OL Discussion

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wab
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OL Discussion

Wed Oct 09, 2019 12:10 pm

It's the bye, so I thought we could harness all of our disdain for the OL in one thread.

I thought this was a fun fact...

On rushes to the right side when it is 3rd or 4th down with 2 or fewer yards to go, the Bears have achieved a first down only 33% of the time. This also includes TD rushes on 1st-and-goal and 2nd-and-goal from the opponent's 2-yard line or closer.

The Bears are successful 100% of the time running left.

If you break it down to rushes between Daniels and Long, it drops to 17%

Granted, I don't know the sample size, but the percentages are telling.
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Re: OL Discussion

Wed Oct 09, 2019 5:37 pm

they need to watch the tapes of the Raiders O-Line and watch what they did to the Bears ... they have some relatively anonymous guys who probably won't remain anonymous now, and they work together quite well

working together seems to be an issue for the Bears ... not sure if it is the scheme and the plays, the players, or an unhealthy combination of both

the key to a good coaching staff is adjusting to the players they have to give them some chance of success ... so if some members of the line are not up to the task and they can't or won't be replaced, then it is up to the coaches to design plays where they can be of use ... like maybe some high school type blast dives, where on the snap all the guy has to do is fire off on the guy in front of him and run him like a blocking sled until the whistle blows

keep it simple and direct and physical and see what happens
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crueltyabc
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Re: OL Discussion

Wed Oct 09, 2019 8:16 pm

If Coward or Bars are at all healthy, they should be in there. If it means protections need to be simplified to cover for their lack of experience, that would probably still be better than having one actively bad player out there and crossing your fingers every down that none of the other guys make any kind of mistake.
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G08
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Re: OL Discussion

Wed Oct 09, 2019 8:22 pm

I don't want to lay all the blame on Kyle Long, but I just don't know how we can continue to trot him out there.
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The Marshall Plan
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Re: OL Discussion

Thu Oct 10, 2019 5:32 am

This is from Sports Mockery and its about the run blocking for Monty.

http://sportsmockery.com/2019/10/a-look ... ontgomery/

From the article....

"Not really. The truth is Montgomery hasn’t gotten much help in the form of run blocking from the offensive line. Here’s an interesting stat to chew on. So far he has carried the ball against a “light” defensive front (one featuring six or fewer defenders in the tackle box a total of 50.7% of his carries this year. Just over half. He’s currently averaging 3.6 yards per carry in those situations. Either that means he goes down way too easy or more likely the blocking hasn’t been good enough."

Just from watching Monty play, he's all effort. The line isn't blocking for him.
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Re: OL Discussion

Thu Oct 10, 2019 9:48 am

I'm getting flashbacks to the Cutler era, where offensive line woes made it seem impossible to evaluate what the team had on that side of the ball.

Looking back to the Raiders game the blocking challenges went beyond the OLine. TEs and WRs in space were badly whiffing on several of Nagy's horizontal plays to players like Cohen, where he tries to get a skill player in space towards the sideline with blockers leading. Unfortunately, when blocking is poor on those plays, they typically result in negative yardage, which happened to the Bears more than once.

Blocking and tackling issues really hurt the team last game. Hopefully the latter was just an anomaly. The blocking has been weak all year. It's tough to win football games when you don't block well.
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Re: OL Discussion

Thu Oct 10, 2019 10:11 am

G08 wrote:
Wed Oct 09, 2019 8:22 pm
I don't want to lay all the blame on Kyle Long, but I just don't know how we can continue to trot him out there.
You can't. Sending him out there would be based solely on some phantom sentimentality. This is a business, and their job is to win games. Long just can't do it anymore. He has no bend in his hips, he's immobile, and lacks the strength he used to have. If he starts after the bye, then the Bears offense will continue to struggle. Full stop. Nagy knows it. He just has to step and make the call.
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Re: OL Discussion

Thu Oct 10, 2019 10:50 am

But, can Nagy or will Nagy make the call to bench Long, at one time the fan favorite? This will speak volumes of Nagy. This is one of the bigger decisions he has to make. I am not sure which way he goes. If Long remains in the lineup, it will look like we got ourselves a weak coach.
Last edited by Otis Day on Thu Oct 10, 2019 11:48 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: OL Discussion

Thu Oct 10, 2019 11:28 am

G08 wrote:
Wed Oct 09, 2019 8:22 pm
I don't want to lay all the blame on Kyle Long, but I just don't know how we can continue to trot him out there.
Coach just has to tell him, "It's not you - it's me". :)
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Re: OL Discussion

Thu Oct 10, 2019 12:28 pm

Bears Whiskey Nut wrote:
Thu Oct 10, 2019 10:11 am
G08 wrote:
Wed Oct 09, 2019 8:22 pm
I don't want to lay all the blame on Kyle Long, but I just don't know how we can continue to trot him out there.
You can't. Sending him out there would be based solely on some phantom sentimentality. This is a business, and their job is to win games. Long just can't do it anymore. He has no bend in his hips, he's immobile, and lacks the strength he used to have. If he starts after the bye, then the Bears offense will continue to struggle. Full stop. Nagy knows it. He just has to step and make the call.
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Re: OL Discussion

Thu Oct 10, 2019 1:48 pm

I love Long. His jersey was the last one I bought. That being said I think IR at least to give him a chance next year as a healthy person. You can save face that way rather than benching him. I assume he is hurt because he sure is playing like it.
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wab
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Re: OL Discussion

Thu Oct 10, 2019 2:54 pm

I just don't think his body is letting him do it any longer. All we heard was how this was the first offseason in years where he wasn't recovering from something and was a full participant in all the offseason programs and training. Between his back, ankles, hip, and neck...it's just taken a toll on him. And remember, he was older than usual when he came into the NFL and already had a lot of wear on him.

I love the guy, but it just feel over. IR him so he keeps his dignity and then quietly let him go in the offseason. He'll play a a few games next year with Oakland and then probably retire.
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The Marshall Plan
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Re: OL Discussion

Thu Oct 10, 2019 5:16 pm

WagonForce wrote:
Thu Oct 10, 2019 9:48 am
I'm getting flashbacks to the Cutler era, where offensive line woes made it seem impossible to evaluate what the team had on that side of the ball.
Ahhhhhhh, those were the days. I miss Smokin' Jay. The golden arm. The apathy. The clutch throws. Being thrown into one fucked situation after another and being the one to catch all the shit for it. No matter. He's got a hot wife and a reality show now. The dude is a stud.

I miss him.
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Re: OL Discussion

Fri Oct 11, 2019 10:53 am

It's not just Long though. Leno been horrible and Massie been just as bad. They should call up Bars and get Coward and Lucas in. We also need to draft OL next year. We're good with Whitehair and Daniels now need the rest
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Re: OL Discussio]

Fri Oct 11, 2019 11:27 am

Leno is getting fucked from the new emphasis that refs are putting on holding, or specifically particular techniques that used to work in the past:
Referee Adrian Hill, who visited the Chicago Bears training camp Monday, said the league is trying to eliminate a technique sometimes known as the "lobster block," where offensive linemen grab defenders around the torso or shoulders to prevent them from flowing to the play from the backside.
If I'm not mistaken, the block is LEGAL if the offensive lineman has his head in front of the defensive player, which I saw Leno do at least once last week against Oakland but got flagged anyway. He'll have to clean it up and, if the Bears are smart, they'll send video to the league's headquarters for review because he's getting screwed over.
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Re: OL Discussion

Fri Oct 11, 2019 12:13 pm

I feel badly for Long, you can see his face after some of those plays. He knows he can't play his best right now, and he has always been a loyal team guy. But he has to be off the field unless HH can do something with him miraculous. It hurts as a fan too because he has been such a great BEAR. I like the idea of IR if he will go for it, but he is a stubborn man, he may not be willing to go. Leno has had two issues to me. First he has made a LOT of penalties, I think a lot due to a combo of rules changes and refs being ticky-tacky at times. The other is some effort issues, or maybe communication, but he has whiffed on some blocks in a way that doesn't look like him from last year at all. I hope his issues are something HH can fix.
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Re: OL Discussion

Fri Oct 11, 2019 12:45 pm

Here's one where Leno got screwed IMO. There was a bit of a makeup call (roughing the passer) that kept the drive going, so you could argue it didn't terribly impact the game, but it does impact perception and evaluation of Leno

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https://www.dropbox.com/s/9ablfdjkg72sc ... obster.PNG

Btw Montgomery is stuffed on this play because Long fails to disengage from the guy he and Daniels are doubling to stop the LB from filling the hole.
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Re: OL Discussion

Fri Oct 11, 2019 1:09 pm

wab wrote:
Wed Oct 09, 2019 12:10 pm

I thought this was a fun fact...

On rushes to the right side when it is 3rd or 4th down with 2 or fewer yards to go, the Bears have achieved a first down only 33% of the time. This also includes TD rushes on 1st-and-goal and 2nd-and-goal from the opponent's 2-yard line or closer.

The Bears are successful 100% of the time running left.

If you break it down to rushes between Daniels and Long, it drops to 17%

Granted, I don't know the sample size, but the percentages are telling.
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wab wrote:
Wed Oct 09, 2019 12:10 pm
It's the bye, so I thought we could harness all of our disdain for the OL in one thread.
You think one thread can hold it all?
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Otis Day
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Re: OL Discussion

Sun Oct 13, 2019 1:00 pm

Long likely to IR. Good move Bears, Nagy thanks for having the balls to do it.

http://www.nfl.com/news/story/0ap300000 ... -hip-on-ir
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Re: OL Discussion

Sun Oct 13, 2019 6:00 pm

I can understand that Long is struggling because of injuries, Daniels is adjusting to being an NFL center but what's going on with Leno? I thought he was rated highly last year?
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Re: OL Discussion

Sun Oct 13, 2019 7:01 pm

I was glad to see Long to IR for a few reasons. He should be given the chance to heal up and has shown a willingness to take a pay cut. He is a leader of the team and just flat out cutting him would cause further issues. Also...i hope he comes back like a beast!
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Re: OL Discussion

Mon Oct 14, 2019 12:38 am

I blame Pace. You build a good team from the inside out and Kyle Long's health and play going downhill didn't happen overnight.

We wasted our first pick, our third rounder, on a running back. Even if we did have a great offensive line, did anyone think that Jordan Howard was the prime reason for our team not performing at the next level? He sure looks good in Philly. How much of an upgrade (if at all) is Montgomery? Oline would've been the call in the 3rd round.
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Re: OL Discussion

Mon Oct 14, 2019 4:44 am

Wounded Bear wrote:
Mon Oct 14, 2019 12:38 am
I blame Pace. You build a good team from the inside out and Kyle Long's health and play going downhill didn't happen overnight.

We wasted our first pick, our third rounder, on a running back. Even if we did have a great offensive line, did anyone think that Jordan Howard was the prime reason for our team not performing at the next level? He sure looks good in Philly. How much of an upgrade (if at all) is Montgomery? Oline would've been the call in the 3rd round.
I find it almost impossible to disagree with any of this and I like Montgomery.

I'm not defending, only regurgitating the idea, that Howard didn't fit the mold of the offense they wanted. Again, I'm not defending trading him. At a minimum he could've been a backup had they drafted somebody.
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Re: OL Discussion

Mon Oct 14, 2019 8:44 am

The Marshall Plan wrote:
Mon Oct 14, 2019 4:44 am
Wounded Bear wrote:
Mon Oct 14, 2019 12:38 am
I blame Pace. You build a good team from the inside out and Kyle Long's health and play going downhill didn't happen overnight.

We wasted our first pick, our third rounder, on a running back. Even if we did have a great offensive line, did anyone think that Jordan Howard was the prime reason for our team not performing at the next level? He sure looks good in Philly. How much of an upgrade (if at all) is Montgomery? Oline would've been the call in the 3rd round.
I find it almost impossible to disagree with any of this and I like Montgomery.

I'm not defending, only regurgitating the idea, that Howard didn't fit the mold of the offense they wanted. Again, I'm not defending trading him. At a minimum he could've been a backup had they drafted somebody.
I find it very easy to disagree with most of this.

a) Pace did see Long's play going downhill. Long was forced to renegotiate his contract this spring to take a paycut, money that was used to sign Ted Larsen, a quality veteran backup. The terms of the new contract gave Long the chance to prove he was back this year and return to his original deal or else make it very inexpensive to cut him before 2020.

b) It's too early to say Montgomery was a bad pick, in fact I think he was a great pick. Right now his struggles result from our Oline's poor showing and his rookie tendency to try to do too much every play. Time will tell. I do agree with you that a good team needs a solid Oline, but it seems to me that Pace has done well keeping what should be a solid starting unit together while also keeping the pipeline full of up and comers. Was there an offensive lineman available in the third round who you thought could come in and start right away? If not, they would have had trouble making the team.

c) It wasn't Howard's running ability that made him a bad fit for Nagy, it was his difficulty in the passing game. We've already seen Montgomery make some great catches downfield, did we ever see that from Howard? Yes, Howard could have been kept around for obvious running situations, but the problem with that is he doesn't play special teams. You can't keep too many backups that don't help in other situations. Instead Pace went out and signed Mike Davis who can not only fill the obvious running situation role, but also contribute in special teams. If we had kept Howard this year and then let him go in free agency we might have gotten as much as a fourth round compensatory pick for him. By trading him a year early we got a fifth or sixth round pick and a special teams contributor in Davis.
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wab
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Re: OL Discussion

Mon Oct 14, 2019 9:49 am

Howard got traded because he wasn't an ideal fit, but more than that - he was on the last year of his rookie contract. It's not super complicated.
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Re: OL Discussion

Mon Oct 14, 2019 9:57 am

ramentaschen wrote:
Sun Oct 13, 2019 6:00 pm
I can understand that Long is struggling because of injuries, Daniels is adjusting to being an NFL center but what's going on with Leno? I thought he was rated highly last year?
Daniels will be a better player now that he's not next to Long.

Leno is getting exposed a little now that the NFL is focusing on holding and hands to the face. Those are two things Leno has always done even if it's subtle.

If you watch him in pass pro, he rides the defender around the pocket by sort of steering him with one arm around the defenders waist. If Leno's head isn't across the front of the defenders body, that's a hold.

In run blocking, his hands slip up to the bottom of the facemask right at the time the back is hitting the hole. He does it so the defender can't see where the hole is. It's nit-picky and it's not a true "hands to the face" but it's getting called now.

All linemen do this, they are legal blocking techniques that are effective if executed properly, but Leno is playing sloppy and getting called for it.
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Re: OL Discussion

Mon Oct 14, 2019 10:46 am

Mr.Irrelevant wrote:
Mon Oct 14, 2019 8:44 am
The Marshall Plan wrote:
Mon Oct 14, 2019 4:44 am


I find it almost impossible to disagree with any of this and I like Montgomery.

I'm not defending, only regurgitating the idea, that Howard didn't fit the mold of the offense they wanted. Again, I'm not defending trading him. At a minimum he could've been a backup had they drafted somebody.
I find it very easy to disagree with most of this.
I'm confused by this, so let me address your points one by one and maybe you can set me straight....
Mr.Irrelevant wrote:
Mon Oct 14, 2019 8:44 am
a) Pace did see Long's play going downhill. Long was forced to renegotiate his contract this spring to take a paycut, money that was used to sign Ted Larsen, a quality veteran backup. The terms of the new contract gave Long the chance to prove he was back this year and return to his original deal or else make it very inexpensive to cut him before 2020
Why now would you or Pace believe that Kyle Long is suddenly going to return to form after being injured for many years. 2016 - he plays 8 games. 2017 - he plays 10 games. 2018 - he plays 8 games. Meanwhile during this period, his play is declining.

What trend is Pace looking at to think that Kyle Long is going to play well in 2019? Why would Ted Larsen, an aged veteran who has been playing backup for years, be a good solution to get your Oline playing any better than it has been playing currently?

That's why I said perhaps drafting a potential replacement would have been a good move because if your Oline is good, typically your QB plays better, therefore your receivers look better, and your running back play is better.
Mr.Irrelevant wrote:
Mon Oct 14, 2019 8:44 am
b) It's too early to say Montgomery was a bad pick, in fact I think he was a great pick. Right now his struggles result from our Oline's poor showing and his rookie tendency to try to do too much every play. Time will tell. I do agree with you that a good team needs a solid Oline, but it seems to me that Pace has done well keeping what should be a solid starting unit together while also keeping the pipeline full of up and comers. Was there an offensive lineman available in the third round who you thought could come in and start right away? If not, they would have had trouble making the team.
I'm not saying Montgomery is a bad running back, I'm just saying that your build your foundation before you build your house. So you fix your offensive line before you address your running back situation.

And yes, during the draft there was good talent that we could have drafted to address the offensive line issues. There was a wide array of offensive line talent who would have eventually replaced Long. Round three still has very good talent.

Could they have come in immediately? I don't know, but why postpone building the foundation of your team? So are you saying we should have drafted Montgomery because he could play immediately? Yet you just admitted that he isn't playing well because the offensive line is playing poorly. So what good is it that he can play immediately if he is going to play poorly because your offensive line sucks. It's a bit of a Catch-22, would you agree?
Mr.Irrelevant wrote:
Mon Oct 14, 2019 8:44 am
c) It wasn't Howard's running ability that made him a bad fit for Nagy, it was his difficulty in the passing game. We've already seen Montgomery make some great catches downfield, did we ever see that from Howard? Yes, Howard could have been kept around for obvious running situations, but the problem with that is he doesn't play special teams. You can't keep too many backups that don't help in other situations. Instead Pace went out and signed Mike Davis who can not only fill the obvious running situation role, but also contribute in special teams. If we had kept Howard this year and then let him go in free agency we might have gotten as much as a fourth round compensatory pick for him. By trading him a year early we got a fifth or sixth round pick and a special teams contributor in Davis.
To me, the "Jordan Howard can't catch" argument is bullshit. I'll admit his rookie season, he looked like shit and dropped some real easy passes. One, I recall, would have won us the game,. So I agree there were some real high profile fuck ups his rookie season, but in 2017 and 2018 his catching improved immensely and you could tell he worked hard on improving that aspect of his game.

Now is he the second coming of Kareem Hunt? Or a David Montgomery? No. That's not him. But he looks just fine catching the ball out of the backfield.

My point is, we would have been far better off addressing the offensive line and had Jordan Howard, who is a damn fine running back , running for us instead of jettisoning him off to Philly for a paltry 6th round pick and then using our first pick (and giving up another pick to trade up) in last year's draft on a running back when we have offensive line problems, which hurts every aspect of our offensive production.

Let's not forget Jordan Howard was a 1300 yard rusher his rookie year, over a 1000 his sophomore season, and damn near a 1000 last year (and that's with Nagy playing him sparingly).
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Re: OL Discussion

Mon Oct 14, 2019 11:06 am

wab wrote:
Mon Oct 14, 2019 9:49 am
Howard got traded because he wasn't an ideal fit, but more than that - he was on the last year of his rookie contract. It's not super complicated.
Yeah, I understand that. But it's all about priorities. I just personally believe Kyle Long was the priority in the list of problems rather than Jordan Howard.

I think our offensive line performance this year supports that belief.

Sure we drafted a badass running back, but his production sucks because he's running into a brick wall.
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Re: OL Discussion

Mon Oct 14, 2019 11:10 am

Wounded Bear wrote:
Mon Oct 14, 2019 10:46 am
Let's not forget Jordan Howard was a 1300 yard rusher his rookie year, over a 1000 his sophomore season, and damn near a 1000 last year (and that's with Nagy playing him sparingly).
As @wab points out above, Howard was also entering the last year of his rookie deal. If you don't plan to pay him, finding a replacement is paramount.

When the Bears moved up for Montgomery, nearly all of the offensive linemen I'd have been interested in them drafting were off the board.

Moreover, it's not as though Ryan Pace has ignored the offensive line in his drafts the same way his predecessors did.
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wab
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Re: OL Discussion

Mon Oct 14, 2019 11:51 am

When the Bears moved up for Montgomery, nearly all of the offensive linemen I'd have been interested in them drafting were off the board.
There were some pretty good OL prospects drafted after the Bears picked in R3 and through R4.

I don't disagree with the Montgomery pick, but there were players on the board.

Still, none of this will matter if Bars develops and turns into a solid replacement for Long.

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