Offensive Line - What will it look like

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HisRoyalSweetness wrote: Wed Oct 30, 2024 11:17 pm
RichH55 wrote: Wed Oct 30, 2024 10:58 pm

Just curious but has another injury perhaps changed this calculus?
It's an interesting question. Jenkins has continued to play through his latest ailments and although it was only a walkthrough today he was listed as limited rather than DNP, which suggests he may be able to play on Sunday. Will him toughing it out and remaining available be seen by Poles as a significant positive that outweighs the fact that he's continued to get banged up? He's still the best OL on the team by some margin. (For those who put stock in PFF, they currently rank him as the 10th best OG in the NFL)
Fair points.

I keep coming back to this though: When is the last time a Player getting a year older and paid a lot more made them less injury prone?
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Chicago - where offensive linemen come to die

B Jones - good rookie year, now deteriorating
D Wright - good rookie year, now deteriorating

Our Oline coaches are bunk.
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The Lions have the best Oline in the league at the moment.
It consists of :

R1 pick 2016
R2 pick 2016
R1 pick 2018
R1 pick 2021
Bengals R1 pick 2012

That’s how you invest :thumbsup:
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RichH55
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Ditka’s dictaphone wrote: Thu Oct 31, 2024 2:19 am The Lions have the best Oline in the league at the moment.
It consists of :

R1 pick 2016
R2 pick 2016
R1 pick 2018
R1 pick 2021
Bengals R1 pick 2012

That’s how you invest :thumbsup:
That's a damn fair post too
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HisRoyalSweetness wrote: Wed Oct 30, 2024 11:17 pm
RichH55 wrote: Wed Oct 30, 2024 10:58 pm

Just curious but has another injury perhaps changed this calculus?
It's an interesting question. Jenkins has continued to play through his latest ailments and although it was only a walkthrough today he was listed as limited rather than DNP, which suggests he may be able to play on Sunday. Will him toughing it out and remaining available be seen by Poles as a significant positive that outweighs the fact that he's continued to get banged up? He's still the best OL on the team by some margin. (For those who put stock in PFF, they currently rank him as the 10th best OG in the NFL)
It has to be a combination of both toughing it out and playing good enough whilst doing so. Really difficult to evaluate with all the changes on the line but he's doing well enough on that front so far. But whilst playing in every game is good, missing 22% of the potential snaps is less so. $15m per with good guarantees but a bit of protection from the team is about my limit so far. Maybe a little north of that if it's say 5 years with more potential to inflate away some of the cost. Alternatively something like a shorter version the Ben Powers deal, say 3 years at $13-14m so he has a chance to get a nice extension after a couple of years or go back to free agency at 29.
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malk wrote: Thu Oct 31, 2024 7:58 am
HisRoyalSweetness wrote: Wed Oct 30, 2024 11:17 pm

It's an interesting question. Jenkins has continued to play through his latest ailments and although it was only a walkthrough today he was listed as limited rather than DNP, which suggests he may be able to play on Sunday. Will him toughing it out and remaining available be seen by Poles as a significant positive that outweighs the fact that he's continued to get banged up? He's still the best OL on the team by some margin. (For those who put stock in PFF, they currently rank him as the 10th best OG in the NFL)
It has to be a combination of both toughing it out and playing good enough whilst doing so. Really difficult to evaluate with all the changes on the line but he's doing well enough on that front so far. But whilst playing in every game is good, missing 22% of the potential snaps is less so. $15m per with good guarantees but a bit of protection from the team is about my limit so far. Maybe a little north of that if it's say 5 years with more potential to inflate away some of the cost. Alternatively something like a shorter version the Ben Powers deal, say 3 years at $13-14m so he has a chance to get a nice extension after a couple of years or go back to free agency at 29.
Fair enough. I just keep going back and forth on it. There is value when he plays.

It's a rich tapistry overall - I don't love paying Guards - and that isn't Tev specific. I think we have some guys coming up for new deals (though I think Brisker is a ? for a 2nd deal). I also ABSOLUTELY got over my skies and was starting to look into Myles Garret's potential cap hit (WHOOPS) - though Pick like 21 looks meh to me this year - Looks like a Guard type as part of the value (Unless that Kentucky kid makes it to us)

Please, please don't take this as I'm questioning Tev's toughness (IM NOT) - but he is absolutely playing for a new contract right now - this is a huge, huge season for his future. So the incentive to play through pain is as high as its ever going to be
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RichH55 wrote: Thu Oct 31, 2024 8:11 am
malk wrote: Thu Oct 31, 2024 7:58 am

It has to be a combination of both toughing it out and playing good enough whilst doing so. Really difficult to evaluate with all the changes on the line but he's doing well enough on that front so far. But whilst playing in every game is good, missing 22% of the potential snaps is less so. $15m per with good guarantees but a bit of protection from the team is about my limit so far. Maybe a little north of that if it's say 5 years with more potential to inflate away some of the cost. Alternatively something like a shorter version the Ben Powers deal, say 3 years at $13-14m so he has a chance to get a nice extension after a couple of years or go back to free agency at 29.
Fair enough. I just keep going back and forth on it. There is value when he plays.

It's a rich tapistry overall - I don't love paying Guards - and that isn't Tev specific. I think we have some guys coming up for new deals (though I think Brisker is a ? for a 2nd deal). I also ABSOLUTELY got over my skies and was starting to look into Myles Garret's potential cap hit (WHOOPS) - though Pick like 21 looks meh to me this year - Looks like a Guard type as part of the value (Unless that Kentucky kid makes it to us)

Please, please don't take this as I'm questioning Tev's toughness (IM NOT) - but he is absolutely playing for a new contract right now - this is a huge, huge season for his future. So the incentive to play through pain is as high as its ever going to be
It isn't a guard thing for me really, I just dislike paying those top 10ish salaries where the costs seem to go up exponentially. On the other hand, I don't think Jenkins has done enough to get in that range and I don't really believe in "injury proneness", or at least not to the degree it gets spoken about as the sample sizes are so small a little run of bad luck leads to conclusions that aren't really supported imo. And if that's the case, Mac Columbo 2.0, we might be able to get a very good player at a bit of a discount and, not least given the current dire state of our line, that may well be worth the risk.
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Ditka’s dictaphone wrote: Thu Oct 31, 2024 2:19 am The Lions have the best Oline in the league at the moment.
It consists of :

R1 pick 2016
R2 pick 2016
R1 pick 2018
R1 pick 2021
Bengals R1 pick 2012

That’s how you invest :thumbsup:
2016 to 2021 is a 6 year span. Does Poles get three more years to invest?
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OL is far and away our weak link on this team, AFAIK not a single person on the board thinks otherwise. Tev is our best OL, I think most if not all on the board believe this as well - as does PFF. We all seem to believe that we need to invest more into OL.

While there are a lot of factors to consider, including health, these are the primary takeaways and they clearly point to retaining Tev. You can’t simultaneously agree we need OL improvement in one breath then ho hum it about resigning your top OL player.

As far as his price goes, it doesn’t matter what we think. Market speaks right? Whatever the market says he’s worth is what he’s worth. And I think Poles needs to be aggressive in retaining him and pay market price.
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dplank wrote: Thu Oct 31, 2024 8:40 am OL is far and away our weak link on this team, AFAIK not a single person on the board thinks otherwise. Tev is our best OL, I think most if not all on the board believe this as well - as does PFF. We all seem to believe that we need to invest more into OL.

While there are a lot of factors to consider, including health, these are the primary takeaways and they clearly point to retaining Tev. You can’t simultaneously agree we need OL improvement in one breath then ho hum it about resigning your top OL player.

As far as his price goes, it doesn’t matter what we think. Market speaks right? Whatever the market says he’s worth is what he’s worth. And I think Poles needs to be aggressive in retaining him and pay market price.
I'm no GM or cap guy (obviously) but I think a four-year deal with some amount of injury protection and an easy out after year three is fair. OTC valuations have him all over the place, but I think 13-14 mil per is a good spot. Essentially the Damien Lewis contract. I'd be pleased with that.
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wab wrote: Thu Oct 31, 2024 8:48 am
dplank wrote: Thu Oct 31, 2024 8:40 am OL is far and away our weak link on this team, AFAIK not a single person on the board thinks otherwise. Tev is our best OL, I think most if not all on the board believe this as well - as does PFF. We all seem to believe that we need to invest more into OL.

While there are a lot of factors to consider, including health, these are the primary takeaways and they clearly point to retaining Tev. You can’t simultaneously agree we need OL improvement in one breath then ho hum it about resigning your top OL player.

As far as his price goes, it doesn’t matter what we think. Market speaks right? Whatever the market says he’s worth is what he’s worth. And I think Poles needs to be aggressive in retaining him and pay market price.
I'm no GM or cap guy (obviously) but I think a four-year deal with some amount of injury protection and an easy out after year three is fair. OTC valuations have him all over the place, but I think 13-14 mil per is a good spot. Essentially the Damien Lewis contract. I'd be pleased with that.
I'd say the out should come after 2 years, not 3. That goes with any contract really.

The guarantees will be the key.

I have no problem paying a higher annual average if the guarantees allow that out after just 2 years if a player doesn't pan out. I'd rather a 4-year $68m ($17m a year) deal with $24m guaranteed than a 4-year $56m ($14m a year) deal with $32m guaranteed. That gives the player a chance to earn more overall but only if he stays healthy and performs well to justify the team keeping him for the full duration of the contract.

As a player, especially one looking to secure his family's long-term future and with his injury history, Jenkins will probably put more emphasis on guarantees though.
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wab wrote: Thu Oct 31, 2024 8:37 am
Ditka’s dictaphone wrote: Thu Oct 31, 2024 2:19 am The Lions have the best Oline in the league at the moment.
It consists of :

R1 pick 2016
R2 pick 2016
R1 pick 2018
R1 pick 2021
Bengals R1 pick 2012

That’s how you invest :thumbsup:
2016 to 2021 is a 6 year span. Does Poles get three more years to invest?
This is how I feel, too.

Next year, if OL is drafted R1 and R2, you could have:

R2 2021 (Jenkins)
R1 2023 (Wright)
R1 2025 (Draftee)
R2 2025 (Draftee)
R??? (FA signing - could have high draft status)

Would that suddenly mean the bears have invested in OL in the draft? (not directed at you, @wab - more of a rhetorical question).
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wab wrote: Thu Oct 31, 2024 8:48 am
dplank wrote: Thu Oct 31, 2024 8:40 am OL is far and away our weak link on this team, AFAIK not a single person on the board thinks otherwise. Tev is our best OL, I think most if not all on the board believe this as well - as does PFF. We all seem to believe that we need to invest more into OL.

While there are a lot of factors to consider, including health, these are the primary takeaways and they clearly point to retaining Tev. You can’t simultaneously agree we need OL improvement in one breath then ho hum it about resigning your top OL player.

As far as his price goes, it doesn’t matter what we think. Market speaks right? Whatever the market says he’s worth is what he’s worth. And I think Poles needs to be aggressive in retaining him and pay market price.
I'm no GM or cap guy (obviously) but I think a four-year deal with some amount of injury protection and an easy out after year three is fair. OTC valuations have him all over the place, but I think 13-14 mil per is a good spot. Essentially the Damien Lewis contract. I'd be pleased with that.
Sounds about right to me. We will pay a premium if we let him test the market though, so IMO I'd like to go ahead and get this done now. He's shown enough to take the risk on the extension and we don't need another hole to fill this offseason, particularly up front.
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LacertineForest wrote: Thu Oct 31, 2024 10:05 am
wab wrote: Thu Oct 31, 2024 8:37 am

2016 to 2021 is a 6 year span. Does Poles get three more years to invest?
This is how I feel, too.

Next year, if OL is drafted R1 and R2, you could have:

R2 2021 (Jenkins)
R1 2023 (Wright)
R1 2025 (Draftee)
R2 2025 (Draftee)
R??? (FA signing - could have high draft status)

Would that suddenly mean the bears have invested in OL in the draft? (not directed at you, @wab - more of a rhetorical question).
You also have an R3 in there with KA (assuming he progresses well enough to take someone's spot).
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LacertineForest wrote: Thu Oct 31, 2024 10:05 am
wab wrote: Thu Oct 31, 2024 8:37 am

2016 to 2021 is a 6 year span. Does Poles get three more years to invest?
This is how I feel, too.

Next year, if OL is drafted R1 and R2, you could have:

R2 2021 (Jenkins)
R1 2023 (Wright)
R1 2025 (Draftee)
R2 2025 (Draftee)
R??? (FA signing - could have high draft status)

Would that suddenly mean the bears have invested in OL in the draft? (not directed at you, @wab - more of a rhetorical question).
I would say yes, but we'll see if he actually spends his top 2 picks there or not. History suggests that he won't do that. There's 3 legs to this discussion: Draft investment, FA investment, and then the evaluation side of either the draftee or FA signing. He has to get one of the first two right and the last one right for it to work and have a good OL. His failure thus far hasn't been singular, he's invested a little too light for my taste and has compounded that by failing to hit on his evaluations too frequently. 3 full off seasons into Poles tenure, and the best OL on this team wasn't even acquired by Poles - he was drafted by Pace. That's just not good enough.

He failed to invest properly in the draft in Y1, taking a smattering of late round prospects. But he did hit on Jones at least, which saved his Y1 grade a bit. We weren't in a position while tearing down to spend on FA so I don't ding him for not investing in FA at that point. I do ding him for not drafting aggressively into the position group. Patrick signing was a miss but a low cost miss.

In Y2, he failed on evaluations. Nate Davis was a big fail and was his biggest cash investment into the position, that's a huge miss that he can't have if he's also not investing heavily enough. I credit him for spending a 1st round pick on Wright though, and that evaluation right now is TBD I'd say. He chose to ignore the C position in the draft for a second straight year.

In Y3, he spend a 3rd round pick on a developmental OT prospect and signed Bates, Shelton. Shelton has really turned things around and seems like a decent signing at that price, BUT I'd still argue he failed to invest properly here. There were better C prospects available, several of them, and he let them go elsewhere. And he again passed on drafting the C position when there were several good ones coming out. Just feels like another year of underinvestment in the position group.

In Y4, will he change his stripes? I sure hope so by I don't have my hopes up based on his track record. Sometimes you have to step back from the minutia and take a broader view of a longer time frame to see the bigger picture. This is one of those cases. We can debate each individual signing, draftee, or guys that we chose to pass on in FA or whatever - but that misses the overarching point and more importantly the results. When we signed Poles to be our GM, we all thought he would finally fix our OL problems, that was his calling card - and it's just indisputable that he has failed to do that thus far.
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dplank wrote: Thu Oct 31, 2024 10:19 am
LacertineForest wrote: Thu Oct 31, 2024 10:05 am

This is how I feel, too.

Next year, if OL is drafted R1 and R2, you could have:

R2 2021 (Jenkins)
R1 2023 (Wright)
R1 2025 (Draftee)
R2 2025 (Draftee)
R??? (FA signing - could have high draft status)

Would that suddenly mean the bears have invested in OL in the draft? (not directed at you, @wab - more of a rhetorical question).
I would say yes, but we'll see if he actually spends his top 2 picks there or not. History suggests that he won't do that. There's 3 legs to this discussion: Draft investment, FA investment, and then the evaluation side of either the draftee or FA signing. He has to get one of the first two right and the last one right for it to work and have a good OL. His failure thus far hasn't been singular, he's invested a little too light for my taste and has compounded that by failing to hit on his evaluations too frequently. 3 full off seasons into Poles tenure, and the best OL on this team wasn't even acquired by Poles - he was drafted by Pace. That's just not good enough.

He failed to invest properly in the draft in Y1, taking a smattering of late round prospects. But he did hit on Jones at least, which saved his Y1 grade a bit. We weren't in a position while tearing down to spend on FA so I don't ding him for not investing in FA at that point. I do ding him for not drafting aggressively into the position group. Patrick signing was a miss but a low cost miss.

In Y2, he failed on evaluations. Nate Davis was a big fail and was his biggest cash investment into the position, that's a huge miss that he can't have if he's also not investing heavily enough. I credit him for spending a 1st round pick on Wright though, and that evaluation right now is TBD I'd say. He chose to ignore the C position in the draft for a second straight year.

In Y3, he spend a 3rd round pick on a developmental OT prospect and signed Bates, Shelton. Shelton has really turned things around and seems like a decent signing at that price, BUT I'd still argue he failed to invest properly here. There were better C prospects available, several of them, and he let them go elsewhere. And he again passed on drafting the C position when there were several good ones coming out. Just feels like another year of underinvestment in the position group.

In Y4, will he change his stripes? I sure hope so by I don't have my hopes up based on his track record.
This is all very fair, but I think the reason why Y4 will be different is that I believe Poles rebuilt the team by determining where the best value was and focusing on those positions. Pretty much every area of the team is at least average or better, with the exception of the OL. Now he can pour resources into that area and remake it. I see it like how he drafted Brisker and Gordon highly to start remaking the secondary in his first year, signed Trumaine Edmunds and TJ Edwards early in FA in his second to shape the LB corps, and then drafted Odunze and signed Keenan Allen in his 3rd to give the receiving room a big boost.

That's my hope, anyway.

I also don't necessarily think Poles spends his first 2 picks on OL, but I could definitely see 2 of the first 3 (since we have 2 picks in R2).
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wab wrote: Thu Oct 31, 2024 10:11 am
LacertineForest wrote: Thu Oct 31, 2024 10:05 am

This is how I feel, too.

Next year, if OL is drafted R1 and R2, you could have:

R2 2021 (Jenkins)
R1 2023 (Wright)
R1 2025 (Draftee)
R2 2025 (Draftee)
R??? (FA signing - could have high draft status)

Would that suddenly mean the bears have invested in OL in the draft? (not directed at you, @wab - more of a rhetorical question).
You also have an R3 in there with KA (assuming he progresses well enough to take someone's spot).
What we've done in the past doesn't seem massively relevant right now, we are where we are. You'd expect we have to double dip in both draft and free agency next year. Fortunately we don't have many needs coming up elsewhere, Allen (but you don't *need* 3 top end WRs), Darrell Taylor and the rest is, not important, but depth. So I wouldn't be surprised to see two of the three top picks (1st and 2 2nds) go on offensive linemen. But we should be looking at the whole range of free agents, Zeitler is having a great year in Detroit and demonstrates that we shouldn't be ruling out elder statesmen (7 years younger than I am lol). Who they might be is another question, if we bring back Jenkins, you also think Wright is due to keep starting. LT is funny given thoughts on Jones and the investment on KA last year, and the cost of getting an improvement on Jones in FA... Center and RG seem the obvious choices to get someone in.
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Our need is mostly inside, and you can get really good ones in R2/3, so I'd be perfectly happy if he spend 2 picks there between the 2,2,3 rd picks that we have and go for a more premium position with our R1 pick (DE/DT would be ideal).

Another aspect of this is coaching, and we've all mentioned Chris Morgan in the past. I know that's Flus' job per se to eval and replace him, but the buck stops with Poles so if Flus has a blind spot there it's on Poles to force his hand.

Bottom line is the performance level we've seen cannot continue, it just can't. No matter the circumstances, no matter the cost. It must be fixed.
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wab wrote: Thu Oct 31, 2024 8:37 am
Ditka’s dictaphone wrote: Thu Oct 31, 2024 2:19 am The Lions have the best Oline in the league at the moment.
It consists of :

R1 pick 2016
R2 pick 2016
R1 pick 2018
R1 pick 2021
Bengals R1 pick 2012

That’s how you invest :thumbsup:
2016 to 2021 is a 6 year span. Does Poles get three more years to invest?
Not to mention that the Lions recently burned a first round pick on a RB? gasp

We're seeing the Pace effect still lingering:
2016 - second round pick Whitehair gone
2017 - trade up for Mitchy the kid
2018 - second round pick Daniels long gone
2019 - no first or second round pick, no OL picked
2020 - no first round pick, use second round picks on Kmet and Johnson, two bums OL picks in the 7th
2021 - Justin Fields trade up, then Tev in the second and Borom in the 5th
2022 - first Poles draft, no first round due to Fields trade, used two 2nd rd picks on defense, Jones in the 5th

If you're building the team and want to do it through the draft then it's going to take more time. 31 other teams tend to hold on to their good OL players.
I hope Poles has a few more years to invest.
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wab wrote: Thu Oct 31, 2024 8:37 am
Ditka’s dictaphone wrote: Thu Oct 31, 2024 2:19 am The Lions have the best Oline in the league at the moment.
It consists of :

R1 pick 2016
R2 pick 2016
R1 pick 2018
R1 pick 2021
Bengals R1 pick 2012

That’s how you invest :thumbsup:
2016 to 2021 is a 6 year span. Does Poles get three more years to invest?
3 more drafts. Maybe.
It depends on whether he ties his future to Uberlose or not.
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LacertineForest wrote: Thu Oct 31, 2024 10:05 am
wab wrote: Thu Oct 31, 2024 8:37 am

2016 to 2021 is a 6 year span. Does Poles get three more years to invest?
This is how I feel, too.

Next year, if OL is drafted R1 and R2, you could have:

R2 2021 (Jenkins)
R1 2023 (Wright)
R1 2025 (Draftee)
R2 2025 (Draftee)
R??? (FA signing - could have high draft status)

Would that suddenly mean the bears have invested in OL in the draft? (not directed at you, @wab - more of a rhetorical question).
I don't know how much I like the idea of starting 2 rookies on the OL. Spend a first and second along with a third/fourth you don't plan on starting right away.
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HisRoyalSweetness wrote: Wed Oct 30, 2024 11:17 pm
RichH55 wrote: Wed Oct 30, 2024 10:58 pm

Just curious but has another injury perhaps changed this calculus?
It's an interesting question. Jenkins has continued to play through his latest ailments and although it was only a walkthrough today he was listed as limited rather than DNP, which suggests he may be able to play on Sunday. Will him toughing it out and remaining available be seen by Poles as a significant positive that outweighs the fact that he's continued to get banged up? He's still the best OL on the team by some margin. (For those who put stock in PFF, they currently rank him as the 10th best OG in the NFL)
He's very anti-Davis in intensity and willingness to push through it.
But you can't disregard 3 different snap-missing injuries in only 7 games, either (on top of a lot of games missed in years 1-3, of course).
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Moriarty wrote: Thu Oct 31, 2024 3:08 pm
HisRoyalSweetness wrote: Wed Oct 30, 2024 11:17 pm

It's an interesting question. Jenkins has continued to play through his latest ailments and although it was only a walkthrough today he was listed as limited rather than DNP, which suggests he may be able to play on Sunday. Will him toughing it out and remaining available be seen by Poles as a significant positive that outweighs the fact that he's continued to get banged up? He's still the best OL on the team by some margin. (For those who put stock in PFF, they currently rank him as the 10th best OG in the NFL)
He's very anti-Davis in intensity and willingness to push through it.
But you can't disregard 3 different snap-missing injuries in only 7 games, either (on top of a lot of games missed in years 1-3, of course).
Over the last two years, the only OL that's been more durable than Tev has been Darnell Wright. So I still believe that most people aren't applying the same litmus test to him as they are others. With Braxton Jones, for example, no one mentions his injury issues as part of his eval, it's all about "can he anchor" and "has he regressed". But with Tev, it's all you hear. Not taking the same test.
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Arkansasbear wrote: Thu Oct 31, 2024 2:49 pm
LacertineForest wrote: Thu Oct 31, 2024 10:05 am

This is how I feel, too.

Next year, if OL is drafted R1 and R2, you could have:

R2 2021 (Jenkins)
R1 2023 (Wright)
R1 2025 (Draftee)
R2 2025 (Draftee)
R??? (FA signing - could have high draft status)

Would that suddenly mean the bears have invested in OL in the draft? (not directed at you, @wab - more of a rhetorical question).
I don't know how much I like the idea of starting 2 rookies on the OL. Spend a first and second along with a third/fourth you don't plan on starting right away.
I didn't necessarily mean that they'd both start, I was just showing all the R1/R2 investments you could have on the team by next year - the main point being that I think you can really change things drastically in a single year (so long as you hit on your picks). I also think that it's a bit of a false narrative that looking at draft round means all that much - the goddamn Packers aren't picking OL R1/R2 every year and they always seem to have a decent OL. I do agree with the general point, though, that a lot of high draft picks towards the OL indicates a commitment to building a good one.
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dplank wrote: Thu Oct 31, 2024 8:40 am

While there are a lot of factors to consider, including health, these are the primary takeaways and they clearly point to retaining Tev. You can’t simultaneously agree we need OL improvement in one breath then ho hum it about resigning your top OL player.

I mean - this isn't anywhere near as logically inescapable as you want it to be. Because there are all SORTs of reasons you can easily hold both positions

This just ignores alot of context to try and make a weird point about people who aren't as high on Jenkins as you.

It's a very Sonny Corleone way toward Roster Building IMHO
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dplank wrote: Thu Oct 31, 2024 3:52 pm
Moriarty wrote: Thu Oct 31, 2024 3:08 pm

He's very anti-Davis in intensity and willingness to push through it.
But you can't disregard 3 different snap-missing injuries in only 7 games, either (on top of a lot of games missed in years 1-3, of course).
Over the last two years, the only OL that's been more durable than Tev has been Darnell Wright. So I still believe that most people aren't applying the same litmus test to him as they are others. With Braxton Jones, for example, no one mentions his injury issues as part of his eval, it's all about "can he anchor" and "has he regressed". But with Tev, it's all you hear. Not taking the same test.
Man - if only we had a sample size of more than the Bears. Or more than 2 Years to work with. Weird. I'd put that on the "Test" myself. But then it wouldn't be a Pro Tevin position

The evaluation probably shoudn't be "better than Nate Davis" (that should be like baked in to start with)

Also - We absolutely are getting to that point with Braxton Jones where injuries need to be in the conversation
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Moriarty wrote: Thu Oct 31, 2024 3:08 pm
HisRoyalSweetness wrote: Wed Oct 30, 2024 11:17 pm

It's an interesting question. Jenkins has continued to play through his latest ailments and although it was only a walkthrough today he was listed as limited rather than DNP, which suggests he may be able to play on Sunday. Will him toughing it out and remaining available be seen by Poles as a significant positive that outweighs the fact that he's continued to get banged up? He's still the best OL on the team by some margin. (For those who put stock in PFF, they currently rank him as the 10th best OG in the NFL)
He's very anti-Davis in intensity and willingness to push through it.
But you can't disregard 3 different snap-missing injuries in only 7 games, either (on top of a lot of games missed in years 1-3, of course).
People want to disregard it though

He's actually had decent timing on injuries (for the most part). The knee injury came late this last game for example.

And his Dueling Calf injuries came during Camp/Preseason so he missed less Regular Season games with it than if it happened it like Week 2 (missing portions of training camp isn't mentioned for his "Durability")
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malk wrote: Thu Oct 31, 2024 8:19 am
RichH55 wrote: Thu Oct 31, 2024 8:11 am

Fair enough. I just keep going back and forth on it. There is value when he plays.

It's a rich tapistry overall - I don't love paying Guards - and that isn't Tev specific. I think we have some guys coming up for new deals (though I think Brisker is a ? for a 2nd deal). I also ABSOLUTELY got over my skies and was starting to look into Myles Garret's potential cap hit (WHOOPS) - though Pick like 21 looks meh to me this year - Looks like a Guard type as part of the value (Unless that Kentucky kid makes it to us)

Please, please don't take this as I'm questioning Tev's toughness (IM NOT) - but he is absolutely playing for a new contract right now - this is a huge, huge season for his future. So the incentive to play through pain is as high as its ever going to be
It isn't a guard thing for me really, I just dislike paying those top 10ish salaries where the costs seem to go up exponentially. On the other hand, I don't think Jenkins has done enough to get in that range and I don't really believe in "injury proneness", or at least not to the degree it gets spoken about as the sample sizes are so small a little run of bad luck leads to conclusions that aren't really supported imo. And if that's the case, Mac Columbo 2.0, we might be able to get a very good player at a bit of a discount and, not least given the current dire state of our line, that may well be worth the risk.
Columbo was more of a 1 MASSIVE injury thing - he wasn't going down with something different every 3rd Week

Here's a list of things that have been injured (to various degrees) on Jenkins:
Back
Knee
Neck
Head (Concussion)
Ribs
Hip
Calves (Both)
Ankle

He got hurt Stretching in the Preseason this year. (Eh, that's just me piling on - It's true but it was minor and precautionary - The above caused him to miss NFL Snaps though)
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dplank wrote: Thu Oct 31, 2024 10:52 am Our need is mostly inside, and you can get really good ones in R2/3, so I'd be perfectly happy if he spend 2 picks there between the 2,2,3 rd picks that we have and go for a more premium position with our R1 pick (DE/DT would be ideal).

Another aspect of this is coaching, and we've all mentioned Chris Morgan in the past. I know that's Flus' job per se to eval and replace him, but the buck stops with Poles so if Flus has a blind spot there it's on Poles to force his hand.

Bottom line is the performance level we've seen cannot continue, it just can't. No matter the circumstances, no matter the cost. It must be fixed.
Morgan point is underrated. Coaching especially for OL - matters.

And yep that's how I've been potentially looking at the Draft. And noting that Kiran was more a pick for 2025 going forward

We also still don't know what we have in Bates - that DOESNT mean he can't be part of the solution though.
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