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Heinz D. wrote: Wed Jun 26, 2024 7:16 pm
dplank wrote: Wed Jun 26, 2024 4:55 pm We beat the Broncos if Marion Barber takes a knee. Does that count?
Huh? :?
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...you could've learned how to swear in Italian and Spanish and a little Greek and Arabic in my home as the Barber did the moron dance to sidelines..
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dave99 wrote: Tue Jun 25, 2024 4:42 pm
Arkansasbear wrote: Tue Jun 25, 2024 4:24 pm

If he didn’t get cheap shotted by Green Bay we win at least 2 more. Like you he wasn’t a top QB but that team didn’t need that to win it all.
It wasn't just McMahon, although we definitely needed a quality backup. Mikey fired the GM, Jerry Vainisi, the only guy left who knew anything about football and could deal with Ditka. He let Wilbur Marshall walk in free agency and the draft talent declined for the rest of the decade.
By the time mommy fired him the team was in shambles and a laughing stock.
One other thing or maybe two was:
  • It was incredibly stupid of Ditka to insist that his CB1 (Leslie Frasier) was on the kickoff team coverage late in the blow out of the Pats in the SB. Frazer suffered a career ending injury. I say to this day that a major factor for the success of Buddy Ryan's 46 Defense was having two shutdown corners.

    Also Da Bears so over used Payton during his career that it was criminal IMO
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chiflyer wrote: Mon Jul 08, 2024 12:31 pm
dave99 wrote: Tue Jun 25, 2024 4:42 pm

It wasn't just McMahon, although we definitely needed a quality backup. Mikey fired the GM, Jerry Vainisi, the only guy left who knew anything about football and could deal with Ditka. He let Wilbur Marshall walk in free agency and the draft talent declined for the rest of the decade.
By the time mommy fired him the team was in shambles and a laughing stock.
One other thing or maybe two was:
  • It was incredibly stupid of Ditka to insist that his CB1 (Leslie Frasier) was on the kickoff team coverage late in the blow out of the Pats in the SB. Frazer suffered a career ending injury. I say to this day that a major factor for the success of Buddy Ryan's 46 Defense was having two shutdown corners.

    Also Da Bears so over used Payton during his career that it was criminal IMO
But that game was more "RB driven" back then. Great backs were simply fed the ball non-stop.
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chiflyer wrote: Mon Jul 08, 2024 12:31 pm It was incredibly stupid of Ditka to insist that his CB1 (Leslie Frasier) was on the kickoff team coverage late in the blow out of the Pats in the SB.

Was that Dikta's call? I don't recall anything about it. Do you have a link?
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1. Marion Barber put stats and money over winning the game and it cost the Bears. That almost certainly would have been a Bears W.

2. If Jim Miller doesn't get hurt, the Bears beat the Eagles in the 2001 playoffs.

3. Jerry Angelo was a C- general manager, but Lovie's staffing, drafting, and FA decisions are what truly was to blame for the team's downfall, especially during the early Cutler era.

4. The trade for Trubisky was not nearly as horrid as most Bears fans remember.

5. Not Bears-specific, but the current draft format is inferior to how it was in the 2000s. Give me morning start time covering rounds 1-4. That was the best. ALL DAY, draft mecca. Spread out over 3 days or whatever it is now is too much of a slog in my opinion.
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wab wrote: Wed Jun 26, 2024 12:04 pm Mine is also the double doink.

I also think the Bears win the Super Bowl if Cutler doesn't get hurt in the NFCC against the Packers.
The Cutler injury was going to be mine. If he doesn't get hurt, they win that game and possibly win the Super Bowl.
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UOK wrote: Mon Jul 08, 2024 1:30 pm 1. Marion Barber put stats and money over winning the game and it cost the Bears. That almost certainly would have been a Bears W.

2. If Jim Miller doesn't get hurt, the Bears beat the Eagles in the 2001 playoffs.

3. Jerry Angelo was a C- general manager, but Lovie's staffing, drafting, and FA decisions are what truly was to blame for the team's downfall, especially during the early Cutler era.

4. The trade for Trubisky was not nearly as horrid as most Bears fans remember.

5. Not Bears-specific, but the current draft format is inferior to how it was in the 2000s. Give me morning start time covering rounds 1-4. That was the best. ALL DAY, draft mecca. Spread out over 3 days or whatever it is now is too much of a slog in my opinion.
Jim Miller is a good call here. I actually had a chance to speak with him once and I asked him about that play and if he thought it was a dirty hit. He kinda rolled his eyes and smirked without answering it, I took that as a "Yes, but I don't want to say so" sort of answer.
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UOK wrote: Mon Jul 08, 2024 1:30 pm 1. Marion Barber put stats and money over winning the game and it cost the Bears. That almost certainly would have been a Bears W.

2. If Jim Miller doesn't get hurt, the Bears beat the Eagles in the 2001 playoffs.

3. Jerry Angelo was a C- general manager, but Lovie's staffing, drafting, and FA decisions are what truly was to blame for the team's downfall, especially during the early Cutler era.

4. The trade for Trubisky was not nearly as horrid as most Bears fans remember.

5. Not Bears-specific, but the current draft format is inferior to how it was in the 2000s. Give me morning start time covering rounds 1-4. That was the best. ALL DAY, draft mecca. Spread out over 3 days or whatever it is now is too much of a slog in my opinion.
I agree with all of those.
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HisRoyalSweetness wrote: Tue Jun 25, 2024 10:09 pm
dave99 wrote: Tue Jun 25, 2024 4:42 pm

It wasn't just McMahon, although we definitely needed a quality backup. Mikey fired the GM, Jerry Vainisi, the only guy left who knew anything about football and could deal with Ditka. He let Wilbur Marshall walk in free agency and the draft talent declined for the rest of the decade.
By the time mommy fired him the team was in shambles and a laughing stock.
I hated losing Marshall, however they did get two first round picks from Washington when they decided not to match their offer for Marshall. Those ended up being Wendell Davis and Trace Armstrong.

I always wonder what would have happened if the Bears hadn't selected McMahon one year before the famed 1983 QB class. The Bears got Jim Covert and Willie Gault in the first round that year but could have had Jim Kelly (although he might not have signed for them) or Dan Marino. Ultimately Jimmy Mac suited the crazy style of that 80s Bears team but what might they have accomplished with Marino under center?
Wasn't there some scuttlebutt going 'round that we actually tried to trade for Marino?

But we didn't do so badly anyway. We got a HOF LT and a very fast WR who was instrumental in getting us too the SB and winning it. You're right Mac was a great fit. Unfortunately he was also too fragile to last at the top of his game.

I'm also content with having gotten Wendell Davis and Trace Armstrong out of the Marshall deal. Armstrong was one of the better LDE we've ever had but in yet another of his bonehead moves Mikey traded him in his prime because he was the Bears NFLPA union rep. I'm not sure which has been worse. Our inability to drafts good QBs or over 40 years of McCaskey ownership. Of course maybe the latter has a whole lot to do with the former.
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Arkansasbear wrote: Wed Jun 26, 2024 4:02 pm
Arkansasbear wrote: Wed Jun 26, 2024 3:09 pm So we have:
1. The double doink,
2. Mug's death, and
3. Injuries to Jimmy Mc.

I vote yes on all three.
I forgot to list Culter being hurt. I'm on board with that one as well.

In fact, if I could pick one, it would be that one. More recent and maybe more important, it would put A-A- Ron in the the same group as Marino. All kinds of great stats and wins, but ZERO Super Bowls.
Rodgers went to a Super Bowl and won...
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Bearfacts wrote: Mon Jul 08, 2024 8:59 pm
HisRoyalSweetness wrote: Tue Jun 25, 2024 10:09 pm

I hated losing Marshall, however they did get two first round picks from Washington when they decided not to match their offer for Marshall. Those ended up being Wendell Davis and Trace Armstrong.

I always wonder what would have happened if the Bears hadn't selected McMahon one year before the famed 1983 QB class. The Bears got Jim Covert and Willie Gault in the first round that year but could have had Jim Kelly (although he might not have signed for them) or Dan Marino. Ultimately Jimmy Mac suited the crazy style of that 80s Bears team but what might they have accomplished with Marino under center?
Wasn't there some scuttlebutt going 'round that we actually tried to trade for Marino?

But we didn't do so badly anyway. We got a HOF LT and a very fast WR who was instrumental in getting us too the SB and winning it. You're right Mac was a great fit. Unfortunately he was also too fragile to last at the top of his game.

I'm also content with having gotten Wendell Davis and Trace Armstrong out of the Marshall deal. Armstrong was one of the better LDE we've ever had but in yet another of his bonehead moves Mikey traded him in his prime because he was the Bears NFLPA union rep. I'm not sure which has been worse. Our inability to drafts good QBs or over 40 years of McCaskey ownership. Of course maybe the latter has a whole lot to do with the former.
Nope. Go back and look at the highlights of 85 defense. Marshall was an absolute monster (6 sacks, 2ff and 4 interceptions) , he was built to thrive in the 46. He did just as well or better in 86 with Tobin. Davis was a so-so WR and Armstrong had an up and down career, but was never the force Marshall was.

And Finks was in charge of the historic 83 draft when Covert was the 6th pick (Dent was 203) . He left shortly afterwards. Vainisi took over for a couple of years until Mikey got rid of him, after that it was all downhill.
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Armstrong turned into a great player
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UOK wrote: Mon Jul 08, 2024 1:30 pm 1. Marion Barber put stats and money over winning the game and it cost the Bears. That almost certainly would have been a Bears W.

2. If Jim Miller doesn't get hurt, the Bears beat the Eagles in the 2001 playoffs.

3. Jerry Angelo was a C- general manager, but Lovie's staffing, drafting, and FA decisions are what truly was to blame for the team's downfall, especially during the early Cutler era.

4. The trade for Trubisky was not nearly as horrid as most Bears fans remember.

5. Not Bears-specific, but the current draft format is inferior to how it was in the 2000s. Give me morning start time covering rounds 1-4. That was the best. ALL DAY, draft mecca. Spread out over 3 days or whatever it is now is too much of a slog in my opinion.
That last point. I really miss hanging out with fellow draft nerds / Bear fans on a Saturday morning taking in the first few rounds. Good times.
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dplank wrote: Tue Jul 09, 2024 7:35 am Armstrong turned into a great player
Armstrong played from 89-03. He had 5 double digit sack seasons, 2 in Chicago. His best year was 2000 (Miami) when he made his only pro bowl.
He was often good but had plenty of games where he disappeared. He was never great.
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dave99 wrote: Tue Jul 09, 2024 8:58 am
dplank wrote: Tue Jul 09, 2024 7:35 am Armstrong turned into a great player
Armstrong played from 89-03. He had 5 double digit sack seasons, 2 in Chicago. His best year was 2000 (Miami) when he made his only pro bowl.
He was often good but had plenty of games where he disappeared. He was never great.
ok, I suppose you're right
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Noots wrote: Tue Jul 09, 2024 8:55 am
UOK wrote: Mon Jul 08, 2024 1:30 pm 1. Marion Barber put stats and money over winning the game and it cost the Bears. That almost certainly would have been a Bears W.

2. If Jim Miller doesn't get hurt, the Bears beat the Eagles in the 2001 playoffs.

3. Jerry Angelo was a C- general manager, but Lovie's staffing, drafting, and FA decisions are what truly was to blame for the team's downfall, especially during the early Cutler era.

4. The trade for Trubisky was not nearly as horrid as most Bears fans remember.

5. Not Bears-specific, but the current draft format is inferior to how it was in the 2000s. Give me morning start time covering rounds 1-4. That was the best. ALL DAY, draft mecca. Spread out over 3 days or whatever it is now is too much of a slog in my opinion.
That last point. I really miss hanging out with fellow draft nerds / Bear fans on a Saturday morning taking in the first few rounds. Good times.
Twas, twas. It was a glorious time before twitter and the NFL of today where everything needs to be in prime time, on multiple nights a week, etc. We didn't know how good we had it.
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UOK wrote: Tue Jul 09, 2024 9:18 am
Noots wrote: Tue Jul 09, 2024 8:55 am

That last point. I really miss hanging out with fellow draft nerds / Bear fans on a Saturday morning taking in the first few rounds. Good times.
Twas, twas. It was a glorious time before twitter and the NFL of today where everything needs to be in prime time, on multiple nights a week, etc. We didn't know how good we had it.
Nor did our wives
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dplank wrote: Tue Jul 09, 2024 9:19 am
UOK wrote: Tue Jul 09, 2024 9:18 am

Twas, twas. It was a glorious time before twitter and the NFL of today where everything needs to be in prime time, on multiple nights a week, etc. We didn't know how good we had it.
Nor did our wives
Football widows are a real thing these days. A coworker of mine has an understanding, I guess, with his wife in the fall: Starting on Saturday morning until Monday evening, he's watching football and she's not going to see him, and that's that, lol. Tack on TNF (and now the odd Friday game) and I have no idea how she tolerates it.

My wife puts up with Bears games and that's it. To be fair though, I don't honestly watch much sports besides the Bears. I'll occasionally watch part of another game or a college game, maybe a Cubs game or ten, but sitting around for an entire day watching football just isn't my thing anymore. It's a young man's folly to do so.
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My wife is pretty good about just sitting around and reading while I watch Bears games. I'll watch a little bit here and there on Saturdays but I just don't have the time anymore to dedicate to 36 hours of football over three or four days.

The draft though... I miss the 24 hours of chaos that was the Saturday/Sunday draft.
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Same here, with age comes wisdom I suppose lol...I'll watch every Bears game no matter what, then depending on weather or other things going on I watch the 2nd Sunday game of the week or whatever, usually while we have the kids over and we're cooking out/swimming etc (perk of south florida living, that's a year round thing). So it's not like intense viewing or anything, that's Bears only. I watch almost zero basketball, zero hockey until the playoffs.

However, my wife and I have a strong connection around the Orioles - we actually met there. My best friend was dating her best friend, and set us up to meet at Camden Yards where she was selling Craft Beers for insane tip money. So on most weeknights we are home, we have the Orioles on while we read or cook or whatever...but it's just sorta background. The only thing I'm glued to the TV for is Bears football.
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I gave up the college football game for the most a few yrs ago. I got tired of Alabama, Clemson, Georgia ruling the roost, Then NIL hit and I am just not a fan anymore.

I will miss a few Bears games due to it being nice outside and I want to enjoy as much good weather as possible.

My wife will watch the Bears games with me and she also enjoys watching KC. Not a big fan of Thursday night games, they are usually trash.

I don't watch baseball. I will watch Blackhawk games, which the wife will watch with me. I will watch some other NHL matchups as well.

Lost a lot of excitement for college bball as well. NIL and the transfer portal killed that mojo.

The wife will attend high school football games if it is not raining.
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UOK wrote: Tue Jul 09, 2024 11:01 am
dplank wrote: Tue Jul 09, 2024 9:19 am

Nor did our wives
Football widows are a real thing these days. A coworker of mine has an understanding, I guess, with his wife in the fall: Starting on Saturday morning until Monday evening, he's watching football and she's not going to see him, and that's that, lol. Tack on TNF (and now the odd Friday game) and I have no idea how she tolerates it.

My wife puts up with Bears games and that's it. To be fair though, I don't honestly watch much sports besides the Bears. I'll occasionally watch part of another game or a college game, maybe a Cubs game or ten, but sitting around for an entire day watching football just isn't my thing anymore. It's a young man's folly to do so.
I get a little bit of college football on Saturday (we either tailgate at Central Arkansas or have people over and I grill) and she's fine with that she having fun with other and if she turns her head there is a football game she doesn't care about. I get a pass on the Bears' game and she leave me alone. Non-Bears games for the NFL she starts getting a bit put off but if I just have it one while we do other things she's fine with it and I am as well - just a quick rewind/watch the reply of key plays.
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dplank wrote: Tue Jul 09, 2024 12:49 pm Same here, with age comes wisdom I suppose lol...I'll watch every Bears game no matter what, then depending on weather or other things going on I watch the 2nd Sunday game of the week or whatever, usually while we have the kids over and we're cooking out/swimming etc (perk of south florida living, that's a year round thing). So it's not like intense viewing or anything, that's Bears only. I watch almost zero basketball, zero hockey until the playoffs.

However, my wife and I have a strong connection around the Orioles - we actually met there. My best friend was dating her best friend, and set us up to meet at Camden Yards where she was selling Craft Beers for insane tip money. So on most weeknights we are home, we have the Orioles on while we read or cook or whatever...but it's just sorta background. The only thing I'm glued to the TV for is Bears football.
I will also say when it comes to the Bears' games if there is something going on, I'm will to watch it on the DVR later. Heck, I tend to prefer to not turn it on until about 30 minutes into the game and skip commercials. That does mean I don't get to join in Discord, but half the time I get pissed because someone post what happens before it comes over my broadcast.
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dave99 wrote: Tue Jul 09, 2024 6:46 am
Bearfacts wrote: Mon Jul 08, 2024 8:59 pm

Wasn't there some scuttlebutt going 'round that we actually tried to trade for Marino?

But we didn't do so badly anyway. We got a HOF LT and a very fast WR who was instrumental in getting us too the SB and winning it. You're right Mac was a great fit. Unfortunately he was also too fragile to last at the top of his game.

I'm also content with having gotten Wendell Davis and Trace Armstrong out of the Marshall deal. Armstrong was one of the better LDE we've ever had but in yet another of his bonehead moves Mikey traded him in his prime because he was the Bears NFLPA union rep. I'm not sure which has been worse. Our inability to drafts good QBs or over 40 years of McCaskey ownership. Of course maybe the latter has a whole lot to do with the former.
Nope. Go back and look at the highlights of 85 defense. Marshall was an absolute monster (6 sacks, 2ff and 4 interceptions) , he was built to thrive in the 46. He did just as well or better in 86 with Tobin. Davis was a so-so WR and Armstrong had an up and down career, but was never the force Marshall was.

And Finks was in charge of the historic 83 draft when Covert was the 6th pick (Dent was 203) . He left shortly afterwards. Vainisi took over for a couple of years until Mikey got rid of him, after that it was all downhill.
I don't disagree that Marshall was a tremendous impact player both in Chicago and Washington but I will disagree that Armstrong was anything other than a very good DE. The guy finished his career with 106 sacks 98.5 of which he had in his first 12 years in the NFL. Six in Chicago and six in Miami. He had 16.5 sacks and 7 forced fumble at age 35 his last year in Miami. Trace was a "baller".

Davis was no All Pro but he had a decent career with 3000 yards receiving. At issue here is Mikey's role as the defacto GM after he fired Vainisi. He wasn't gonna pay to keep Marshall but at least we didn't waste the picks.

As for the 83 draft and the rest I'm aware. I was right there for all of it. Finks resigned after GSH went around him when he hired Ditka.
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Bearfacts wrote: Tue Jul 09, 2024 7:24 pm
dave99 wrote: Tue Jul 09, 2024 6:46 am

Nope. Go back and look at the highlights of 85 defense. Marshall was an absolute monster (6 sacks, 2ff and 4 interceptions) , he was built to thrive in the 46. He did just as well or better in 86 with Tobin. Davis was a so-so WR and Armstrong had an up and down career, but was never the force Marshall was.

And Finks was in charge of the historic 83 draft when Covert was the 6th pick (Dent was 203) . He left shortly afterwards. Vainisi took over for a couple of years until Mikey got rid of him, after that it was all downhill.
I don't disagree that Marshall was a tremendous impact player both in Chicago and Washington but I will disagree that Armstrong was anything other than a very good DE. The guy finished his career with 106 sacks 98.5 of which he had in his first 12 years in the NFL. Six in Chicago and six in Miami. He had 16.5 sacks and 7 forced fumble at age 35 his last year in Miami. Trace was a "baller".

Davis was no All Pro but he had a decent career with 3000 yards receiving. At issue here is Mikey's role as the defacto GM after he fired Vainisi. He wasn't gonna pay to keep Marshall but at least we didn't waste the picks.

As for the 83 draft and the rest I'm aware. I was right there for all of it. Finks resigned after GSH went around him when he hired Ditka.
Look, I liked Armstrong., and yeah he had one monster pro bowl year. One and for another team. We talk a lot about Jenkins setting the tone for the OL. Well even among the guys on that 85 team, Marshall was a tone setter. They never really replaced him.
As for 83, yeah, Finks quit over Ditka, but he stayed through the 83 draft.
The brain trust consisted of George Halas and Ed McCaskey, ownership; Jim Finks, general manager; Jim Parmer and Bill Tobin, scouts; Jerry Vainisi, treasurer and in-house counsel; Bill McGrane, assistant to Finks; and Mike Ditka, coach.
https://www.chicagotribune.com/2015/04/ ... nfl-draft/

I was around then too.
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I guess what I'm trying to say is that rather than ending up with just a single compensatory pick for losing Marshall like would happen today we got two productive players from the two first round picks we received. No one wanted to see Marshall leave least of all me but such was the result of having the one guy GSH specifically asked Ginny not to put in charge of the Bears put in charge anyway.

The list of Mikey's phuc up is long and continued throughout the 90s as well. We all know this.
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Bearfacts wrote: Thu Jul 11, 2024 1:09 am I guess what I'm trying to say is that rather than ending up with just a single compensatory pick for losing Marshall like would happen today we got two productive players from the two first round picks we received. No one wanted to see Marshall leave least of all me but such was the result of having the one guy GSH specifically asked Ginny not to put in charge of the Bears put in charge anyway.

The list of Mikey's phuc up is long and continued throughout the 90s as well. We all know this.
Agreed. I will go to grave believing that 85 team, if kept together and with a little help at backup QB could have dominated the decade. Further the McCaskey family incompetence set us adrift for the best part of the next 40 years.
That was my larger point, but, it looks like they have finally figured it out.
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HisRoyalSweetness wrote: Thu Jun 27, 2024 11:08 am
Heinz D. wrote: Wed Jun 26, 2024 7:16 pm
Huh? :?
Do you not remember the game in Denver when they got "Tebow'd"?

If I recall correctly, the Bears were 10 - 7 up and at midfield at the 2 minute warning with the Broncos out of time outs. Barber then proceeded to run out of bounds on the next play instead of falling down inbounds to keep the clock running. They ran him again on 3rd down, failed to convert and punted with about a minute left instead of 20 seconds. Tebow then led the Broncos into really long FG range and, being Mile High Stadium, the kicker nailed it to tie the game and take it to overtime.

In overtime the Bears won the toss and drove into Denver territory. Again being Mile High they were already in range for a long FG but they obviously wanted to improve their chances so on 3rd down they handed off to Barber who had a decent gain but promptly fumbled. Tebow then led the Broncos to the equivalent position on the Bears side of the field to where Barber fumbled and they kicked the winning FG.

A win would have kept the Bears right in the hunt for a wild card spot, tied with the Lions who went on to earn one.

Inexplicably they didn't cut Barber there and then. I believe he played his last NFL game the following week.
I was at that game. It was horrifying walking down the concourse in Denver with the fans chanting TEBOW TEBOW!
Fantasy Team: Peanut Punchers
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