Refs already impacting games

[dplank]

Last night was horseshit. The calls on the Ravens OL I can live with if they call it both ways. They did not. Same as it ever was.

[Rusty Trombagent]

It's easy to scream conspiracy, but it'll be interesting to see if anyone backs that up. if the chiefs were breaking the same rule, it'll be pretty easy to show video evidence.

Pretty funny that everyone in the world was complaining about tackles last year, and then they make it a point of emphasis and now everyone is complaining about enforcement.

[dplank]

I saw it plainly on several occasions. The complaint isn't the enforcement of the rule, it's the enforcement of the rule for one team and not the other. Which is a thing in the NFL.

[HisRoyalSweetness]

How many illegal formation penalties did the Ravens have in the end? 5? It was ridiculous. Teams spend all offseason and training camp with NFL officials and they kept getting called for the same alignment issues? How can that occur? I certainly couldn't see any obvious differences between how the two teams were lining up.

Then there was the Chiefs' DC illegally calling a time out and not only getting it but not getting penalised. The officials should know the rules. There are no excuses.

That said, the Chiefs look ominously fast and Jackson missed opportunities at the death before the unfortunate toe out-of-bounds final play. I initially didn't think they'd be enough to overturn the on-field ruling, but then they showed the reverse angle and it was clear. It was a real shame because Harbaugh had already decided to go for two and the win rather than the PAT and overtime. That would have been an even better finish to the game.

Oh and they're still cutting to Taylor Swift more times a game then there are scoring plays. I do wish they'd give it a rest.

[Rusty Trombagent]

Then there was the Chiefs' DC illegally calling a time out and not only getting it but not getting penalised. The officials should know the rules. There are no excuses.

[dplank]

Yea, the timeout wasn't an issue. The overturned TD at the end was the correct call also. The OL thing, was absolutely unfair.

You asked if anyone would back it up Rusty, it took all of 30 seconds to find on X. Thoughts?

More from the Ravens on this:

"I thought it was a little different," Stanley said. "And then the way it was going through the game, I really feel like they were just trying to make an example and they chose me to be the one to do that. As far as I saw, they weren't doing it on both sides of the ball, and I know that I was lined up in good position the majority of those calls they made. But we'll go back and watch the film and we'll make sure of it and we'll send it in [to the league office]."

After the game, Ravens coach John Harbaugh said teams were informed that illegal formation was going to be a point of emphasis this season. But Baltimore made the point that Kansas City was not penalized once for illegal formation, while the Ravens were flagged five times.

"I'm looking at their tackles, especially the right side, and I know I'm lining up in front of that guy," Stanley said. "And they didn't call him one time. It's a little bit of making me feel like I'm crazy, [that] I don't know where I'm lining up. I feel like we'll watch the film. They just need to be held accountable if that's what it is. If it's that egregious that they are making those calls -- and they shouldn't be -- they should be held accountable."

[LacertineForest]

I agree @dplank about the consistency. I don't believe in conspiracies and all that, but I do think they need to enforce it consistently if they're going to call it that tightly.

In the second image (Ravens), not a single lineman has his hand ahead of the heel of the center. I know the calls last night were about the depth of the tackles, but I was surprised at the entire line when reviewing the images.

Edit: Just re-read the rule and it has to do with the helmet being at the waist of the center. In the images posted above, Jawaan Taylor's helmet is about in line with the waist of the center, but Ronnie Stanley's doesn't appear to be, so it looks like those calls are correct to me. That being said, they are awfully close.

[wab]

Yeah the rule has to do with where the helmet is, not the feet. Stanley leans forward an inch and he’s fine.

Still a weirdly interpreted rule though.

[dplank]

Damien Woody also agrees….as does Mike Girardi and Marcus Spears

[Otis Day]

OMG!! Well if Jackson hits the guy that was wide open in the end zone with under a minute to play, some people may not be having this discussion.

[LacertineForest]

Damien Woody also agrees….as does Mike Girardi and Marcus Spears

If it's a league favoritism argument, why were the Chiefs penalized multiple times for the exact same thing week 1 last year?

[dplank]

I don’t know the motives or even if there was intent. All I know is it wasn’t called fairly, and that seems to be supported by various players, coaches, and impartial league experts.

Diving into motives heads down a path of futility and ultimately abandoning the issue. Focusing on the facts raises the problem up to the light and asks the right questions of “what can be done about it”?

JMO, but refs have too much influence over the outcomes of games for me to just have a “ho hum that’s how it goes” attitude about it. The league has a credibility problem and has for many years now. They need to deal with that.

[BearsFanInMN]

I agree the biggest point is consistency. I think there was the same issue with Jawaan Taylor last year and they flagged it occasionally but was doing it on many plays. I remember one game was particularly egregious and announcers mentioned it. Formations aside I saw the KC CB grab Bateman's elbow which altered his ability to catch slightly but no PI, then next series there was the hold on Baltimore's lineman that looked about the same as far as contact and gets called. It's a tough job but I think it's the consistency just lacks and has for years.

[HisRoyalSweetness]

Eberflus was asked about the formation issue and whether it had been raised with the team, particularly the OTs, at his presser today:

"We brought it up. This is our 'situations day' for the team meeting so I go through and pull of situations from preseason, the game last night and we talk about it. We do about a 15 minute deal in there. It's part of the smart phase of our deal, educating the players on the rules, what's going on around the league, the tendencies and what's being emphasised.

And the league sent us a tape about the whole illegal formation and that's what was called last night and the tackles have to break that at the waist of the center. And if you're too far back, typically they give you a warning, but they're starting to call that. That's going to be a point of emphasis.

The other thing that's going to be a point of emphasis is the shaving of the motion with the receivers, so when they come in jet motion or regular motion they've got to make sure that they're still staying horizontal not going vertical towards the line of scrimmage before the ball snaps. So we talked to our guys about that, showed them some clips on that as well so they're informed."

When asked when they got the tape he mentioned he replied:

"I don't know. They always send it to Harry so it was either the day before or whatever, I don't know, last night, I don't know what. I showed it to the guys today."

When again queried about that tape arriving yesterday he joked:

"I believe so, yep. I'll have to ask Harry. Go get him, bring him in here."

It seems a very real possibility that the league sent the tape after the controversy of last night's game. I can't believe the Ravens would have been called 5 times if they'd had that tape prior to the game. Harbaugh's far too experienced and successful a coach not to have ensured it was emphasised to his linemen if they'd received a tape specifically about it beforehand.

[dplank]

I agree the biggest point is consistency. I think there was the same issue with Jawaan Taylor last year and they flagged it occasionally but was doing it on many plays. I remember one game was particularly egregious and announcers mentioned it. Formations aside I saw the KC CB grab Bateman's elbow which altered his ability to catch slightly but no PI, then next series there was the hold on Baltimore's lineman that looked about the same as far as contact and gets called. It's a tough job but I think it's the consistency just lacks and has for years.

Yep. And humans will always be imperfect and make mistakes, there doesn’t have to be a devious motive behind it. The question I have, and have had for many years, is why does the NFL seem content with it when there are several ways they can improve the situation?

[LacertineForest]

I agree the biggest point is consistency. I think there was the same issue with Jawaan Taylor last year and they flagged it occasionally but was doing it on many plays. I remember one game was particularly egregious and announcers mentioned it. Formations aside I saw the KC CB grab Bateman's elbow which altered his ability to catch slightly but no PI, then next series there was the hold on Baltimore's lineman that looked about the same as far as contact and gets called. It's a tough job but I think it's the consistency just lacks and has for years.

Yep. And humans will always be imperfect and make mistakes, there doesn’t have to be a devious motive behind it. The question I have, and have had for many years, is why does the NFL seem content with it when there are several ways they can improve the situation?

Probably because people still watch and it generates interest (even if it's negative). It would be nice to see them actually address it, but until you get owners screaming about it, nothing's really going to happen.

[RichH55]

Another conspiracy??!?

[malk]

I don’t know the motives or even if there was intent. All I know is it wasn’t called fairly, and that seems to be supported by various players, coaches, and impartial league experts.

Diving into motives heads down a path of futility and ultimately abandoning the issue. Focusing on the facts raises the problem up to the light and asks the right questions of “what can be done about it”?

JMO, but refs have too much influence over the outcomes of games for me to just have a “ho hum that’s how it goes” attitude about it. The league has a credibility problem and has for many years now. They need to deal with that.

I don't know enough about the precise mechanics of the game to be certain but ime these are nearly always due to poorly designed rules where it's virtually impossible to officiate consistently or those situations where everyone gets away with stuff the vast majority of the time until someone gets picked up for it and you've very little explanation for why then and not the other times.

Of course that doesn't mean it's simple to resolve. Calling every instance of holding would cause absolute chaos but it does mean that we're then reliant on official's interpretations on any given play rather than the rule.

We should either just allow holding or make every lineman on both sides wear a club for every game lol. The centre gets one hand free for snaps, I'm not a monster.

[Rusty Trombagent]

I think the other problem that makes this not cut and dry is, the calls against the ravens were called against their LT. They were called by the Line Judge, which is positioned on his outside hip. Crying about the Chief's RT, which is being watched by the Head Linesman on his outside hip is talking about two different referees.

There has always been human error cooked into the game, it's just that we have 800 cameras shooting everything in hi-def now.

[dplank]

I think the other problem that makes this not cut and dry is, the calls against the ravens were called against their LT. They were called by the Line Judge, which is positioned on his outside hip. Crying about the Chief's RT, which is being watched by the Head Linesman on his outside hip is talking about two different referees.

There has always been human error cooked into the game, it's just that we have 800 cameras shooting everything in hi-def now.

I counter your "crying" insult, with a simple comment: Burying your head in the sand and ignoring an obvious problem that the league has had for many years is foolish. And attempts to move the goalposts on the argument to a conspiracy theory is moronic.

The league has had a serious credibility problem, which is getting steadily worse each year, with their officiating. It's a disaster. The refs throw flags far, far, far too often. It's ruining the flow of the game. It's tainting the outcome of too many games. It's a problem that deserves attention.

[Shadow]

I coached Basketball for 20 years.
I always told my players, never let the Refs dictate your game. If they are making questionable calls, adjust your approach and take that away from them.
If they call ticky tack fouls for hand checking, stop hand checking and move your feet.
That Ravens tackle just needed to move up a bit or lower his head to mitigate those penalties.
You get called twice for the same infraction (regardless of the foul) you must change your approach.

[dplank]

I coached Basketball for 20 years.
I always told my players, never let the Refs dictate your game. If they are making questionable calls, adjust your approach and take that away from them.
If they call ticky tack fouls for hand checking, stop hand checking and move your feet.
That Ravens tackle just needed to move up a bit or lower his head to mitigate those penalties.
You get called twice for the same infraction (regardless of the foul) you must change your approach.

Agree 100%. Move up a couple inches and they'd stop calling it. This is a correct answer to that particular event, but doesn't address the larger issue that remains - the NFL product is seriously degraded by the frequency of penalties, the outsized impact that penalties now play in the outcomes of games, and then the frequency of bad calls amplifies the problem.

[Rusty Trombagent]

I think the other problem that makes this not cut and dry is, the calls against the ravens were called against their LT. They were called by the Line Judge, which is positioned on his outside hip. Crying about the Chief's RT, which is being watched by the Head Linesman on his outside hip is talking about two different referees.

There has always been human error cooked into the game, it's just that we have 800 cameras shooting everything in hi-def now.

I counter your "crying" insult, with a simple comment: Burying your head in the sand and ignoring an obvious problem that the league has had for many years is foolish. And attempts to move the goalposts on the argument to a conspiracy theory is moronic.

The league has had a serious credibility problem, which is getting steadily worse each year, with their officiating. It's a disaster. The refs throw flags far, far, far too often. It's ruining the flow of the game. It's tainting the outcome of too many games. It's a problem that deserves attention.

what's your solution?

[Boris13c]

there are so many times the referee errors are so comically inept that it seems the NFL's goal is to morph into the "sports entertainment" realm (like pro wrestling) where actual real officiating doesn't really matter much

there are so many resources available to them to improve in this area, and their refusal to address and accept improvements is inexcusable

[wab]

If the league had a “serious credibility problem” something would have already been done because it would be costing them significant revenue.

They have an officiating inconsistency issue at best.

[dplank]

I counter your "crying" insult, with a simple comment: Burying your head in the sand and ignoring an obvious problem that the league has had for many years is foolish. And attempts to move the goalposts on the argument to a conspiracy theory is moronic.

The league has had a serious credibility problem, which is getting steadily worse each year, with their officiating. It's a disaster. The refs throw flags far, far, far too often. It's ruining the flow of the game. It's tainting the outcome of too many games. It's a problem that deserves attention.

what's your solution?

I have several, but I've also learned over the years how to deal with posters like you and I'm not going to constantly lead with my own thoughts while you kick back and throw shade without offering an original thought yourself. So, you'll have to come with more first. For starters, admitting there's an issue - why would I head down hypotheticals if you don't even acknowledge the issue to begin with? Then, if you really want to engage like an adult, maybe toss a few ideas out yourself! I won't even be snarky about it, we can have actual human discourse without demeaning one another - what a concept!

[dplank]

If the league had a “serious credibility problem” something would have already been done because it would be costing them significant revenue.

They have an officiating inconsistency issue at best.

IMO that's a huge over simplification. If your point is that poor officiating hasn't cost the league revenue, then of course I'd agree. But it's hard to tell what, or when, there might be some degradation occurring that may knock the NFL off it's perch as the most dominant sports league. Baseball used to own that, then they went through some real dark times, and were forward thinking about their pace of play issues and worked to resolve them. IMO it's had a tremendous positive impact on the sport.

Football isn't immune to having problems, and swiping them away because their revenue hasn't fallen yet feels like a bad answer to me. The core problem here is the VOLUME of penalties. The secondary problem is the inconsistency of those penalty calls. I'll never forget going to Australia and talking to some rugby fans about NFL football and their very first comment was "Oh, that's the american version of Rugby where they call penalties on every play. Why would anyone watch that?". My comeback sounded like yours, I was defensive and said "we get a ton more viewers than rugby gets", but that doesn't invalidate their comment or make it less true.

So just to double clarify: the core problem is the sheer volume of penalties that happen in each game. The officials have too much influence over the outcomes of games because of this, which is only exacerbated by the inconsistency of their calls (which, BTW, I don't even really blame on the humans, I blame the complexity of the rule book and the leagues refusal to further utilize technology to help them). Speeding up the game time by running the clock more on OOB plays, or shortening overtime - no one really wanted that. How about speeding up the game by simplifying the rules, having technology as a real time fact checker on the refs, and ultimately calling less penalties. Penalties = stoppages.

[wab]

All I’m saying is that if/when the NFL machine starts losing money because of some degradation in play, they won’t care all that much. I’m oversimplifying it because it’s simple.

[dplank]

I’m assuming you meant “until they lose money they won’t care”? Certainly true even if not at all helpful.

I find the subject complex and interesting, and figured a group of hardcore football fans would be smart people to chat about it. Oh well…

[Otis Day]

Has officiating caused you to watch less football?

Think about this, with all the reviews that we see after play and penalty, the refs are getting the call right the vast majority of the time. So while there are a lot of flags flying, they seem to be justified.

I do not get worked up over reffing, I tend to concentrate on missed blocks, missed assignments, poor tackling, misreads, poor throws, forced fumbles, Velus type fumbles as affecting the outcome of games.