, he padded his stats against some pretty terrible competition. The only good game he had that season was against Texas, and they weren't that good that year (Sarkisian's first year as HC). At USC, name one top team that the Trojans defeated with him as their QB? Heck, name one top 10 team any of his college teams defeated when he was the starting QB? In his Heisman year, he played one good team twice and they lost both times. Then they lost in the Sugar Bowl to a Group of 5 team (Tulane). His Junior year, he was tearing up some of the crappiest teams in all of college football until a night in South Bend, Indiana, and ND thoroughly exposed his weaknesses to the point where USC won only one game for the remainder of the regular season...where they had to score over 50 points to defeat a very bad Cal team. USC played three teams this past season with a defense ranked in the top 50 at game time....Notre Dame, Utah, and UCLA. All three of them embarrassed Caleb Williams.

2) He's a bit of a head case.

Google his name and the little messages that he likes to paint on his nails. Apparently, it's a little tradition that he's been doing since high school, where he writes "F*ck" and then the opponents name on his nails. While I'm not against using salty language (as I'm sure you've seen), but I'm also not a high profile QB. He is. Doing stuff like not only shows terrible character, but it puts a target on your back. He was told not to do that for the game against Notre Dame this past season...but he did it the year before. The ND players remembered and they beat his ass to a pulp for it. Then there's the NIL drama of college football. He followed his college coach (Lincoln Riley) from Oklahoma to USC but didn't make it official unless he was guaranteed several millions in NIL money. Why does this matter? Well, he already created some drama by saying that he wouldn't sign with a team without getting a share of ownership without understanding that is against the CBA rules. All of this adds up to a drama queen who is going to hold out if the organization doesn't kiss his ass and I don't know about you but the Bears don't need that kind of drama.

3) Is he talented, of course he is...but it's system related. College system related...

Name one QB that Lincoln Riley has developed who went on to tear up the NFL. Sure, he knows how to develop college QB's who can win the Heisman. Baker Mayfield would probably be the best but it took him 6 years and 3 different teams to figure it out. Kyler Murray was exciting to watch for a year or two but aside from cleaning toilets, what's he doing now? Jalen Hurts...most of his development took place at Alabama, not with Riley at Oklahoma. Then there's Spencer Rattler who will go in this year's draft. The dude was a major talent coming out of HS but couldn't get it together until he got out of Riley's system at a different school. Caleb Williams is just another former Lincoln Riley QB who is short (only 6'1") and made the majority of plays outside the pocket. That doesn't work in the NFL. You have to know how to read a defense and I have some serious doubts that Caleb Williams can do that.

4) Do the Bears even have someone who can develop a QB???

Here's the real problem with Caleb Williams. Yes, I know the Seattle OC dude was hired but he's also going to be in Chicago for one year if Eberflus gets fired after this upcoming season. I'm asking a real question here....who on the Bears coaching staff has a track record for developing QB's? He did admirable resurrecting the career of Geno Smith, but what did they win with him? If Geno Smith's minor success the past two seasons is a measure of this dude's success, then the Bears are in for another really long season.

------------------------------------------------

I don't claim to be Nostradamus, I can't see the future....but I know a turd when I see one. Caleb Williams is a turd. He motivates his opponents to beat him and if there's one rule you should live by, never, ever give your opponents the bulletin board ammunition they need to kick your ass. Caleb Williams does that, a lot. Do you want him writing "Fuck Green Bay" on his nails, and then they body slam his ass into the ground putting him out for the season? I wouldn't want to see that, because then it means the Bears have a Division 2 QB leading the team for the rest of the year (although I do like Tyson Bagent quite a bit, but only as a backup).

Joe Alt on the other hand, is about as sure of a thing as there can be. He's the son of former All-Pro John Alt, he's 6'8" and 320lbs. (not undersized for a LT like our current one) and he dominated whoever was lined up against him since he was a true freshman. Yes, he's a Notre Dame player....yes, I'm a ND fan....but I would want Joe Alt even if you swapped schools with him and Caleb Williams. Taking Joe Alt, with the moves they've made on the OL this offseason, and I'd be more inclined to take a lesser QB like JJ McCarthy, who showed the entire country that you can suck at QB and still win a championship if you have a dominant OL.
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I'm a Joe Alt fan, but if the Bears take him at #1 I might go apoplectic.
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makaur wrote: Tue Mar 19, 2024 6:15 pm
Heinz D. wrote: Sun Mar 17, 2024 5:29 pm

What's your beef with Williams?
Well, full disclosure....I'm a Notre Dame fan. However, that's not the reason why I don't like him.

1) His stats are bloated from playing terrible schedules.

Even when he was at Oklahoma his freshman year, he padded his stats against some pretty terrible competition. The only good game he had that season was against Texas, and they weren't that good that year (Sarkisian's first year as HC). At USC, name one top team that the Trojans defeated with him as their QB? Heck, name one top 10 team any of his college teams defeated when he was the starting QB? In his Heisman year, he played one good team twice and they lost both times. Then they lost in the Sugar Bowl to a Group of 5 team (Tulane). His Junior year, he was tearing up some of the crappiest teams in all of college football until a night in South Bend, Indiana, and ND thoroughly exposed his weaknesses to the point where USC won only one game for the remainder of the regular season...where they had to score over 50 points to defeat a very bad Cal team. USC played three teams this past season with a defense ranked in the top 50 at game time....Notre Dame, Utah, and UCLA. All three of them embarrassed Caleb Williams.

2) He's a bit of a head case.

Google his name and the little messages that he likes to paint on his nails. Apparently, it's a little tradition that he's been doing since high school, where he writes "F*ck" and then the opponents name on his nails. While I'm not against using salty language (as I'm sure you've seen), but I'm also not a high profile QB. He is. Doing stuff like not only shows terrible character, but it puts a target on your back. He was told not to do that for the game against Notre Dame this past season...but he did it the year before. The ND players remembered and they beat his ass to a pulp for it. Then there's the NIL drama of college football. He followed his college coach (Lincoln Riley) from Oklahoma to USC but didn't make it official unless he was guaranteed several millions in NIL money. Why does this matter? Well, he already created some drama by saying that he wouldn't sign with a team without getting a share of ownership without understanding that is against the CBA rules. All of this adds up to a drama queen who is going to hold out if the organization doesn't kiss his ass and I don't know about you but the Bears don't need that kind of drama.

3) Is he talented, of course he is...but it's system related. College system related...

Name one QB that Lincoln Riley has developed who went on to tear up the NFL. Sure, he knows how to develop college QB's who can win the Heisman. Baker Mayfield would probably be the best but it took him 6 years and 3 different teams to figure it out. Kyler Murray was exciting to watch for a year or two but aside from cleaning toilets, what's he doing now? Jalen Hurts...most of his development took place at Alabama, not with Riley at Oklahoma. Then there's Spencer Rattler who will go in this year's draft. The dude was a major talent coming out of HS but couldn't get it together until he got out of Riley's system at a different school. Caleb Williams is just another former Lincoln Riley QB who is short (only 6'1") and made the majority of plays outside the pocket. That doesn't work in the NFL. You have to know how to read a defense and I have some serious doubts that Caleb Williams can do that.

4) Do the Bears even have someone who can develop a QB???

Here's the real problem with Caleb Williams. Yes, I know the Seattle OC dude was hired but he's also going to be in Chicago for one year if Eberflus gets fired after this upcoming season. I'm asking a real question here....who on the Bears coaching staff has a track record for developing QB's? He did admirable resurrecting the career of Geno Smith, but what did they win with him? If Geno Smith's minor success the past two seasons is a measure of this dude's success, then the Bears are in for another really long season.

------------------------------------------------

I don't claim to be Nostradamus, I can't see the future....but I know a turd when I see one. Caleb Williams is a turd. He motivates his opponents to beat him and if there's one rule you should live by, never, ever give your opponents the bulletin board ammunition they need to kick your ass. Caleb Williams does that, a lot. Do you want him writing "Fuck Green Bay" on his nails, and then they body slam his ass into the ground putting him out for the season? I wouldn't want to see that, because then it means the Bears have a Division 2 QB leading the team for the rest of the year (although I do like Tyson Bagent quite a bit, but only as a backup).

Joe Alt on the other hand, is about as sure of a thing as there can be. He's the son of former All-Pro John Alt, he's 6'8" and 320lbs. (not undersized for a LT like our current one) and he dominated whoever was lined up against him since he was a true freshman. Yes, he's a Notre Dame player....yes, I'm a ND fan....but I would want Joe Alt even if you swapped schools with him and Caleb Williams. Taking Joe Alt, with the moves they've made on the OL this offseason, and I'd be more inclined to take a lesser QB like JJ McCarthy, who showed the entire country that you can suck at QB and still win a championship if you have a dominant OL.
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wab wrote: Tue Mar 19, 2024 6:55 pm I'm a Joe Alt fan, but if the Bears take him at #1 I might go apoplectic.
They already traded their starting QB away. There is no chance they don't take a QB with their top pick.
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dplank wrote:I agree with Rich here
RichH55 wrote: Dplank is correct
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makaur wrote: Tue Mar 19, 2024 6:15 pm

2) He's a bit of a head case.

Google his name and the little messages that he likes to paint on his nails. Apparently, it's a little tradition that he's been doing since high school, where he writes "F*ck" and then the opponents name on his nails. While I'm not against using salty language (as I'm sure you've seen), but I'm also not a high profile QB. He is. Doing stuff like not only shows terrible character, but it puts a target on your back. He was told not to do that for the game against Notre Dame this past season...but he did it the year before. The ND players remembered and they beat his ass to a pulp for it. Then there's the NIL drama of college football. He followed his college coach (Lincoln Riley) from Oklahoma to USC but didn't make it official unless he was guaranteed several millions in NIL money. Why does this matter? Well, he already created some drama by saying that he wouldn't sign with a team without getting a share of ownership without understanding that is against the CBA rules. All of this adds up to a drama queen who is going to hold out if the organization doesn't kiss his ass and I don't know about you but the Bears don't need that kind of drama.
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This isn't great - No offense

The Alt thing at the end is a terrible capper
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RichH55 wrote: Tue Mar 19, 2024 10:00 pm This isn't great - No offense

The Alt thing at the end is a terrible capper
What I said? If so, tell me this....

Would you rather have a QB like Caleb Williams, who won the Heisman and balled out (without pads on) at his Pro Day yesterday...but he has a crappy OLine?

Or,

Would you rather have a lesser QB who has a dominant OLine?


I've made my case several times now in this thread going back years. What did Darnell Mooney get the Bears? He was supposed to have all world speed that could take the top off a defense. The point I made was I don't care how fast he runs, it wouldn't matter with a crappy OLine. Turns out that I was right, especially with Mooney signing in Atlanta this offseason but the point is still valid. I don't care who your skill guys are if your OLine sucks.

So what's the solution? Oh, the Bears just need a QB and all the problems will be fixed? I'm sure Poles doesn't want to admit that he didn't draft the perfect LT. Who would? Joe Alt could anchor 10+ years at the most important non-QB position in all of football. Instead, Poles is going to draft Caleb Williams and Joe Alt will go to another team. Then 4 or 5 years from now, when all of us sitting around with another 4 or 5 straight years filled with 0-2 seasons against the motherf*cking Packers (and the Bears have a completely different head coach), and then I reply AGAIN in this very thread....I will remind everyone how Caleb Williams was a bust and Joe Alt developed into a Consensus All-Pro.

I will have zero problem coming here and eat a plate full of crow, and then admit that I was wrong about Williams if the opposite is true, but like I said....the kid has bust written all over him. We've seen this story before with other teams (and sometimes with the Bears)....kid balls out in college, is hyped to the extreme, shows up and has an attitude problem, holds out because both he and his agent are A-holes, signs too late to go through pre-season, then gets thrown to the wolves and has literally no clue what he's doing. Joe Alt is the son of a former NFL player, he won't do that as he understands the value is getting to practice and earning his reps.

The wrong thing to do was to announce the trade of Justin Fields before the draft. I realize that it's harder to do after the draft if the agreement falls through, but that sent Caleb Williams a message that he won't have to compete for the job as he will walk in the door the presumed starter. Put yourself in his shoes right about now. He could literally sh*t in his hand and have the Bears eat directly from it. That's fine to be confident but that doesn't translate into W's in the fall. Do any of you really think the 49ers are as good as they are because of Brock Purdy? Where was he drafted again? Purdy is competent and he can manage a game, but he's never going to be the best QB in the league...but he has a dominant OLine and a running game that allows him to do what he does. I want that. I want a QB who won't win a popularity contest but he can execute a gameplan well enough to win because...he has a dominant OLine blocking for him.

One last thing about Caleb Williams. The Super Man routine that he put on display during the 2022 season where he won the Heisman....all of that came crashing down the second he had a minor leg injury during the Pac-12 title game against Utah. He couldn't run the same, Utah's defenders knew that, and they toyed with him and embarrassed him for about 3 quarters en-route to a huge win, knocking USC out of the college football playoff. With a bad OL, expect the same when he's a Chicago Bear...so make sure those Tyson Bagent jerseys are nice and clean!
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G08 wrote: Tue Mar 19, 2024 8:50 pm Holy shit you're alive!!
I've missed you too buddy. I haven't gone anywhere, but it's difficult to be a fan of the team I fell in love with as a child as I watch them do nothing but repeat the same mistake over and over and expecting a different result.
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makaur wrote: Thu Mar 21, 2024 11:26 am
G08 wrote: Tue Mar 19, 2024 8:50 pm Holy shit you're alive!!
I've missed you too buddy. I haven't gone anywhere, but it's difficult to be a fan of the team I fell in love with as a child as I watch them do nothing but repeat the same mistake over and over and expecting a different result.
This has been my evergreen beginning-of-the-season mindset for 25 years now:

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makaur wrote: Thu Mar 21, 2024 11:26 am
G08 wrote: Tue Mar 19, 2024 8:50 pm Holy shit you're alive!!
I've missed you too buddy. I haven't gone anywhere, but it's difficult to be a fan of the team I fell in love with as a child as I watch them do nothing but repeat the same mistake over and over and expecting a different result.
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makaur wrote: Thu Mar 21, 2024 11:21 am
RichH55 wrote: Tue Mar 19, 2024 10:00 pm This isn't great - No offense

The Alt thing at the end is a terrible capper
What I said? If so, tell me this....

Would you rather have a QB like Caleb Williams, who won the Heisman and balled out (without pads on) at his Pro Day yesterday...but he has a crappy OLine?

Or,

Would you rather have a lesser QB who has a dominant OLine?


I've made my case several times now in this thread going back years. What did Darnell Mooney get the Bears? He was supposed to have all world speed that could take the top off a defense. The point I made was I don't care how fast he runs, it wouldn't matter with a crappy OLine. Turns out that I was right, especially with Mooney signing in Atlanta this offseason but the point is still valid. I don't care who your skill guys are if your OLine sucks.

So what's the solution? Oh, the Bears just need a QB and all the problems will be fixed? I'm sure Poles doesn't want to admit that he didn't draft the perfect LT. Who would? Joe Alt could anchor 10+ years at the most important non-QB position in all of football. Instead, Poles is going to draft Caleb Williams and Joe Alt will go to another team. Then 4 or 5 years from now, when all of us sitting around with another 4 or 5 straight years filled with 0-2 seasons against the motherf*cking Packers (and the Bears have a completely different head coach), and then I reply AGAIN in this very thread....I will remind everyone how Caleb Williams was a bust and Joe Alt developed into a Consensus All-Pro.

I will have zero problem coming here and eat a plate full of crow, and then admit that I was wrong about Williams if the opposite is true, but like I said....the kid has bust written all over him. We've seen this story before with other teams (and sometimes with the Bears)....kid balls out in college, is hyped to the extreme, shows up and has an attitude problem, holds out because both he and his agent are A-holes, signs too late to go through pre-season, then gets thrown to the wolves and has literally no clue what he's doing. Joe Alt is the son of a former NFL player, he won't do that as he understands the value is getting to practice and earning his reps.

The wrong thing to do was to announce the trade of Justin Fields before the draft. I realize that it's harder to do after the draft if the agreement falls through, but that sent Caleb Williams a message that he won't have to compete for the job as he will walk in the door the presumed starter. Put yourself in his shoes right about now. He could literally sh*t in his hand and have the Bears eat directly from it. That's fine to be confident but that doesn't translate into W's in the fall. Do any of you really think the 49ers are as good as they are because of Brock Purdy? Where was he drafted again? Purdy is competent and he can manage a game, but he's never going to be the best QB in the league...but he has a dominant OLine and a running game that allows him to do what he does. I want that. I want a QB who won't win a popularity contest but he can execute a gameplan well enough to win because...he has a dominant OLine blocking for him.

One last thing about Caleb Williams. The Super Man routine that he put on display during the 2022 season where he won the Heisman....all of that came crashing down the second he had a minor leg injury during the Pac-12 title game against Utah. He couldn't run the same, Utah's defenders knew that, and they toyed with him and embarrassed him for about 3 quarters en-route to a huge win, knocking USC out of the college football playoff. With a bad OL, expect the same when he's a Chicago Bear...so make sure those Tyson Bagent jerseys are nice and clean!


Oh yeah - Son of Former NFL player - automatically means he's a good guy - Maybe like he's a Soldier? Kellen Winslow's dad was good at Football too

Utah game? Where USC scored 32 and Utah basically won because they had ball last? Meh in terms of persuasive arguments - Caleb's on field production even with a lesser cast is beyond reproach (at least at the college level)

I think our Tackles are already pretty good. I'm not opposed to adding More OL (usually I am a big OL proponet) - Not at #1 of course.

We will be able to settle one part of this VERY quickly though ( the rest I cede will take time to play out) - Caleb is Not going to hold out.

I'll eat crow too if I'm wrong - (Granted I hope I won't have to - but If I'm wrong I'll stand up and admit it)


Also - Fields on the team or off the team doesn't really matter as to Caleb having to "compete" for the Job - When you pick him #1 it's his. Whether thats smart or how he takes it - Different arguments . But the job is his and Fields wasn't stopping that

Caleb is going to have a lot more talent to work with at the Pro Level - and the OL here is already good.

This isn't Fields literally downgrading talent going to the Pros (Fields WR corps from College would be arguably the best group of WR in the Pros right now - Top 5 without debate)
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makaur wrote: Sun Mar 17, 2024 4:44 pm If you don't want to go back and read all of the previous posts, the point I was making was that Pace moved up and wasted more picks by drafting Mooney, a really fast skill guy, when the OL was a major need. They had more picks but they traded those away to move up for a player who most likely would have been there when they were next on the clock. Yes, the Bears will always need a speedy receiver but if the OL consistently looks like they're trying out to be a matador instead of a NFL offensive lineman, who cares how fast our players are? I was complaining back then.....four years ago....about how bad the OL was. Anyone who disagreed back then or now, answer me this....are you happy with the offensive output since? Are you happy with the 0-8 record against Green Bay? Are you happy about losing season after losing season? Are you happy with an offense that constantly ranks near the bottom? It's because of the offensive line. When you ignore the offensive line, you won't have an offense.
You won't get any arguments from me about the Bears awful record at constructing OLs, but I'm not convinced by this notion that Pace shouldn't have traded up in the 5th round to draft Mooney when OL was still a major need. It was Day 3, he identified a player with potential and was right about him. The odds of any Day 3 pick panning out are not high, so landing a decent one is a plus regardless of position.

The trade was picks 196, 200 and 233 in exchange for 173 and 227, so Pace gave up pick 200 to move up 23 places to select Mooney and up 6 places to 227 which he used on OG Lachavious Simmons.

Was that 200th pick going to really move the needle on the Bears OL woes?

These were the 9 O-linemen drafted between Mooney and Simmons (not including OT Arlington Hambright who the Bears took with the pick before Simmons):

R6 #180: Hakeem Adeniji
3 years with the Bengals, 39 games, 15 starts, 1008 offensive snaps
1 year with the Vikings, 4 games, 0 starts, 0 offensive snaps

R6 #181: Netane Muti
3 years with the Broncos, 20 games, 4 starts, 467 offensive snaps
1 year with the Raiders, 2 games, 0 starts, 1 offensive snap

R6 #182: Michael Onwenu
4 years with the Patriots, 64 games, 56 starts, 3471 offensive snaps

R6 #192: Jon Runyan Jr
4 years with the Packers, 67 games, 50 starts, 3192 offensive snaps

R6 #195: Justin Herron
2 years with the Patriots, 28 games, 10 starts, 745 offensive snaps
2 years with the Raiders, 7 games, 1 start, 33 offensive snaps

R6 #203: Blake Brandel
Did not play the year he was drafted.
3 years with the Vikings, 39 games, 5 starts, 503 offensive snaps

R6 #208: Jake Hanson
Did not play the year he was drafted.
2 years with the Packers, 11 games, 1 start, 75 offensive snaps
1 year with the Jets, 7 games, 4 starts, 246 offensive snaps

R6 #209: Simon Stepaniak
Did not play a regular season game.

R6 #210: Prince Tega Wanogho
1 year with the Eagles, 1 game, 0 starts, 0 offensive snaps
3 years with the Chiefs, 22 games, 0 starts, 80 offensive snaps

Out of those 9 only two, Onwenu and Runyan, would have been good picks, indeed they've proved to be excellent ones. Both have been starters and seen out their rookie contracts with the teams that drafted them. Onwenu just signed a three-year, $57m contract extension with the Patriots and Runyan's signed a three-year, $30m deal with the Giants although neither has made a Pro Bowl or been named All-Pro.

If Poles hadn't traded up from #196 though, and thus retained #200, both would have been off the board anyway, so the only argument that can be made is that he should have traded up but instead of taking Mooney he should have selected one of those two O-linemen. That both lasted to the back end of R6 shows that Pace and his team were far from alone in underrating them as prospects. Hindsight's a wonderful thing.
makaur wrote: Sun Mar 17, 2024 4:44 pm I'm tired of the Bears not having an offense....and I'm really sick and f*cking tired of losing to the Packers.
Amen to that.

Hopefully this is the year that all changes. Ryan Poles tore down the roster in 2022, started the rebuild last year and has accelerated that rebuild this offseason with the draft still to come. There are currently only 7 players left from the Pace era:
  • Herbert, Kmet, Jenkins and Borom on offense with Kmet already having earned an extension as a top 10 TE and Jenkins (when healthy) being by far the team's best offensive lineman and, yes a stud.
  • Johnson on defense who's just earned a 4-year extension as one of the top CB in the league.
  • Santos and Scales on special teams with the former having been rewarded with an extension for his consistency and the latter just re-signed for another year.
Poles spent four Day 3 picks on OL in his first draft and his first pick, 10th overall, on a RT in his second. Let's see what he does next month. Both offensive and defensive lines could use another addition.
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I think we as fans overreact to how bad we think the Bears OL is. There's a lot of bad OL play in the NFL right now.
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wab wrote: Mon Mar 25, 2024 9:49 am I think we as fans overreact to how bad we think the Bears OL is. There's a lot of bad OL play in the NFL right now.
Also, there are a lot of absolute monsters with freakish abilities playing on DLs and LBs in 3-4s out there. It's not easy being an OL.
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RichH55 wrote: Fri Mar 22, 2024 10:01 am Oh yeah - Son of Former NFL player - automatically means he's a good guy - Maybe like he's a Soldier? Kellen Winslow's dad was good at Football too
6'8" and well over 300 pounds. Started as a true freshman (6th game on) after playing mostly TE in high school (he was recruited as an OL).

I didn't say he'd automatically be good "just because" he's the son of a former NFL player. I'm going by what I saw of him in college, and he flat out embarrassed some of the best speed rushers in college. That doesn't mean he's going to be good either but he's going to be a first round pick (top 10) so I'm not the only one who thinks he's going to be good.

The "son of a former NFL player" part comes from him growing up learning how to play the position from someone who did. Most guys go through college not having that luxury. It has nothing to do with his DNA...it's hearing the message over and over, then going through a college weight program and coaching, then seeing him dominate from the time he was a true freshman through his Junior season. Trust me, that translates to the NFL.

Caleb Williams came from Lincoln Riley's system. Name one QB who came from that and has dominated in the NFL? I'll wait. Baker Mayfield is "starting to get it" but that took, what, 6 full seasons before the light bulb came on? We don't have 6 seasons to wait for Caleb Williams to "get it." I'd feel different if Williams was 6'3" or 6'4" but he's only 6'1." Why does that matter? Several reasons, too many to cover so I'll leave it as he's a Lincoln Riley system guy and those skills (reads, etc.) don't translate to the NFL.

Oh, and comparing him to Kellen Winslow....do better. Kellen Winslow came from "The U" and had a terrible attitude from day 1. Joe Alt has none of that.

RichH55 wrote: Fri Mar 22, 2024 10:01 am Utah game? Where USC scored 32 and Utah basically won because they had ball last? Meh in terms of persuasive arguments - Caleb's on field production even with a lesser cast is beyond reproach (at least at the college level)
They still lost, which was the point. Then the second time they played, Utah flat out embarrassed him before USC went to the Sugar Bowl and lost to a group of 5 program. I understand he got dinged up in that second game but that's exactly the point I'm making....basically, if he gets a boo-boo, there goes our offense whereas in comparison, if you have a dominant OLine and they can maul DLines, you don't need an all world QB. You just need a guy who can execute the offense.

RichH55 wrote: Fri Mar 22, 2024 10:01 amI think our Tackles are already pretty good. I'm not opposed to adding More OL (usually I am a big OL proponet) - Not at #1 of course.
LT is a big weak spot in my opinion and the other spots are an unknown at this point. As I've said, move Braxton Jones inside one spot over where I think he'd be far more productive, draft Joe Alt and the left side is solid. With the offseason signings, the potential of a very good OL is there....but they'd rather take Caleb Williams (telegraphed with the Fields trade) and that right there has me worried.....rookie QB with a massive question mark in regards to the OLine.

RichH55 wrote: Fri Mar 22, 2024 10:01 am We will be able to settle one part of this VERY quickly though ( the rest I cede will take time to play out) - Caleb is Not going to hold out.

I'll eat crow too if I'm wrong - (Granted I hope I won't have to - but If I'm wrong I'll stand up and admit it)
I hope you're right but the signs are all there. He already let it slip out that he wants partial ownership, which isn't allowed. I hope his agent is smart enough to explain the CBA rules to him....and before anyone else points it out, yes, the rules regarding draft pick contracts are pretty much set in stone so it's a "take it or leave it" kind of system nowadays....but....there's no guarantee that he won't pull an Eli Manning and refuse to play for the Bears, whining and crying to get the team he wants who will give him more in terms of endorsements, which is one of the (many) reasons why I think Caleb Williams is going to fail at this level (b/c his head is more in his wallet than it is in the game).

RichH55 wrote: Fri Mar 22, 2024 10:01 am Also - Fields on the team or off the team doesn't really matter as to Caleb having to "compete" for the Job - When you pick him #1 it's his. Whether thats smart or how he takes it - Different arguments . But the job is his and Fields wasn't stopping that
I get what you're saying but there's no way the two of them would have been on the same team. Had Fields not been traded, that would have been clue #1 that they're either not taking a QB at #1, or they're trading back. As we all know, Fields is gone so it's Caleb Williams at #1. I wouldn't be surprised if they announce that he's agreed to a deal right after he's drafted and that they were negotiating the terms since the Fields trade (and good if that happens because that would eliminate my fear that he would hold out).

RichH55 wrote: Fri Mar 22, 2024 10:01 am Caleb is going to have a lot more talent to work with at the Pro Level - and the OL here is already good.

This isn't Fields literally downgrading talent going to the Pros (Fields WR corps from College would be arguably the best group of WR in the Pros right now - Top 5 without debate)
...but can he execute the offense? There's no question he's got better talent (debatable at WR) but you have to have the ability to process defensive formations, pre-snap reads, audibles, etc. Lincoln Riley's system rarely does that. That system is designed to get a playmaker in space and for the QB to quickly get the ball out without improvising, but it's also very run heavy. If the run isn't working, that's where his QB's always tend to struggle. Take the Notre Dame game from last October. Notre Dame absolutely shut down USC's run game and it put Caleb Williams on an island at times, forcing him into 3 first half interceptions that effectively put the game out of reach. When USC basically abandoned the run, ND's front 7 licked their chops and abused Caleb Williams time after time throughout that game. I lost count how many times a LB blitzed and delivered a huge shot on him.

That's the problem with the focus on drafting a super star QB. If your OLine can't protect him, either in the pass game or opening holes in the run game, then it doesn't matter how great he was in college and take it from me, as someone who followed him from his freshman year at Oklahoma to his two seasons at USC....I didn't see much of a "super star" outside of 2-3 games his sophomore year. He never defeated a top ten defense or even a highly ranked team. Every time his team faced a well coached opposing team, they lost. You can blame USC's defense and there would be truth to that but when adversity hits, you look to your leaders to make plays and Caleb Williams quite often failed in that regard.
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wab wrote: Mon Mar 25, 2024 9:49 am I think we as fans overreact to how bad we think the Bears OL is. There's a lot of bad OL play in the NFL right now.
Agree....but the Bears have been the worst over the past 10-15 years. I mostly blame the GM's but the coaching hasn't been very good either.
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