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dave99 wrote: Mon Jul 08, 2024 10:24 am Patrick Willis was pretty good. He made the 2010 all decade team.

I always thought Urlacher was the best safety to ever play MLB.
He may have been the best cover LB in NFL history and his speed and athleticism made him a force sideline to sideline.
But for a guy his size he was not great at defeating blockers and even on his best day he was not the intimidator that Ray Lewis was, never mind Butkus.
Go find the clip of 6' Singletary standing up the 6'3'' Eric Dickerson on 3rd and 1 in the 85 playoff game.
That, there, is a MLB.
Agreed on Urlacher. Saw him in-person at TC many years ago. A man that big moving that fast was overwhelming.

Also agree with RichH55 on Wagner. 9 Pro-Bowl selections, 6 First Team AP All-Pro and he's still playing at a high level after 12 years (Pro-Bowl selection last season). He's started nearly every game in his career, missing about 8 games total. He came in second for 2012 DRoY to Luke Kuechly. Kuechly had his career shortened not because of bad knees like Butkus but due to concussions. Don't know if Luke makes the HoF but Wagner should.
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dplank wrote: Mon Jul 08, 2024 7:19 amLuke Kuechly
Kuechly was some player although of course he jacked it in after only 8 seasons.

According to Pro Football Reference, Kuechly played all but his last season at MLB. Urlacher is listed as having played his whole career there although he started out at SLB in his rookie year before making the switch. I can't recall how many games he actually played at SLB.

Lewis on the other hand apparently played only 6 of his 17 seasons at MLB although he also has one season listed as MLB/RILB. It makes a comparison much harder, as there is obviously a difference between playing MLB in a 4-3 versus one of two ILBs in a 3-4.

On a per game basis:

Combined Tackles
Kuechly: 9.25
Lewis: 9.03
Urlacher: 7.48

Solo Tackles
Kuechly: 5.85
Urlacher: 5.75
Lewis: 6.88

TFL
Urlacher: 0.758
Kuechly: 0.636
Lewis: 0.434

Sacks
Urlacher: 0.228
Lewis: 0.182
Kuechly: 0.106

PD
Kuechly: 0.559
Lewis: 0.522
Urlacher: 0.495
(Stat not kept prior to 1999, so Lewis's figure derived from 184 of his 228 career games.)

FF
Lewis: 0.083
Urlacher: 0.060
Kuechly: 0.059

FR
Urlacher: 0.088
Lewis: 0.088
Kuechly: 0.076

INT
Kuechly: 0.153
Lewis: 0.136
Urlacher: 0.121

TO (FR & INT)
Kuechly: 0.229
Lewis: 0.224
Urlacher: 0.209

Defensive TD
Urlacher: 0.022
Kuechly: 0.017
Lewis: 0.013

So Urlacher made notably fewer tackles than the other two, but a much higher proportion of his tackles were solo and more of them were TFLs and sacks. Surprisingly he was bottom for PDs and INTs given his reputation for coverage nor was he dominant when it comes to TOs despite how much the Bears defense excelled in generating them during his time.

If Kuechly had kept playing he would probably be considered the best of the 3.
Last edited by HisRoyalSweetness on Mon Jul 08, 2024 11:04 am, edited 1 time in total.
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I know it's common, but it's impossible to compare players across eras. Butkus was a phenomenal player for his era, but he wouldn't be able to get away with a fraction of what he did in his time. Same with Singletary.

Urlacher changed the way teams looked at the MLB position.
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HisRoyalSweetness wrote: Mon Jul 08, 2024 11:01 am
dplank wrote: Mon Jul 08, 2024 7:19 amLuke Kuechly
Kuechly was some player although of course he jacked it in after only 8 seasons.

According to Pro Football Reference, Kuechly played all but his last season at MLB. Urlacher is listed as having played his whole career there although he started out at SLB in his rookie year before making the switch. I can't recall how many games he actually played at SLB.

Lewis on the other hand apparently played only 6 of his 17 seasons at MLB although he also has one season listed as MLB/RILB. It makes a comparison much harder, as there is obviously a difference between playing MLB in a 4-3 versus one of two ILBs in a 3-4.

On a per game basis:

Combined Tackles
Kuechly: 9.25
Lewis: 9.03
Urlacher: 7.48

Solo Tackles
Kuechly: 5.85
Urlacher: 5.75
Lewis: 6.88

TFL
Urlacher: 0.758
Kuechly: 0.636
Lewis: 0.434

Sacks
Urlacher: 0.228
Lewis: 0.182
Kuechly: 0.106

PD
Kuechly: 0.559
Lewis: 0.522
Urlacher: 0.495
(Stat not kept prior to 1999, so Lewis's figure derived from 184 of his 228 career games.)

FF
Lewis: 0.083
Urlacher: 0.060
Kuechly: 0.059

FR
Urlacher: 0.088
Lewis: 0.088
Kuechly: 0.076

INT
Kuechly: 0.153
Lewis: 0.136
Urlacher: 0.121

TO (FR & INT)
Kuechly: 0.229
Lewis: 0.224
Urlacher: 0.209

Defensive TD
Urlacher: 0.022
Kuechly: 0.017
Lewis: 0.013

So Urlacher made notably fewer tackles than the other two, but a much higher proportion of his tackles were solo and more of them were TFLs and sacks. Surprisingly he was bottom for PDs and INTs given his reputation for coverage nor was he dominant when it comes to TOs despite how much the Bears defense excelled in generating them during his time.

If Kuechly had kept playing he would probably be considered the best of the 3.
Yeah, Kuechly was on their level, or a shade below, completely slipped my mind. Warner and Willis aren't up there though.

I still think people sleep on Urlacher. The only know was his hands, oddly for a safety he should have picked more passes. But things like tackle numbers are irrelevant imo, we funneled to Briggs. Urlacher was doing a lot more, reading, reacting, able to cover and break forward on running plays to snuff them out.

Elevated everyone around him, even with a defensive line that wasn't amazing for many of his seasons. Tillman was a HoF player, and Brown great when he played, but most of the rest (I'm likely forgetting someone lol) were good players rather than all pros. Urlacher, and Smith, deserve a lot of credit.
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malk wrote: Tue Jul 09, 2024 7:45 pm Elevated everyone around him, even with a defensive line that wasn't amazing for many of his seasons. Tillman was a HoF player, and Brown great when he played, but most of the rest (I'm likely forgetting someone lol) were good players rather than all pros.
Well there was that chap who's going to be getting his gold jacket in a few weeks who Urlacher played his final few seasons with.

Tommie Harris was a second team All-Pro and was voted to 3 Pro Bowls during his earlier years and I seem to recall Tim Jennings being a second team All-Pro in Urlacher's last year when he led the league in INTs. Briggs was obviously an All-Pro/Pro Bowler for a lot of years.

The Bears had some pretty good defensive players in those days. :)
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HisRoyalSweetness wrote: Tue Jul 09, 2024 8:38 pm
malk wrote: Tue Jul 09, 2024 7:45 pm Elevated everyone around him, even with a defensive line that wasn't amazing for many of his seasons. Tillman was a HoF player, and Brown great when he played, but most of the rest (I'm likely forgetting someone lol) were good players rather than all pros.
Well there was that chap who's going to be getting his gold jacket in a few weeks who Urlacher played his final few seasons with.

Tommie Harris was a second team All-Pro and was voted to 3 Pro Bowls during his earlier years and I seem to recall Tim Jennings being a second team All-Pro in Urlacher's last year when he led the league in INTs. Briggs was obviously an All-Pro/Pro Bowler for a lot of years.

The Bears had some pretty good defensive players in those days. :)
I'm not saying he played with scrubs but, whilst I don't know enough about other teams to be absolutely confident of this, we didn't have that many stars to my recollection.

Looking at pass rush:

2000 Urlacher led us in his rookie year with 8
2001 Rosevelt Colvin 10.5
2002 Rosevelt Colvin 10.5
2003 Alex Brown with 5.5 (18 for the team, jfc!)
2004 Alex Brown 6.0
2005 Adewale Ogunleye 10.0
2006 Mark Anderson 12.0
2007 Adewale Ogunleye 9.0
2008 Alex Brown 8.0
2009 Adewale Ogunleye 6.5
2010 Julius Peppers/Israel Idonije 8.0 each
2011 Julius Peppers 11.0
2012 Julius Peppers 11.5

I know sack numbers aren't everything but it's pretty striking how few we got over the peak Urlacher period. After Colvin left it was a few decent seasons of Ogun and the flash in the pan from Anderson until Pep arrived.

Harris was good when healthy but missed a lot of games. Tim Jennings had the one good interception year (in Urlacher's final season) but really wasn't very good outside of that.

Briggs was great and a perfect foil for Urlacher in a defence that wanted the Will to mop up all the tackles.

I don't want to put down those teams, I loved them! I just have a sneaky suspicion that the talent level on, say those two elite seasons in 05 and 06, wasn't as high on paper as some other great defences. If so that speaks to great coaching from Smith but I then wonder how much can be credited to Urlacher making the whole thing sing in a way no one else could? For reference:

2005

LDE Adewale Ogunleye 15 games.
LDT Ian Scott 13 games
RDT Tommie Harris 16 games
RDE Alex Brown 16 games
SLB Hunter Hillenmeyer 12 games
MLB Brian Urlacher 16 games
WLB Lance Briggs 16 games
LCB Charles Tillman 15 games
SS Mike Brown 12 games
FS Chris Harris 12 games
LCB Nathan Vasher 15 games

2006

LDE Adewale Ogunleye 14
LDT Tommie Harris* 11
RDT Tank Johnson 10
RDE Alex Brown 16
LLB Hunter Hillenmeyer 13
MLB Brian Urlacher*+ 16
RLB Lance Briggs* 16
LCB Charles Tillman 25 3 14
RCB Nathan Vasher 25 2 13
SS Chris Harris 7
FS Danieal Manning 14

In my opinion you've got rankings like this (overall, not in those given years)

Urlacher, Tillman - HoF
Lance Briggs - All Pro/Pro Bowl (I kind of want to put him as a pro bowl standard player but it seems a bit harsh).
Mike Brown, Tommie Harris, maybe Nate Vasher - Pro Bowl

All the rest are quality starters except Danieal Manning. Alex Brown and Ogun very high quality starters.

I haven't checked yet but I suspect that the Ravens teams that Lewis was on had quite a bit more talent. From 1996 to 2012 they only had 6 seasons outside the top 10 for points allowed. His first three seasons, 2002 when he was injured (which obviously speaks to Lewis' importance!) and his final, season where he missed most of the regular season before coming back in the playoffs to lead them to a ring.

Anyway I'm rambling! Lewis was the key to a great defence being one of the best ever over an expended period. Urlacher made an ok defence great for a few seasons and astounding for a couple of those.
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You're reaching bud. Look up those Ravens defenses and you'll see that they weren't stacked around Lewis either. For reference, here's their defensive roster in 2000 which was a year that they won the Super Bowl and had one of the greatest defenses of all time. I'd argue Urlacher had the superior supporting cast.

LDE Rob Burnett
LDT Sam Adams
RDT Tony Siragusa
RDE Michael McCrary
LLB Peter Boulware
MLB Ray Lewis
RLB Jamie Sharper
LCB Duane Starks
RCB Chris McAlister
SS Kim Herring
FS Rod Woodson
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Wait! Who is the Unicorn?
A new Era begins in the NFC North!

Happily, it finally involves the Bears.... :toast: :headbang: :transform: :jump:
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Pardon me gentlemen but now that I’m caught up on my GOAT Minshew YouTubing, I’m switching over to The Bagency now.

How can you not love this?

Is it any wonder where Bags’ cannon arm comes from?



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So "Secret Bagent Man" it is, per the man himself.



0017 Secret Bagent. Licensed to thrill.

Mind you, I'm not sure those Welsh tattoos would help a secret agent much. They're a bit identifiable!

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HisRoyalSweetness wrote: Thu Jul 11, 2024 9:52 am So "Secret Bagent Man" it is, per the man himself.



0017 Secret Bagent. Licensed to thrill.

Mind you, I'm not sure those Welsh tattoos would help a secret agent much. They're a bit identifiable!

Image
lol 0017!!!!!!

This is exactly what I talk about when I talk about how we need to fix the boredom.

Give me a charismatic figure. Somebody fun that I can cheer for.

It’s 0017. His whole deal with the D2 QB Living The Dream, his cool dad, the fun 0017 is having. It livens things up.

This is what I need to make my fandom successful. Fun players.

I absolutely love that guy. Sign him to a ten year deal and make him the backup for his whole career.
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Admit it @The Marshall Plan, you started this YouTube channel didn't you!

https://www.youtube.com/@TysonBagentFanPage/shorts

If not then it will provide you with minutes of fun.
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HisRoyalSweetness wrote: Thu Jul 11, 2024 10:58 am Admit it @The Marshall Plan, you started this YouTube channel didn't you!

https://www.youtube.com/@TysonBagentFanPage/shorts

If not then it will provide you with minutes of fun.
You and I both know that channel is too modest for something I’d create.
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Here are several minutes of 0017 The Future GOAT making the league his bitch.

If only Velus The Pelis would’ve caught that bomb.



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The Marshall Plan wrote: Thu Jul 11, 2024 8:30 am Pardon me gentlemen but now that I’m caught up on my GOAT Minshew YouTubing, I’m switching over to The Bagency now.

How can you not love this?

Is it any wonder where Bags’ cannon arm comes from?



TMP, thanks for vids. They brought a smile to my face. Wish Tyson would not chew gum when he's on camera, not very professional looking.
You could tell Travis was toying with his opponent. Funny stuff.

Oh yeah, TB17 is not going to be a backup for ten years. He will find a spot, take over and set the football world on fire. Oh yes my friend.
San Francisco has always been my favorite booing city. I don't mean the people boo louder or longer, but there is a very special intimacy. Music, that's what it is to me. One time in Kezar Stadium they gave me a standing boo.

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spudbear wrote: Thu Jul 11, 2024 1:21 pm
The Marshall Plan wrote: Thu Jul 11, 2024 8:30 am Pardon me gentlemen but now that I’m caught up on my GOAT Minshew YouTubing, I’m switching over to The Bagency now.

How can you not love this?

Is it any wonder where Bags’ cannon arm comes from?



TMP, thanks for vids. They brought a smile to my face. Wish Tyson would not chew gum when he's on camera, not very professional looking.
You could tell Travis was toying with his opponent. Funny stuff.

Oh yeah, TB17 is not going to be a backup for ten years. He will find a spot, take over and set the football world on fire. Oh yes my friend.
I want you to be right brother. I love 0017 and I want him to succeed. I love his whole Cinderella Story and his vibe. If he leaves the Bears and goes on to a successful starting career I would be very happy.
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dplank wrote: Thu Jul 11, 2024 8:25 am You're reaching bud. Look up those Ravens defenses and you'll see that they weren't stacked around Lewis either. For reference, here's their defensive roster in 2000 which was a year that they won the Super Bowl and had one of the greatest defenses of all time. I'd argue Urlacher had the superior supporting cast.

LDE Rob Burnett 21 AV AP2
LDT Sam Adams 18 AV AP2
RDT Tony Siragusa 9 AV
RDE Michael McCrary 11 AV
LLB Peter Boulware 10 AV
MLB Ray Lewis 21 AV DPOY
RLB Jamie Sharper 11 AV
LCB Duane Starks 11 AV
RCB Chris McAlister 11 AV
SS Kim Herring 10 AV
FS Rod Woodson 17 AV AP2
You think? Burnet and Adams were good, especially that year. Boulware was a decent player until his injury, same for Sharper. Woodson HoF and still pretty good there at 35. Then Ed Reed is drafted in 2002, Terrell Suggs in 2003, Adalius Thomas kicks up a notch from 2003 when he moves to OLB.

But yeah, I was expecting the difference to be more stark.
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Make the most of Bagent this season because I doubt he's going to be in Chicago for much longer. Dude's got ambition.

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HisRoyalSweetness wrote: Mon Jul 08, 2024 11:01 am
Kuechly was some player although of course he jacked it in after only 8 seasons.

According to Pro Football Reference, Kuechly played all but his last season at MLB. Urlacher is listed as having played his whole career there although he started out at SLB in his rookie year before making the switch. I can't recall how many games he actually played at SLB.

Lewis on the other hand apparently played only 6 of his 17 seasons at MLB although he also has one season listed as MLB/RILB. It makes a comparison much harder, as there is obviously a difference between playing MLB in a 4-3 versus one of two ILBs in a 3-4.

On a per game basis:

Combined Tackles
Kuechly: 9.25
Lewis: 9.03
Urlacher: 7.48

Solo Tackles
Kuechly: 5.85
Urlacher: 5.75
Lewis: 6.88

TFL
Urlacher: 0.758
Kuechly: 0.636
Lewis: 0.434

Sacks
Urlacher: 0.228
Lewis: 0.182
Kuechly: 0.106

PD
Kuechly: 0.559
Lewis: 0.522
Urlacher: 0.495
(Stat not kept prior to 1999, so Lewis's figure derived from 184 of his 228 career games.)

FF
Lewis: 0.083
Urlacher: 0.060
Kuechly: 0.059

FR
Urlacher: 0.088
Lewis: 0.088
Kuechly: 0.076

INT
Kuechly: 0.153
Lewis: 0.136
Urlacher: 0.121

TO (FR & INT)
Kuechly: 0.229
Lewis: 0.224
Urlacher: 0.209

Defensive TD
Urlacher: 0.022
Kuechly: 0.017
Lewis: 0.013

So Urlacher made notably fewer tackles than the other two, but a much higher proportion of his tackles were solo and more of them were TFLs and sacks. Surprisingly he was bottom for PDs and INTs given his reputation for coverage nor was he dominant when it comes to TOs despite how much the Bears defense excelled in generating them during his time.

If Kuechly had kept playing he would probably be considered the best of the 3.
Just a thought on things like PDs and INTs, if Urlacher is better in coverage, his man or zone may see fewer throws. Also, he was routinely being matched up against better talent than a linebacker is often expected to defend.
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thefish7 wrote: Thu Jul 18, 2024 4:29 am
HisRoyalSweetness wrote: Mon Jul 08, 2024 11:01 am
Kuechly was some player although of course he jacked it in after only 8 seasons.

According to Pro Football Reference, Kuechly played all but his last season at MLB. Urlacher is listed as having played his whole career there although he started out at SLB in his rookie year before making the switch. I can't recall how many games he actually played at SLB.

Lewis on the other hand apparently played only 6 of his 17 seasons at MLB although he also has one season listed as MLB/RILB. It makes a comparison much harder, as there is obviously a difference between playing MLB in a 4-3 versus one of two ILBs in a 3-4.

On a per game basis:

Combined Tackles
Kuechly: 9.25
Lewis: 9.03
Urlacher: 7.48

Solo Tackles
Kuechly: 5.85
Urlacher: 5.75
Lewis: 6.88

TFL
Urlacher: 0.758
Kuechly: 0.636
Lewis: 0.434

Sacks
Urlacher: 0.228
Lewis: 0.182
Kuechly: 0.106

PD
Kuechly: 0.559
Lewis: 0.522
Urlacher: 0.495
(Stat not kept prior to 1999, so Lewis's figure derived from 184 of his 228 career games.)

FF
Lewis: 0.083
Urlacher: 0.060
Kuechly: 0.059

FR
Urlacher: 0.088
Lewis: 0.088
Kuechly: 0.076

INT
Kuechly: 0.153
Lewis: 0.136
Urlacher: 0.121

TO (FR & INT)
Kuechly: 0.229
Lewis: 0.224
Urlacher: 0.209

Defensive TD
Urlacher: 0.022
Kuechly: 0.017
Lewis: 0.013

So Urlacher made notably fewer tackles than the other two, but a much higher proportion of his tackles were solo and more of them were TFLs and sacks. Surprisingly he was bottom for PDs and INTs given his reputation for coverage nor was he dominant when it comes to TOs despite how much the Bears defense excelled in generating them during his time.

If Kuechly had kept playing he would probably be considered the best of the 3.
Just a thought on things like PDs and INTs, if Urlacher is better in coverage, his man or zone may see fewer throws. Also, he was routinely being matched up against better talent than a linebacker is often expected to defend.
Defensive stats are really tough IMO, it’s a very poor way to try and judge a defensive player. Particularly LB or DB.
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HisRoyalSweetness wrote: Wed Jul 17, 2024 8:04 pm Make the most of Bagent this season because I doubt he's going to be in Chicago for much longer. Dude's got ambition.

Thanks for the link HRS.
Getting back to my OP, one of my "benefits" of starting Bagent was to get him out in the open and show other teams that he can be an NFL QB. In October some QB-desperate team may dangle a high draft choice for Bagent. I would hate to see him go but I doubt he gets much PT unless something tragic happens with Williams.

Still wish he could have competed with a lower pick rookie for the starting job as I think he would have beat him out and ushered in the TB17 era. The young man is going to take the league on and win.
San Francisco has always been my favorite booing city. I don't mean the people boo louder or longer, but there is a very special intimacy. Music, that's what it is to me. One time in Kezar Stadium they gave me a standing boo.

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wab wrote: Mon Jul 08, 2024 11:03 am I know it's common, but it's impossible to compare players across eras. Butkus was a phenomenal player for his era, but he wouldn't be able to get away with a fraction of what he did in his time. Same with Singletary.

Urlacher changed the way teams looked at the MLB position.
Very true on both counts. The game changes about every decade enough that player to player comparisons, offense and defense, become largely meaningless. Team and individual.
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IMHO it's tough to compare Urlacher as a MLB to others who played the position in a more traditional manner. Saying he was a 6'4"/258lb Strong Safety may be a more accurate way of describing his function in Lovie's defense. An opposing OC had to game plan for him in multiple ways and in the open field few could run with him or block him. As a MLB he was an anomaly.
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thefish7 wrote: Thu Jul 18, 2024 4:29 am Just a thought on things like PDs and INTs, if Urlacher is better in coverage, his man or zone may see fewer throws.
I don't have any numbers, but I strongly suspect teams avoiding throwing at Urlacher quite a bit.
dplank wrote: Thu Jul 18, 2024 8:18 am Defensive stats are really tough IMO, it’s a very poor way to try and judge a defensive player. Particularly LB or DB.
Yes. I've said for a long time, numerically quantifying off-ball LB play is extremely difficult, at best.
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Grizzled wrote: Thu Jul 18, 2024 2:52 pm
wab wrote: Mon Jul 08, 2024 11:03 am I know it's common, but it's impossible to compare players across eras. Butkus was a phenomenal player for his era, but he wouldn't be able to get away with a fraction of what he did in his time. Same with Singletary.

Urlacher changed the way teams looked at the MLB position.
Very true on both counts. The game changes about every decade enough that player to player comparisons, offense and defense, become largely meaningless. Team and individual.
What’s up Grizz?

This gets me to thinking.

Which players, besides QBs, are timeless? They would be greats regardless of the era?

As an example, Wilbur Marshall, Butkus and Sean Taylor might not be successful in today’s game. They’d get flagged for 15 constantly.

The first player that comes to mind is Deion Sanders. Ray Lewis. LT would be successful.

I’d love to see some of the older RBs in today’s game with the emphasis on passing and how defenses focus on that.

Guys like Jim Brown, Earl Campbell, AP, and yes of course Walter Payton in today’s game where the rules favor passing so much that how would a defense handle defending a competent passing game but then stacking the box trying to stop those guys?
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dplank
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Walter was a great blocker and a great pass catcher as well. He would 100% translate to today's game - and dominate IMO. Earl Campbell would be great too, he's Derrick Henry basically who has been one of the best NFL backs the last 5 years. Jim Brown could basically walk on water so I expect he'd be great at any sport he tried in any era he tried it.
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Not that I want to open up another debate over greatest RB or football player ever, but I'd have to vote for Jim Brown. He was probably one of the greatest athletes of the last 100 years. I'm guessing he would have played lacrosse after college if a pro league had existed. From the HoF website:
Jim Brown was in a category of his own, lettering 10 times in four sports — football, lacrosse, basketball and track — at Syracuse University. Two of those sports are where he made a name for himself.

To many, Brown was a football player who did it all as a running back for the Cleveland Browns. He rushed, caught passes, returned kicks and even threw for three touchdowns in his career. Those accomplishments landed him in the Pro Football Hall of Fame in 1971.

Most forget his passion for, "the creator’s game" or "the game of medicine," lacrosse. In 1984, Brown told the New York Times, “Lacrosse is probably the best sport I ever played.”
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As in football he was a man playing against the boys.
Brown started playing at Manhasset High School in New York. A midfielder, he used his arsenal of speed, agility and toughness to earn him three All-Star honors. He went on to play at Syracuse, becoming a two-time All-American – 1956 and 1957. As a senior in 1957, he scored 64 points and was ranked second in the nation with 43 goals.

He led the Orangemen to an undefeated season with a record of 10-0. His brightest moment came in the 1957 North-South All-Star Game, when he scored five goals in the first half. Brown’s performance at Syracuse earned him a spot in the National Lacrosse Hall of Fame, as the first African American to be inducted, in 1983.
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Brown's play on the field was just a fraction of his impact on the game of lacrosse. He was the first African American superstar in the game and broke its color barrier.
He's gone on to owning a team in the Premier Lacrosse League and has been an ambassador for the game.

He probably could have been the greatest MLB to ever play if he had chosen that position.
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Walter Payton led the NFL in kickoff return yards his rookie year.
Over his career he threw 8 TD passes and caught 15 more.
He punted at least once and played emergency QB in 1984.
He accounted for 21, 803 total net yards and he ground out most of them without a pro bowl level offensive lineman.
In my opinion, he was the best all-around player that ever stepped foot onto a gridiron.
The secret is to work less as individuals and more as a team. As a coach, I play not my eleven best, but my best eleven.
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