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HisRoyalSweetness wrote: Wed Apr 03, 2024 11:18 am
Arkansasbear wrote: Wed Apr 03, 2024 10:22 am Dylan Laube...

I knew worthy was a smaller guy, but name I just don't see how he can play in the NFL at his weight.

"Key measurements: Height (5-foot-11); Weight (26 pounds); Arms (31 1/8 inches); Hands (8 3/4 inches); 40-Yard Dash (4.21 seconds, a new NFL Combine record)"
Yeah 26 pounds is really, really small. ;)
It would be too windy in Chicago for him. It might blow him over :D
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Arkansasbear wrote: Wed Apr 03, 2024 12:36 pm
Moriarty wrote: Wed Apr 03, 2024 12:15 pm

With the Bears or with Wash, Sweat has been between 64-70% of the snaps in all 5 of his years in the league.
https://www.pro-football-reference.com/ ... eaMo00.htm

Looking at the O or D as a whole, instead of by position, is a fair argument. Although I would counterargue that the biggest problem on offense was the QB, followed by IOL. So targeting other offensive stuff isn't really getting at the core problems, either.

And comparing to last year:
TE is the same or better off already (Everett for Tonyan, Lewis)
WR is much better off (Allen for Mooney)
OT is the same, maybe a little better, if Wright makes progress off his rookie year

DE - as much as I wasn't a big fan of Ngokoue or Green - is worse off. (Jacob Martin for Ngokue & Green is a clear loss)
And if you look at DL as a whole, then you also subtract Jones and add nothing (except for possible progress from the 2 rookies), which is also a clear loss
I agree about the DE spot. I’m all for bringing Ngakoue back. He clearly isn’t “the guy” who makes it happen but his numbers once Sweat arrived were decent. I’m not paying him $15M but surely that won’t be his market after last year.
I want him to sign elsewhere for like a 1 year 5 million dollar deal (And SOON! Needs to be before the End of the Draft)

That would net us a 4th Round Comp Pick if so.
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RichH55 wrote: Wed Apr 03, 2024 2:56 pm
Arkansasbear wrote: Wed Apr 03, 2024 12:36 pm
I agree about the DE spot. I’m all for bringing Ngakoue back. He clearly isn’t “the guy” who makes it happen but his numbers once Sweat arrived were decent. I’m not paying him $15M but surely that won’t be his market after last year.
I want him to sign elsewhere for like a 1 year 5 million dollar deal (And SOON! Needs to be before the End of the Draft)

That would net us a 4th Round Comp Pick if so.
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RichH55 wrote: Wed Apr 03, 2024 2:56 pm
Arkansasbear wrote: Wed Apr 03, 2024 12:36 pm
I agree about the DE spot. I’m all for bringing Ngakoue back. He clearly isn’t “the guy” who makes it happen but his numbers once Sweat arrived were decent. I’m not paying him $15M but surely that won’t be his market after last year.
I want him to sign elsewhere for like a 1 year 5 million dollar deal (And SOON! Needs to be before the End of the Draft)

That would net us a 4th Round Comp Pick if so.
You win!!! Better plan.
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HisRoyalSweetness wrote: Wed Apr 03, 2024 11:18 am
Arkansasbear wrote: Wed Apr 03, 2024 10:22 am Dylan Laube...

I knew worthy was a smaller guy, but name I just don't see how he can play in the NFL at his weight.

"Key measurements: Height (5-foot-11); Weight (26 pounds); Arms (31 1/8 inches); Hands (8 3/4 inches); 40-Yard Dash (4.21 seconds, a new NFL Combine record)"
Yeah 26 pounds is really, really small. ;)
He's know for his snake like ability to slither through the narrowest of holes. Can't offer much as a receiver as the ball tends to hit the ground but he can be an effective pass blocker by coiling around the rushers legs in python fashion tripping him up. Would need to give him numeral one though due to how narrow he jersey would be.
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HurricaneBear wrote: Wed Apr 03, 2024 11:15 am
Moriarty wrote: Wed Apr 03, 2024 11:04 am


I agree TE, T, WR are all definitely or arguably luxury picks

I disagree on DE, though.
Walker is really only half a DE. And DE rotates more than any other position. If you figure Sweat for 67% of snaps at DE and Walker for 33%, you've still got 100% left and even drafting another for 67% more of snaps still doesn't even fill up your 2x100%.

If you're going by immediate need, DE wins over all other positions (assuming QB at 1) no contest, IMO. (And DT being pretty meh and not a likely high draft target only adds to the need for strength at DE)
In order to go with something else, you've got to be thinking longer term (like "I'm definitely not expecting Allen back") or feel pretty strongly you're getting a much better quality of player than you can get at DE.
Even in a system that rotates like Flus, Sweat should be closer to 80% of the snaps. We aren't paying him to be a rotational piece, we are paying him to be a corner stone.

If you dont draft a guy at 9, two guys that were part of the line playing so well last year are still out there at DE. And again, drafting a DE adds to the side of the ball that actually played at a high level. The offense is only stacked right now on paper. The D has actually shown it. We don't need another piece on D to be a top unit. But of course it would be a nice to have piece.

I think we have an incredible amount of flexibility this year with no needs that have to be filled in the draft alone.(Outside QB which is a done deal)

We may have to agree to disagree on this one.
The DL lost 3 core contributors though, so not sure we can repeat last year without addressing that. Jones, Ngakoue, and Greene. Right now our 3rd DT is Pickens and our 3rd DE is, DomRob? That new guy we just signed? It’s not good, we are one injury from a problem at DL. A DE is far and away our biggest need IMO. And I’ll keep saying it, but I’d bring Greene back as well, solid but unspectacular rotational guy.
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New additions to the list:

- Graham Barton, OL
- Ben Sinott, TE
- Chop Robinson, Edge
- Tyler Guyton, OL (based on the report that he joined in the Caleb Williams dinner)
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Prior to FA many who analyzed the Bears needs said the Bears should sign a WR in FA and draft at least one WR. Not counting Collin Johnson we signed one WR in FA (Pettis) and traded for one (Allen). So.....does that negate the need for another and I emphasize the word need. Given the needs elsewhere like the DL is taking a WR a luxury pick?

I would think we need to have another DT and a DE. Are both Turner and Verse seen a blue chip guys so either one is good? There are a handful of DE who may be available in the 3rd and 4th round but are those guys 3 down impact guys or just a spot backup type guy who can play some snaps in a rotation? How many FA DL are still out there who may fit?
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The past 2 years people have said we need to draft this position! There's a hole on the roster. Poles let the draft play out not selecting OL high his first year and dline his second. He then signed a high priced, 1 year vet around camp both years for those spots.

Poles can and will have 0 issues not selecting whichever position we decide he HAS to draft this year.

There are 3 positions we know are legit choices because Poles told us they are: OT, WR and DE. All positions you should draft in the 1st if you can. All positions that we are talking about a 3rd player for. Poles has set us up well. It's like we have a GM who actually knows how to GM and he he has had luck break his way.

Whoever he chooses I'll be happy(unless it's a running back then I'm starting a fire Poles thread).
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HurricaneBear wrote: Thu Apr 04, 2024 6:16 am The past 2 years people have said we need to draft this position! There's a hole on the roster. Poles let the draft play out not selecting OL high his first year and dline his second. He then signed a high priced, 1 year vet around camp both years for those spots.

Poles can and will have 0 issues not selecting whichever position we decide he HAS to draft this year.

There are 3 positions we know are legit choices because Poles told us they are: OT, WR and DE. All positions you should draft in the 1st if you can. All positions that we are talking about a 3rd player for. Poles has set us up well. It's like we have a GM who actually knows how to GM and he he has had luck break his way.

Whoever he chooses I'll be happy(unless it's a running back then I'm starting a fire Poles thread).
Did he say OT or OL?
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Yogi da Bear wrote: Thu Apr 04, 2024 8:02 am
HurricaneBear wrote: Thu Apr 04, 2024 6:16 am The past 2 years people have said we need to draft this position! There's a hole on the roster. Poles let the draft play out not selecting OL high his first year and dline his second. He then signed a high priced, 1 year vet around camp both years for those spots.

Poles can and will have 0 issues not selecting whichever position we decide he HAS to draft this year.

There are 3 positions we know are legit choices because Poles told us they are: OT, WR and DE. All positions you should draft in the 1st if you can. All positions that we are talking about a 3rd player for. Poles has set us up well. It's like we have a GM who actually knows how to GM and he he has had luck break his way.

Whoever he chooses I'll be happy(unless it's a running back then I'm starting a fire Poles thread).
Did he say OT or OL?
From the Athletic:
So he wants the Bears to argue it. A lot. He’ll split the Bears into three teams at Halas Hall: offensive tackle, wide receiver and defensive end. Each team will argue which position is best.
“And (they’ll) use factual information to kind of spit that out,” Poles said last week at the NFL owners’ meetings in Orlando, Fla. “We’ll have a debate in terms of what’s more impactful for our football team, short term and long term. I’m looking forward to that.”
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dave99 wrote: Thu Apr 04, 2024 8:36 am
Yogi da Bear wrote: Thu Apr 04, 2024 8:02 am

Did he say OT or OL?
From the Athletic:
So he wants the Bears to argue it. A lot. He’ll split the Bears into three teams at Halas Hall: offensive tackle, wide receiver and defensive end. Each team will argue which position is best.
“And (they’ll) use factual information to kind of spit that out,” Poles said last week at the NFL owners’ meetings in Orlando, Fla. “We’ll have a debate in terms of what’s more impactful for our football team, short term and long term. I’m looking forward to that.”
The Athletic doesn't have him quoted correctly. He never said "offensive tackle" he just said "tackle" Everyone can assume he was referring to OT, but it could be DT. I didn't think that is likely since I don't see a DT "worth" the 9th pick. But perhaps that team is operating via a trade down.
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Arkansasbear wrote: Thu Apr 04, 2024 12:07 pm
dave99 wrote: Thu Apr 04, 2024 8:36 am

From the Athletic:
The Athletic doesn't have him quoted correctly. He never said "offensive tackle" he just said "tackle" Everyone can assume he was referring to OT, but it could be DT. I didn't think that is likely since I don't see a DT "worth" the 9th pick. But perhaps that team is operating via a trade down.
I assumed OT but you are absolutely right. Offensive or defensive tackle, either one is a position that can benefit you cap wise by drafting a player in the first. So my point is still valid.
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Arkansasbear wrote: Thu Apr 04, 2024 12:07 pm
dave99 wrote: Thu Apr 04, 2024 8:36 am

From the Athletic:
The Athletic doesn't have him quoted correctly. He never said "offensive tackle" he just said "tackle" Everyone can assume he was referring to OT, but it could be DT. I didn't think that is likely since I don't see a DT "worth" the 9th pick. But perhaps that team is operating via a trade down.
Thanks. I wonder if this mean that the OT argued for will have to take over that position for the Bears or whether he could be moved inside? I also don't see him going DT.
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Since they're debating the 9th pick and no DT ranks anywhere near that high I believe we can assume he means an OT.
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Bearfacts wrote: Thu Apr 04, 2024 9:35 pm Since they're debating the 9th pick and no DT ranks anywhere near that high I believe we can assume he means an OT.
"It's important that we get that piece because you have to have the 1-2 punch. It can be inside as well. You look at who affects the quarterback the most, I would also argue that the inside piece is also something that we should be looking at, and it's important that we do that. Direct line to the quarterback. When they max protect, it's a soft spot in the protection. We're looking at all pass rushers. It can be inside, outside, all along the line. We're having an open mind in that regard."

- Matt Eberflus at the NFL owners meeting
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HisRoyalSweetness wrote: Thu Apr 04, 2024 10:17 pm
Bearfacts wrote: Thu Apr 04, 2024 9:35 pm Since they're debating the 9th pick and no DT ranks anywhere near that high I believe we can assume he means an OT.
"It's important that we get that piece because you have to have the 1-2 punch. It can be inside as well. You look at who affects the quarterback the most, I would also argue that the inside piece is also something that we should be looking at, and it's important that we do that. Direct line to the quarterback. When they max protect, it's a soft spot in the protection. We're looking at all pass rushers. It can be inside, outside, all along the line. We're having an open mind in that regard."

- Matt Eberflus at the NFL owners meeting
You're missing my point. Regardless of what Flus is quoted as saying IF they are debating what to do at #9 they would very likely be debating an OT vs a DE or WR because none of the DT are ranked that high. That's not to say they are not interested in drafting a DT but if the highest ranked DT at #15 or #16 why would they draft him at #9 instead of trading down? That's all I'm saying.
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Bearfacts wrote: Fri Apr 05, 2024 1:09 am
HisRoyalSweetness wrote: Thu Apr 04, 2024 10:17 pm

You're missing my point. Regardless of what Flus is quoted as saying IF they are debating what to do at #9 they would very likely be debating an OT vs a DE or WR because none of the DT are ranked that high. That's not to say they are not interested in drafting a DT but if the highest ranked DT at #15 or #16 why would they draft him at #9 instead of trading down? That's all I'm saying.
I don't think they are going DT at 9, but NFL GM rankings aren't the same as media rankings. Often very similar, but every year the media has some guys way too high or too low. A DT at 9 could absolutely happen(I just don't think it will)
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HurricaneBear wrote: Fri Apr 05, 2024 6:10 am
Bearfacts wrote: Fri Apr 05, 2024 1:09 am

You're missing my point. Regardless of what Flus is quoted as saying IF they are debating what to do at #9 they would very likely be debating an OT vs a DE or WR because none of the DT are ranked that high. That's not to say they are not interested in drafting a DT but if the highest ranked DT at #15 or #16 why would they draft him at #9 instead of trading down? That's all I'm saying.
I don't think they are going DT at 9, but NFL GM rankings aren't the same as media rankings. Often very similar, but every year the media has some guys way too high or too low. A DT at 9 could absolutely happen(I just don't think it will)
The Athletics Dane Brugler is about as good as it gets with his "The Beast" draft guide. I'm pulling from his Top 100 rankings for 2024 and his highest ranked DT is Byron Murphy at #15. Another source ranks him at #17. Jer'Zahn Newton is ranked at #30 by Brugler and #23 in another ranking. There isn't a Jalen Carter in this draft and even he was drafted later than his ranking. Only those teams playing a 4-3 front tend to draft a 3 tech DT.

I'm not looking to discuss absolutes because when you start doing that anyone can claim J J McCarthy will be the first QB taken. Either of the DT could rank higher than that on Poles board but if the rest of the teams tend to have them ranked from the mid teens to the low twenties as others do he could trade down and still get a DT and in all likelihood would trade down.

I'm always gonna stick with the highest probabilities not the outliers. They may also be discussing DT but drafting either Murphy or Newton at #9 would be an outlier I do not expect to happen either when a top OT prospect will be of more interest in general than a low ranked DT or even one ranked about the same. Poles would more likely than not trade the pick with whomever wanted that OT and still get a DT in round one along with a 2nd or 3rd round pick to boot depending on how far he trades down. That's more real.
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Read that Nabers made a 30 visit, don't know when. Jha’Quan Jackson, Tulane WR is scheduled for one as is Elijah Jones, BC CB and Nathaniel Pritchett, Auburn CB are scheduled for visits.
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Grizzled wrote: Fri Apr 05, 2024 9:46 am Read that Nabers made a 30 visit, don't know when. Jha’Quan Jackson, Tulane WR is scheduled for one as is Elijah Jones, BC CB and Nathaniel Pritchett, Auburn CB are scheduled for visits.
Need a source (link) on the Nabers visit please. This is the first I've heard that so I think it unlikely.
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The Kaiser wrote: Fri Apr 05, 2024 9:53 am
Grizzled wrote: Fri Apr 05, 2024 9:46 am Read that Nabers made a 30 visit, don't know when. Jha’Quan Jackson, Tulane WR is scheduled for one as is Elijah Jones, BC CB and Nathaniel Pritchett, Auburn CB are scheduled for visits.
Need a source (link) on the Nabers visit please. This is the first I've heard that so I think it unlikely.
Odunze came in after CW.
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The Kaiser wrote: Fri Apr 05, 2024 9:53 am
Grizzled wrote: Fri Apr 05, 2024 9:46 am Read that Nabers made a 30 visit, don't know when. Jha’Quan Jackson, Tulane WR is scheduled for one as is Elijah Jones, BC CB and Nathaniel Pritchett, Auburn CB are scheduled for visits.
Need a source (link) on the Nabers visit please. This is the first I've heard that so I think it unlikely.
Several sites. There's one on Yahoo Sports reporting that David Kaplan reported the visit on his ReKap show last night.
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Several mocks now have the Bears taking Nabers instead of Odunze. Quite a few seem convinced that once Turner goes to Atl at #8 the Bears will go BPA with a WR. I have to admit that no matter how badly they might need a DE/Edge it wouldn't make sense to pass up players ranked much higher who are virtual locks to become top shelf pros.

Despite his Combine scoring Verse seems to be sliding to the mid to late teens in some mocks as CB and OT come off the board. I found Greg Gabriel's take on Verse interesting. While he believes Verse will be a good player he doesn't see him as a great pass rusher. He sees him as more of a strong side LDE than a speed guy at RDE.

More and more I believe Turner is their guy due to his upside.
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Bearfacts wrote: Fri Apr 05, 2024 1:45 pm Several mocks now have the Bears taking Nabers instead of Odunze. Quite a few seem convinced that once Turner goes to Atl at #8 the Bears will go BPA with a WR. I have to admit that no matter how badly they might need a DE/Edge it wouldn't make sense to pass up players ranked much higher who are virtual locks to become top shelf pros.

Despite his Combine scoring Verse seems to be sliding to the mid to late teens in some mocks as CB and OT come off the board. I found Greg Gabriel's take on Verse interesting. While he believes Verse will be a good player he doesn't see him as a great pass rusher. He sees him as more of a strong side LDE than a speed guy at RDE.

More and more I believe Turner is their guy due to his upside.
We need a DE next year more than a WR, but I'm starting to get to the point that if Nabers is there take him. We can only sink so much money into the WR room. Allen will be key to letting CW have a successful first year in the the NFL. If he helps him grow in that regard, one year of him might be worth the 4th round pick we gave for him. I'd rather see we lock up DJ for longer before we invest in Allen. He will be 32 this and I don't like the idea of paying $23M/season to a 33 and 34 year old WR. I'm starting to think that's what he's expecting. In which case let him walk and be mindful of the comp equation (which Poles will). That would mean for our 4th round pick we get a great WR to help CW get ready in the NFL and then turn it into a 3rd round pick. Win-Win.
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I think if Poles doesn’t draft a premier WR he will offer Allen an attractive extension.
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Arkansasbear wrote: Fri Apr 05, 2024 3:51 pm
Bearfacts wrote: Fri Apr 05, 2024 1:45 pm Several mocks now have the Bears taking Nabers instead of Odunze. Quite a few seem convinced that once Turner goes to Atl at #8 the Bears will go BPA with a WR. I have to admit that no matter how badly they might need a DE/Edge it wouldn't make sense to pass up players ranked much higher who are virtual locks to become top shelf pros.

Despite his Combine scoring Verse seems to be sliding to the mid to late teens in some mocks as CB and OT come off the board. I found Greg Gabriel's take on Verse interesting. While he believes Verse will be a good player he doesn't see him as a great pass rusher. He sees him as more of a strong side LDE than a speed guy at RDE.

More and more I believe Turner is their guy due to his upside.
We need a DE next year more than a WR, but I'm starting to get to the point that if Nabers is there take him. We can only sink so much money into the WR room. Allen will be key to letting CW have a successful first year in the the NFL. If he helps him grow in that regard, one year of him might be worth the 4th round pick we gave for him. I'd rather see we lock up DJ for longer before we invest in Allen. He will be 32 this and I don't like the idea of paying $23M/season to a 33 and 34 year old WR. I'm starting to think that's what he's expecting. In which case let him walk and be mindful of the comp equation (which Poles will). That would mean for our 4th round pick we get a great WR to help CW get ready in the NFL and then turn it into a 3rd round pick. Win-Win.
Any WR at #9 would be a forward looking pick. At roughly $16 mil in 2024 and 2025 Moore is relatively cheap. It's what helped make Allen affordable this year and next if they offer him an extension. But in 2026 Moore will be working on a new deal paying him top money so it would be helpful to have a top shelf rookie still on his rookie deal for another two years.

The question being asked by all of us is how do they value the various DE and DT versus a top three WR who may fall to #9? I believe Turner is a guy they'd like to draft if he's there. If not how do they see Verse, Latu, and Robinson? How about Murphy and Newton? Turner seems to be the only one whose ranked to go in the top ten. How do they value the DL guys pickwise.

If Nabers is the guy still on the board with a explosive as he can be to be honest I think they have to take him. He's a point scorer.
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List up to 19 x 30 visits with 3 notable prospects likely treated as "local visits."

List now includes:

- WR Malik Nabers, LSU (Rapoport)
- DE Laiatu Latu, UCLA (Fishbain)
- WR Marvin Harrison Jr, Ohio State (Fishbain)
- WR Xavier Worthy, Texas (Fishbain)
- S Kam Kichens, Miami (Leming)
- IOL Trevor Keegan, Michigan (Leming)
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Arkansasbear wrote: Wed Apr 03, 2024 12:36 pm
Moriarty wrote: Wed Apr 03, 2024 12:15 pm

With the Bears or with Wash, Sweat has been between 64-70% of the snaps in all 5 of his years in the league.
https://www.pro-football-reference.com/ ... eaMo00.htm

Looking at the O or D as a whole, instead of by position, is a fair argument. Although I would counterargue that the biggest problem on offense was the QB, followed by IOL. So targeting other offensive stuff isn't really getting at the core problems, either.

And comparing to last year:
TE is the same or better off already (Everett for Tonyan, Lewis)
WR is much better off (Allen for Mooney)
OT is the same, maybe a little better, if Wright makes progress off his rookie year

DE - as much as I wasn't a big fan of Ngokoue or Green - is worse off. (Jacob Martin for Ngokue & Green is a clear loss)
And if you look at DL as a whole, then you also subtract Jones and add nothing (except for possible progress from the 2 rookies), which is also a clear loss
I agree about the DE spot. I’m all for bringing Ngakoue back. He clearly isn’t “the guy” who makes it happen but his numbers once Sweat arrived were decent. I’m not paying him $15M but surely that won’t be his market after last year.
Not to mention that next year is supposed to be a BANNER draft for Edge guys. Poles may decide to roll with what we have for now and pick a stud DE next year.
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IotaNet wrote: Sun Apr 07, 2024 5:54 pm
Arkansasbear wrote: Wed Apr 03, 2024 12:36 pm
I agree about the DE spot. I’m all for bringing Ngakoue back. He clearly isn’t “the guy” who makes it happen but his numbers once Sweat arrived were decent. I’m not paying him $15M but surely that won’t be his market after last year.
Not to mention that next year is supposed to be a BANNER draft for Edge guys. Poles may decide to roll with what we have for now and pick a stud DE next year.
This is what I've suggested. Turner is the only DE/Edge worth a top ten pick. If ATL takes him and a top WR is still on the board take him. If the mocks for the first ten picks are anywhere near accurate either Turner or Odunze or Nabers should still be on the board.

There are players who rank as 3rd round picks who may not be 3 down DE but several have shown excellent pass rushing skills in college. Walker can be rotated with a pass rush specialist and even move inside on passing downs. Dexter showed better pass rush skills towards the end of last season. Work hard with him in camp to accelerate his ability to get consistent penetration and pressure.

Don't overdraft for a position of need when there are far better players still on the board.
Last edited by Bearfacts on Sun Apr 07, 2024 11:51 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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