Arkansasbear wrote: ↑Tue Apr 09, 2024 8:51 am
I go back and forth on it. If Sheldon starts he is the backup at all 3 IOL spots. Someone goes down, you plug him into that spot and everything else remains the same. I like that aspect. If Bates is your starter, Sheldon is the backup center. Bates goes down, you plug and play. The problem is Bates is likely the backup at the 2 OG spots. So if Jenkins or Davis miss time (which they both did last year and Jenkins has a history of missing games), that means sliding Bates over and then plugging in Sheldon. I don't like making 2 moves on the OL to cover one injury.
I don't like moving two guys to cover for one injury either, but at the same time you can't build your starting offense around what might happen in the event of an injury. If you think Bates is the best option at center, you play him there.
I agree that the best option has to start - kind of forgot to include that in my post. Hopefully we are in a situation similar to the "do we start Olin Kruetz or Casey Wiegman"
Arkansasbear wrote: ↑Tue Apr 09, 2024 8:51 am
I go back and forth on it. If Sheldon starts he is the backup at all 3 IOL spots. Someone goes down, you plug him into that spot and everything else remains the same. I like that aspect. If Bates is your starter, Sheldon is the backup center. Bates goes down, you plug and play. The problem is Bates is likely the backup at the 2 OG spots. So if Jenkins or Davis miss time (which they both did last year and Jenkins has a history of missing games), that means sliding Bates over and then plugging in Sheldon. I don't like making 2 moves on the OL to cover one injury.
I don't like moving two guys to cover for one injury either, but at the same time you can't build your starting offense around what might happen in the event of an injury. If you think Bates is the best option at center, you play him there.
Agreed but if they planned to start Bates at OC whose not been a full time starting OC in his entire career why sign Shelton who has been? Both Davis and Jenkins have missed a significant number of games in their careers so I'd think Bates is the guy whose role it is to prepare to be the super backup at all three IOL positions.
HurricaneBear wrote: ↑Mon Apr 08, 2024 6:18 am
Am I the only one who think Bates starts at center? I don't think Poles tried to sign him a year or two ago and then traded for him to have him be a back up.
BJones, Jenkins, Bates, Davis, Wright. I like that lineup alot and it should be better than last season. I think Davis is going to have a monster bounce back year. Death is hard and everyone handles it differently. My dad passing knocked me on my ass for about a year then motivated me to soar to heights I previously thought unattainable. I choose to live a reality where Davis has a similar bounce back.
I like Carter as a backup. He is young and I'd give him this season to continue developing. I've personally seen enough of Borom and am ready to move on. Pryor and Shelton I don't really know but from what people here say they sound like solid back ups.
I'd still draft a OLineman if possible with one of our non first rounders.
I go back and forth on it. If Sheldon starts he is the backup at all 3 IOL spots. Someone goes down, you plug him into that spot and everything else remains the same. I like that aspect. If Bates is your starter, Sheldon is the backup center. Bates goes down, you plug and play. The problem is Bates is likely the backup at the 2 OG spots. So if Jenkins or Davis miss time (which they both did last year and Jenkins has a history of missing games), that means sliding Bates over and then plugging in Sheldon. I don't like making 2 moves on the OL to cover one injury.
This is why I like Limmer in the draft. He's a real good guard as well as center.
I don't like moving two guys to cover for one injury either, but at the same time you can't build your starting offense around what might happen in the event of an injury. If you think Bates is the best option at center, you play him there.
Agreed but if they planned to start Bates at OC whose not been a full time starting OC in his entire career why sign Shelton who has been? Both Davis and Jenkins have missed a significant number of games in their careers so I'd think Bates is the guy whose role it is to prepare to be the super backup at all three IOL positions.
The Bears value a veteran center paired with a rookie QB and want 2 on the roster incase one gets hurt? Poles sees Carter as a viable back up G but didn't think he could backup C?
Isn't Shelton on a 1 year contact for like a million and a half? He may not even make it out of camp. Bates absolutely will be on the roster this year.
I think competition is always a good thing, so let them compete and the best man plays. My guess is that will be Bates, but fair play if he’s beaten out
Agreed but if they planned to start Bates at OC whose not been a full time starting OC in his entire career why sign Shelton who has been? Both Davis and Jenkins have missed a significant number of games in their careers so I'd think Bates is the guy whose role it is to prepare to be the super backup at all three IOL positions.
The Bears value a veteran center paired with a rookie QB and want 2 on the roster incase one gets hurt? Poles sees Carter as a viable back up G but didn't think he could backup C?
Isn't Shelton on a 1 year contact for like a million and a half? He may not even make it out of camp. Bates absolutely will be on the roster this year.
Well yeah, Poles didn't trade a 5th round pick for Bates if we didn't have a plan for him. He's on the books for just over $4 mil whereas Shelton is on the books for $3 mil. Neither are getting front line starters paychecks and if it's Bates whose overwhelmingly the better OC then he should start. I'm just going by what each has done so far in their careers and it's Shelton whose the OC.
My only point and that of others is Bates is more prepared to be the super-sub he's been for most of his career and is the true plug and play guy at any IOL position if a starter goes down. I also have a different view of Carter than you do. I don't believe he is seen as viable starter should Davis or Jenkins get injured which is why Poles traded for Bates a guy he's been wanting all along.
I don't really care how it breaks out other than knowing the objective is to start your five best players. If Bates starts at OC with Shelton as his backup that's fine with me if it's fine with them. I just hate to see two players change if one of the OG are hurt. But maybe you're correct and they feel Carter is their number one backup at OG and he comes in while Bates stays at OC.
I believe I'm with @HurricaneBear . We all read too much into Shelton having been a center and not enough into what they are paying and gave up to acquire each player. I think it will be less of a competition than we're discussing. Unless Bates devolves into a case of the Cody Whitehair yippers, he's going to be over the ball when the season's underway. What makes me feel good is the depth at IOL and OT is way better going into camp, and who knows if it gets even better from the draft.
I don't believe we can focus too much on a pay differential that may amount to only $500k. Shelton's deal is more layered with bonus money but if he hits all of his targets he's getting $3.5 mil vs $4 mil for Bates because we had to accept his existing deal which Poles pretty much structured 2 years ago when Bates was a RFA and Buffalo matched it.
That we traded a 5th round pick for Bates doesn't necessarily mean anymore than he was brought in to be the first off the bench sub for all three OL positions or competes to start somewhere something no 5th round rookie would be capable of doing as well. Given the injury histories of our starting OG and a rookie QB more vet depth was surely needed at IOL positions.
Personally I don't care who starts at OC. We know they'll go with the best five and hopefully we'll get through camp and preseason with both OG in top health. But if not IMHO Bates will fill in at OG because that's who he's been much of his career whereas Shelton has been an OC much of his career. So I'd keep these possibilities in mind as well.
Bearfacts wrote: ↑Thu Apr 11, 2024 2:41 am
That we traded a 5th round pick for Bates doesn't necessarily mean anymore than he was brought in to be the first off the bench sub for all three OL positions or competes to start somewhere something no 5th round rookie would be capable of doing as well. Given the injury histories of our starting OG and a rookie QB more vet depth was surely needed at IOL positions.
Bearfacts wrote: ↑Thu Apr 11, 2024 2:41 am
That we traded a 5th round pick for Bates doesn't necessarily mean anymore than he was brought in to be the first off the bench sub for all three OL positions or competes to start somewhere something no 5th round rookie would be capable of doing as well. Given the injury histories of our starting OG and a rookie QB more vet depth was surely needed at IOL positions.
Bearfacts wrote: ↑Thu Apr 11, 2024 2:41 am
That we traded a 5th round pick for Bates doesn't necessarily mean anymore than he was brought in to be the first off the bench sub for all three OL positions or competes to start somewhere something no 5th round rookie would be capable of doing as well. Given the injury histories of our starting OG and a rookie QB more vet depth was surely needed at IOL positions.
"A-Hem. Say what?"
And I'll repeat. That we sent a pick to Buffalo for Bates is not a guarantee he's gonna be a starter. Where does Braxton Jones enter into it other than he had to earn his starting spot just as Bates will if he becomes a starter. As I posted before I'm fine with competition between Bates and Shelton. May the best man win. All I've ever said is Shelton has two years recent starting experience at OC whereas Bates has played more at OG. That may of may not be any indication of how they view them it's only how I view them.
crueltyabc wrote: ↑Sun Apr 07, 2024 2:54 pm
I think everyone is done with Borom but where are people on JT Carter? Is a he a worthwhile project or a target for replacement?
I think he's definitely on thin ice.
He's not beyond hope yet, but he finally got some snaps last year and wasn't that good.
Maybe he needs 1 more year and some more work, but he's also a small program 7th rounder. They rarely pan out. I'd much rather place my bets on more promising horses, if it were feasible.
The lack of mid/late picks this year may buy him that 1 more year, though.
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HisRoyalSweetness wrote: ↑Mon Apr 08, 2024 8:29 am
Experience-wise these guys are pretty similar to Lucas Patrick before he was signed by the Bears for a similar amount. We're all relieved to see others being brought in to replace him and Whitehair, but any assumption that this means an automatic upgrade is misplaced in my opinion. Until we see them play we just don't know. These are not obviously higher-end guys and for that reason a Center remains a draft priority as far as I'm concerned.
Agreed
I've said very much the same thing elsewhere.
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dplank wrote: ↑Thu Apr 11, 2024 12:05 pm
Pretty sure he was pointing at this part of your post sir....
competes to start somewhere something no 5th round rookie would be capable of doing
Then he misread or misunderstood what I posted taking it out of context. What I said and meant was Bates is capable of competing and/or subbing at all three IOL positions. That is something a 5th round rookie would not be expected to do. Braxton Jones had just one position to learn.
dplank wrote: ↑Thu Apr 11, 2024 12:05 pm
Pretty sure he was pointing at this part of your post sir....
Then he misread or misunderstood what I posted taking it out of context. What I said and meant was Bates is capable of competing and/or subbing at all three IOL positions. That is something a 5th round rookie would not be expected to do. Braxton Jones had just one position to learn.
Lighten up. I was just teasing you, hence the at the end.
dplank wrote: ↑Thu Apr 11, 2024 12:05 pm
Pretty sure he was pointing at this part of your post sir....
Then he misread or misunderstood what I posted taking it out of context. What I said and meant was Bates is capable of competing and/or subbing at all three IOL positions. That is something a 5th round rookie would not be expected to do. Braxton Jones had just one position to learn.
I don't even think this is true. Quite the contrary actually. It's often that you see a guy who played T in college get kicked inside as a rookie and be asked to play multiple spots. These guys are usually backups who are developing but earned a roster spot, and therefore need to have position flexibility in order to have a job. And those guys are very often later round picks.
C would be the only position that would be an exception, so if that's the main focus of your point then ok. C is just hard for a rookie on it's own.
crueltyabc wrote: ↑Sun Apr 07, 2024 2:54 pm
I think everyone is done with Borom but where are people on JT Carter? Is a he a worthwhile project or a target for replacement?
I think he's definitely on thin ice.
He's not beyond hope yet, but he finally got some snaps last year and wasn't that good.
Maybe he needs 1 more year and some more work, but he's also a small program 7th rounder. They rarely pan out. I'd much rather place my bets on more promising horses, if it were feasible.
The lack of mid/late picks this year may buy him that 1 more year, though.
He's definitely still a project. It wasn't that long ago he was a 6'5 270lb basketball player doubling as a left tackle.
Then he misread or misunderstood what I posted taking it out of context. What I said and meant was Bates is capable of competing and/or subbing at all three IOL positions. That is something a 5th round rookie would not be expected to do. Braxton Jones had just one position to learn.
I don't even think this is true. Quite the contrary actually. It's often that you see a guy who played T in college get kicked inside as a rookie and be asked to play multiple spots. These guys are usually backups who are developing but earned a roster spot, and therefore need to have position flexibility in order to have a job. And those guys are very often later round picks.
C would be the only position that would be an exception, so if that's the main focus of your point then ok. C is just hard for a rookie on it's own.
Although didn't Whitehair come in as a rookie and immediately play center, a position he'd never played before. Seems, also, that he did much better that rookie year than he did last year. Just saying....
I don't even think this is true. Quite the contrary actually. It's often that you see a guy who played T in college get kicked inside as a rookie and be asked to play multiple spots. These guys are usually backups who are developing but earned a roster spot, and therefore need to have position flexibility in order to have a job. And those guys are very often later round picks.
C would be the only position that would be an exception, so if that's the main focus of your point then ok. C is just hard for a rookie on it's own.
Although didn't Whitehair come in as a rookie and immediately play center, a position he'd never played before. Seems, also, that he did much better that rookie year than he did last year. Just saying....
He sure did. Very impressive stuff, and to Moriarty's point his decline was strange to see. He's not that old, but he fell off a damn cliff a season and a half ago.
Although didn't Whitehair come in as a rookie and immediately play center, a position he'd never played before. Seems, also, that he did much better that rookie year than he did last year. Just saying....
He sure did. Very impressive stuff, and to Moriarty's point his decline was strange to see. He's not that old, but he fell off a damn cliff a season and a half ago.
I think he played hurt a lot more than we maybe realized...
He sure did. Very impressive stuff, and to Moriarty's point his decline was strange to see. He's not that old, but he fell off a damn cliff a season and a half ago.
I think he played hurt a lot more than we maybe realized...
I do think he's never been right since the knee injury last year.
But even before that, his career was a downward diagonal from instantly stellar to very good to decent to toast.
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wab wrote: ↑Thu Apr 11, 2024 1:55 pm
I think he played hurt a lot more than we maybe realized...
I do think he's never been right since the knee injury last year.
But even before that, his career was a downward diagonal from instantly stellar to very good to decent to toast.
Yeah, I mean I just think he took his starting streak really seriously. I remember there being reports of maybe some shoulder issues that were pretty quickly dismissed...but there maybe was more to it.
Yogi da Bear wrote: ↑Thu Apr 11, 2024 1:46 pm
Although didn't Whitehair come in as a rookie and immediately play center, a position he'd never played before. Seems, also, that he did much better that rookie year than he did last year. Just saying....
Whitehair blocked well enough but not surprisingly had issues with snapping. Unfortunately that was a skill he never did master, which was why it was foolish for Poles to think he could be moved back there last season.
I don't think it was crazy for Poles to think that either Whitehair or Patrick would play at an adequate level. Maybe you could blame him for failing on the pro scouting piece of the Patrick signing but it was Getsy's guy so I can see how it happened. If i'm criticizing Poles for how he's managed the team thus far, I don't think this is at the top of my list. If C is a problem in 2024 I'm gonna be pissed but right now I get it
If they're gonna draft someone in the first round as a LT — assuming Alt is off the board — I'd bet their target is Fautanu. I admit I like Fautanu's projection better as a guard than as a tackle, but they're going to love his nasty demeanor and his ability to climb to the second level.
Then he misread or misunderstood what I posted taking it out of context. What I said and meant was Bates is capable of competing and/or subbing at all three IOL positions. That is something a 5th round rookie would not be expected to do. Braxton Jones had just one position to learn.
I don't even think this is true. Quite the contrary actually. It's often that you see a guy who played T in college get kicked inside as a rookie and be asked to play multiple spots. These guys are usually backups who are developing but earned a roster spot, and therefore need to have position flexibility in order to have a job. And those guys are very often later round picks.
C would be the only position that would be an exception, so if that's the main focus of your point then ok. C is just hard for a rookie on it's own.
The main point was that Bates has the previous NFL experience to handle ALL THREE IOL POSITIONS either as a starter or a primary backup. A rookie 5th round pick would not be able to handle that specific task anywhere near as well day one. And while I agree that a rookie might over time be asked to learn multiple positions initially they will more typically play at one OG spot or the other especially if they have no previous experience at that position like your example of a college OT being kicked inside to OG but seldom OC.
We can debate exceptions to the rule until the sun goes super nova and burns earth to a crisp but it won't change the meaning of what I was trying to point out. That was assuming Bates will start at OC only because he's paid $500k more or because we gave up a 5th round pick for him is IMHO faulty logic especially when Shelton is the more experienced OC. I do however expect both to be in the mix to start at OC if only because they want the five best OL playing. If Bates wins the battle he'll start at OC. It's no more complex that that.
Then he misread or misunderstood what I posted taking it out of context. What I said and meant was Bates is capable of competing and/or subbing at all three IOL positions. That is something a 5th round rookie would not be expected to do. Braxton Jones had just one position to learn.
Lighten up. I was just teasing you, hence the at the end.
I'm not upset Yogi. Plank made what may have been an incorrect assumption that I answered as best I could. He may have missed the wink, I didn't. I got it. I'm way too old now to get myself all worked up over our discussions and debates. I'm at the age where I'm trying to avoid heart attacks not induce them. LOL
Hopefully we are in a situation similar to the "do we start Olin Kruetz or Casey Wiegman"
