Pagano on Quinn

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dplank
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Pagano on Quinn

Fri Jun 19, 2020 9:47 am

https://chicago.suntimes.com/bears/2020 ... -4-defense

I did not get a warm/fuzzy that he's going to be playing DE and am very worried he may not be lining up hand down as we all had hoped. Pagano talks a lot about him having a tough transition to 3/4 OLB in front of him.

My distaste for Pagano is legendary, I just don't think he puts his players in the best position to maximize their talents, and instead favors trickery and "his scheme" above all. This sounds a little like that to me, but until they line up we just won't know. So I'm not making any assertive statements here, just noting a concern based on this article.

Yogi, you might not want to read this article. You won't be pleased.
Chuck Pagano's defensive rankings in 6 years with Indy: 26th, 20th, 11th, 26th, 30th, and 30th.
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Re: Pagano on Quinn

Fri Jun 19, 2020 10:00 am

Bears gonna Bear.
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Re: Pagano on Quinn

Fri Jun 19, 2020 1:12 pm

**Looks at Robert Mathis, career DE until Pagano arrived in 2012**

Moved to OLB - 8 sacks, Pro Bowl

2013: 19.5 sacks, 10 forced fumbles, Pro Bowler and 1st team All Pro


He's going to play from a two point stance from time to time, but you bet your ass when we are in sub packages he'll be at RDE and rushing with his hand on the ground.
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First 41 starts:

Drew Brees: 61.2% | 8261 yards | 52 TDs | 37 INTs | 6.60 YPA | 82.2

Mitch Trubisky: 63.4% | 8554 yards | 48 TDs | 29 INTs | 6.7 YPA | 85.8
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Re: Pagano on Quinn

Fri Jun 19, 2020 1:40 pm

Dplank - you might be reading too much into this (at least at this stage)

Though I share your concerns about Pagano generally
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dplank
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Re: Pagano on Quinn

Fri Jun 19, 2020 2:00 pm

RichH55 wrote:
Fri Jun 19, 2020 1:40 pm
Dplank - you might be reading too much into this (at least at this stage)

Though I share your concerns about Pagano generally
Yea, was just sharing it really, like I said I'm not drawing assertive conclusions from it or anything. I generally don't like the idea of signing a big money free agent and immediately saying "he's going to have a tough position change ahead of him". When you sign big money guys, you don't do that IMO. Those types of guys should be "plug and play".
Chuck Pagano's defensive rankings in 6 years with Indy: 26th, 20th, 11th, 26th, 30th, and 30th.
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Yogi da Bear
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Re: Pagano on Quinn

Fri Jun 19, 2020 2:11 pm

dplank wrote:
Fri Jun 19, 2020 9:47 am
I did not get a warm/fuzzy that he's going to be playing DE and am very worried he may not be lining up hand down as we all had hoped. Pagano talks a lot about him having a tough transition to 3/4 OLB in front of him.

My distaste for Pagano is legendary, I just don't think he puts his players in the best position to maximize their talents, and instead favors trickery and "his scheme" above all. This sounds a little like that to me, but until they line up we just won't know. So I'm not making any assertive statements here, just noting a concern based on this article.

Yogi, you might not want to read this article. You won't be pleased.
Oh, I don't know about that (reading between the lines, or just eliminating them lol):
Quinn had 8.5 sacks as an outside linebacker with the Rams in 2017 but made it clear that’s not his comfort zone, once calling the 3-4 experience “suffocating....”

“He wasn’t under contract at the time and it took a long time — a lot of film, a lot of dialogue to get him to say, ‘OK, I’m in. I can handle that job description.’ So there’s definitely some hurdles to get over. But we’ll do the right thing for Robert. It’s going to be on myself and our staff to put all our players in the best possible position to be successful, so we’ll be smart about that.”
It should be noted that when Mathis played OLB for the Colts, they didn't have anybody else really.

Yeah in 2012, his first year at OLB, they also had Freeney at OLB, but guess what? Freeney only had five sacks that year to Mathis' 8. In 2013 when he had 19.5 sacks, the next closest to him was Jerrell Freeman, the other OLB, with only 5.5. 2014, he was hurt. In 2015, he had 7 sacks, and Kendall Langford, a DE, also had 7. Freeman, the other OLB, dipped to 3. In 2015, he had only 5 sacks and the other OLB, Erik Walden had 11.

We have the premier OLB in the league with Khalil Mack. Quinn is a top flight pass rushing DE in the league who hates playing standing up, talks about how it severely limits him, and his stats show that.

Again, if you play both Mack and Quinn at OLB, if you want to send them both, you're blitzing. Does anybody think that 13 sacks BETWEEN Mack and Quinn would be a success (the amount that Freeney and Mathis had when they were both OLB) or 16 sacks (the amount that Mathis and Walden had as OLBs in his last year)? Or would 5.5 sacks for Quinn be okay (the amount that Freeman had as OLB when Mathis had 19.5)?

If the Bears are "going to be smart about it" and "put Quinn in the "best position to be successful," they're going to play him with his hand in the dirt. If Quinn and Mack are both in the game together, I want them BOTH rushing the passer consistently. The only real way to do that without blitzing is to have one play as a down DE and the other as an OLB (or also a down DE). IF you have either Quinn or Mack dropping into coverage, you're losing.
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Re: Pagano on Quinn

Fri Jun 19, 2020 3:27 pm

I don't think Quinn blindly signed here. He knows and approved whatever the plan is. If you're a good football player, you will be good.
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Re: Pagano on Quinn

Fri Jun 19, 2020 3:37 pm

What Pagano did with the D in 2019 was more impressive than what Fangio did in 2018.
Year 3 Starting (updated yearly)

Brees (11-4): 65.5% (7th) 7.9 Y/A (7th) 27 TD (7th) 6.8 TD% (4th) 7 INT 1.8 INT% (3rd) 104 Rating (3rd)

Trubisky (8-7): 63.2% (18th) 6.1 Y/A (32nd) 17 TD (27th) 3.3 TD% (30th) 10 INT 1.9 INT% (15th) 83 Rating (28th)
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Re: Pagano on Quinn

Fri Jun 19, 2020 3:43 pm

Richie wrote:
Fri Jun 19, 2020 3:37 pm
What Pagano did with the D in 2019 was more impressive than what Fangio did in 2018.
I'm not sure if it's logically possible for me to disagree stronger with a post than this one. Our defense fell back roughly 40% from 2018 levels. And 2018 was an historic defensive season for us, literally a historically great season for a defense. Fangio was/is a master. :?
Chuck Pagano's defensive rankings in 6 years with Indy: 26th, 20th, 11th, 26th, 30th, and 30th.
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Re: Pagano on Quinn

Fri Jun 19, 2020 3:47 pm

I don't put anything into what any coaches say at this point. It is all about blowing smoke up everyone's ass in attempt to throw them off. The play will determine what happens, not words in June.
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Re: Pagano on Quinn

Fri Jun 19, 2020 4:44 pm

dplank wrote:
Fri Jun 19, 2020 3:43 pm
Richie wrote:
Fri Jun 19, 2020 3:37 pm
What Pagano did with the D in 2019 was more impressive than what Fangio did in 2018.
I'm not sure if it's logically possible for me to disagree stronger with a post than this one. Our defense fell back roughly 40% from 2018 levels. And 2018 was an historic defensive season for us, literally a historically great season for a defense. Fangio was/is a master. :?
Uh. It went from 1st to 4th in points allowed. They gave up a mere 15 points more.

This despite losing Akiem Hicks, Danny Trevathan, and Roquan Smith to IR. This after the departure of PFF all-pro safety Adrian Amos and replacing him with a much less effective HHCD. This with Mack's presence being hindered after Hicks departure.

They lost 3 of their 5 best players for the season. Including perhaps their most important player in Hicks (certainly top 2).

Furthermore, this is despite an all out catastrophe of a season by the offense. The D was CONSTANTLY on the field and CONSTANTLY put in bad spots. NEVER ONCE, NOT ONCE did they give in when it would have been so easy to do so. Most defense's (even good ones) would have caved with the failure occurring on the other side of the ball and morale being so low around the team.

All of the adversity against that unit and they STILL played at an elite level. A top 5 level in points and yards per play allowed. I was easily more proud of the D last year than I was in 2018.

Pagano deserves a lot of praise for that. It's easy to coach defense when you have a unit with the talent of the 2018 unit. With everything going right all over the place. Health, offense playing solidly, etc. Who wouldn't have had that unit thriving? Not to mention, I'm not exactly sure what was historic about it.

Vic never had so much as a top 10 unit here before 2018. There's nothing to suggest he would have had last year's unit finishing as strong as Pagano. Nothing. When injuries mounted in 15, 16, and 17 under Vic? The D plummeted.

Pagano is widely considered one of the best around for a reason. He proved it last year and then some.

Quite frankly, I don't see much of an argument to the contrary.

Vic took a talented Denver defense from 13th to 10th in scoring. What is that? 4 out of 5 seasons with Vic finishing 10th or worse? He's had one elite D since SF.
Year 3 Starting (updated yearly)

Brees (11-4): 65.5% (7th) 7.9 Y/A (7th) 27 TD (7th) 6.8 TD% (4th) 7 INT 1.8 INT% (3rd) 104 Rating (3rd)

Trubisky (8-7): 63.2% (18th) 6.1 Y/A (32nd) 17 TD (27th) 3.3 TD% (30th) 10 INT 1.9 INT% (15th) 83 Rating (28th)
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dplank
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Re: Pagano on Quinn

Fri Jun 19, 2020 6:00 pm

Trevathan and Roquan went out later, after our season was effectively over. Hicks is his only excuse. Pagano is so overrated it’s not even funny, just read my sig for all the proof you need.

Vic presided over the best defense since 85. The main indicator of W/L in today’s game is turnover margin. Milk toast Pagano watched our turnovers and sacks plummet like the stock market on black Monday. We regressed across the board. Our defense carried us in 2018, setting the offense up repeatedly - our offense was not churning out long drives. That did not happen last year under Chuck. He played SOFT, bend don’t break crap, and gave up lots of long drives. The Raiders game was typical.

You’re welcome to your opinion, I just couldn’t disagree with it any more than I do.
Chuck Pagano's defensive rankings in 6 years with Indy: 26th, 20th, 11th, 26th, 30th, and 30th.
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Re: Pagano on Quinn

Fri Jun 19, 2020 7:10 pm

Richie wrote:
Fri Jun 19, 2020 4:44 pm
Vic never had so much as a top 10 unit here before 2018. There's nothing to suggest he would have had last year's unit finishing as strong as Pagano. Nothing. When injuries mounted in 15, 16, and 17 under Vic? The D plummeted.

Pagano is widely considered one of the best around for a reason. He proved it last year and then some.

Quite frankly, I don't see much of an argument to the contrary.

Vic took a talented Denver defense from 13th to 10th in scoring. What is that? 4 out of 5 seasons with Vic finishing 10th or worse? He's had one elite D since SF.
Pagano inherited the number one defense in the NFL when he joined the Bears. Fangio inherited the worst defense in franchise history when he joined the Bears.

Tucker
2013: 31st Points, 30th Yards
2014: 30th Points, 30th Yards

Fangio
2015: 20th Points, 14th Yards
2016: 24th Points, 15th Yards
2017: 8th Points, 10th Yards
2018: 1st Points, 3rd Yards

Fangio built the Bears defense up from scratch.

In his four years in San Francisco his defense was top 10 in points allowed every year, including top 5 three times, and was top 5 in yardage every year. In his first year in Denver his defense went from 13th to 10th in points and jumped 22nd to 12th in yards allowed and that was despite losing Bradley Chubb, who had 12 sacks in 2018, just 4 games into the season.

You say Fangio had 4 out of 5 seasons where his defense finished 10th or worse in points allowed. That's some spin. I'd note that Fangio's defenses have finished in the top 10 in points allowed in 7 out of the last 9 seasons and top 5 four times.

Laud Pagano all you want, I thought did a good job last season, but in doing so please don't disrespect Vic Fangio who has been consistently brilliant and did a heck of a lot for the Bears.
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Re: Pagano on Quinn

Fri Jun 19, 2020 7:28 pm

'Pagano is widely considered one of the best around for a reason. He proved it last year and then some.

Quite frankly, I don't see much of an argument to the contrary."

Then you aren't looking very hard
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Re: Pagano on Quinn

Fri Jun 19, 2020 10:51 pm

HisRoyalSweetness wrote:
Fri Jun 19, 2020 7:10 pm
Richie wrote:
Fri Jun 19, 2020 4:44 pm
Vic never had so much as a top 10 unit here before 2018. There's nothing to suggest he would have had last year's unit finishing as strong as Pagano. Nothing. When injuries mounted in 15, 16, and 17 under Vic? The D plummeted.

Pagano is widely considered one of the best around for a reason. He proved it last year and then some.

Quite frankly, I don't see much of an argument to the contrary.

Vic took a talented Denver defense from 13th to 10th in scoring. What is that? 4 out of 5 seasons with Vic finishing 10th or worse? He's had one elite D since SF.
Pagano inherited the number one defense in the NFL when he joined the Bears. Fangio inherited the worst defense in franchise history when he joined the Bears.

Tucker
2013: 31st Points, 30th Yards
2014: 30th Points, 30th Yards

Fangio
2015: 20th Points, 14th Yards
2016: 24th Points, 15th Yards
2017: 8th Points, 10th Yards
2018: 1st Points, 3rd Yards

Fangio built the Bears defense up from scratch.

In his four years in San Francisco his defense was top 10 in points allowed every year, including top 5 three times, and was top 5 in yardage every year. In his first year in Denver his defense went from 13th to 10th in points and jumped 22nd to 12th in yards allowed and that was despite losing Bradley Chubb, who had 12 sacks in 2018, just 4 games into the season.

You say Fangio had 4 out of 5 seasons where his defense finished 10th or worse in points allowed. That's some spin. I'd note that Fangio's defenses have finished in the top 10 in points allowed in 7 out of the last 9 seasons and top 5 four times.

Laud Pagano all you want, I thought did a good job last season, but in doing so please don't disrespect Vic Fangio who has been consistently brilliant and did a heck of a lot for the Bears.
I don't think it's a spin, at all. I think it's simply pointing out that Vic has only had a D as good as the one Pagano produced last season on ONE occasion since SF. The improvement of the D in Denver was quite marginal.

I think Vic has had a fantastic career. I also think the D during his tenure here performed accordingly with its personnel. Not worse and not better. When the personnel was poor like in 15/16... the D was poor. When it was "good" like in 17... it was "good". When it was "great" like in 18... it was "great".

Vic built the D from scratch? I mean, that's debatable. Ryan Pace built the personnel. The D didn't perform until it had the parts in place. Again, Vic is a really good defensive coach and he was a part of the success. However, I'm a bit sick of people acting like he worked a magic trick here. It took him 4 years to field an elite D. The D was flooded with pro bowl caliber personnel. Personnel that is still great without him. It didn't exactly require rocket science.

I don't know if Pagano is "better". However, there is absolutely NOTHING to suggest he is "worse".

If I'm speaking in hyperbole, it's only because I am REAL sick of the hard headed people here banging their head against the wall over him and not looking at the full scope of what transpired last year. In 2018, Vic and that D could COAST. In 2019, Chuck and that D had to scrape, claw, fight for everything they got. Still were DAMN good. That's really impressive.

I hold no respect for the anti-Pagano nonsense. It literally does not compute in my brain. Someone needs to explain how it makes sense.
Year 3 Starting (updated yearly)

Brees (11-4): 65.5% (7th) 7.9 Y/A (7th) 27 TD (7th) 6.8 TD% (4th) 7 INT 1.8 INT% (3rd) 104 Rating (3rd)

Trubisky (8-7): 63.2% (18th) 6.1 Y/A (32nd) 17 TD (27th) 3.3 TD% (30th) 10 INT 1.9 INT% (15th) 83 Rating (28th)
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Re: Pagano on Quinn

Fri Jun 19, 2020 10:52 pm

RichH55 wrote:
Fri Jun 19, 2020 7:28 pm
'Pagano is widely considered one of the best around for a reason. He proved it last year and then some.

Quite frankly, I don't see much of an argument to the contrary."

Then you aren't looking very hard
Great argument.

"DEERRRRRRR.... DEY WAS LIKE ONE OF DA BEST OF MANY YEARS IN 18. THEN IN 19 DEY WAS JUST NORMAL GOOD."

Brilliant.

The dominance and turnover rate in 2018 was TOTALLY sustainable. It's SUPER realistic that it would keep up. Especially losing Hicks, Trevathan, and Roquan. With an all-out catastrophe transpiring on the other side of the ball.

Unthinkable that they could surrender 15 more points than the year prior and have it mean anything else besides "Pagano is incompetent".
Year 3 Starting (updated yearly)

Brees (11-4): 65.5% (7th) 7.9 Y/A (7th) 27 TD (7th) 6.8 TD% (4th) 7 INT 1.8 INT% (3rd) 104 Rating (3rd)

Trubisky (8-7): 63.2% (18th) 6.1 Y/A (32nd) 17 TD (27th) 3.3 TD% (30th) 10 INT 1.9 INT% (15th) 83 Rating (28th)
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dplank
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Re: Pagano on Quinn

Sat Jun 20, 2020 8:54 am

The only two times Pagano has produced a top 10 defense in his entire career were years immediately after taking over someone else’s GREAT defense after that DC was promoted. Once in Baltimore then here. His record in Indy was awful, he had a soft team there after 6 years to get it right, and they finished 30th and 30th his last two seasons. So after his influence was fully intact there, they were one of the worst defenses in the league- back to back years, then he was mercifully fired.

Pagano stood on the shoulders of other great coaches and rode their defenses to short term success. Vic creates something special from scratch, here and in SF. Great post HRH btw....Roquan was hurt the last 3 and a half games man, not an excuse. And Vic dealt the tons of injuries in his time here, including Mack for about a month (2 games missed and 2 that he shouldn’t have played he was so hobbled). Hicks injury definitely hurt us, and the team never quit, those points are in your favor. PPG delta is also in your favor, but I think the bend don’t break Gameplan played a part in that - we shortened games and had less possessions. TOP is both your offenses ability to stay on the field, and your defenses ability to get off it. Again, I’m not saying we went from all time great to hot garbage overnight, we have too much talent for that. I just think he’s taking us that direction.

Pagano is one of the most genuinely nice people you’ll ever meet, I personally like him a lot. His record is awful though. He took the teeth out of our defense last year, Vic always had us playing with an edge. I miss Vic a lot.
Last edited by dplank on Sat Jun 20, 2020 9:01 am, edited 1 time in total.
Chuck Pagano's defensive rankings in 6 years with Indy: 26th, 20th, 11th, 26th, 30th, and 30th.
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Re: Pagano on Quinn

Sat Jun 20, 2020 8:59 am

Richie wrote:
Fri Jun 19, 2020 10:52 pm
RichH55 wrote:
Fri Jun 19, 2020 7:28 pm
'Pagano is widely considered one of the best around for a reason. He proved it last year and then some.

Quite frankly, I don't see much of an argument to the contrary."

Then you aren't looking very hard
Great argument.

"DEERRRRRRR.... DEY WAS LIKE ONE OF DA BEST OF MANY YEARS IN 18. THEN IN 19 DEY WAS JUST NORMAL GOOD."

Brilliant.

The dominance and turnover rate in 2018 was TOTALLY sustainable. It's SUPER realistic that it would keep up. Especially losing Hicks, Trevathan, and Roquan. With an all-out catastrophe transpiring on the other side of the ball.

Unthinkable that they could surrender 15 more points than the year prior and have it mean anything else besides "Pagano is incompetent".

So even in the Pagano homer post - you note we took a step backwards essentially across the Board?

Expecting a dominant Defense to stay dominant - unsustainable - Got it.
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Re: Pagano on Quinn

Sat Jun 20, 2020 9:41 am

DVOA fell from #1 to #8
2018: https://www.footballoutsiders.com/dvoa- ... oa-ratings

2019: https://www.footballoutsiders.com/dvoa- ... oa-ratings


Also why isn't they Fell from the Best to merely Good a compelling argument - at least on its face - when there was a Coaching Change and you are seeking - in part - to see what effect that Coaching change had?

It doesn't seem like you responded to Dplanks points about the Colts defense being quite iffy under Pagano for a decent chunk of time.

And I even agree with your point that the Turnover numbers (Not so much the dominance) was unsustainable. (I think your injury point is overstated -especially with the quality of play of the Backup ILB - Kwit was not a negative)

Do we want to give credit there to Pagano? Ok.
(Though have to note that Mack played worse* and Floyd was iffy (as per usual)

*I'm not even sure Mack played worse - it still seemed like opposing offenses devoted crazy amounts of resources to stopping him - We just didn't seem to have a Countermove to that obvious move


But it's not particularly meathead to note: Yeah, the Defense was clearly worse in 2019 than 2018
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Re: Pagano on Quinn

Sat Jun 20, 2020 9:51 am

Good post Rich. Mack wasn’t the only one either, both Mack and EJax had their worst career years outside of rookie campaigns. Goldman regressed too. Roquan regressed. Great point on Kwit, we didn’t miss a beat when Danny went out. Roquan and EJax both had assignment changes under Pagano, they’ve been written about extensively so I don’t want to belabor the point, but playing EJax in the box and having HHCD roaming center field was as moronic as blitzing corners while dropping Mack into coverage. Don’t try and trick people, just line up your superior athletes and let them win at what they do best. These things mattered. Our QB pressure fell off a cliff, so it’s no surprise turn overs plummeted.

And it’s why this Quinn comment has me concerned, Pagano has done it before.
Chuck Pagano's defensive rankings in 6 years with Indy: 26th, 20th, 11th, 26th, 30th, and 30th.
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Yogi da Bear
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Re: Pagano on Quinn

Sat Jun 20, 2020 2:47 pm

dplank wrote:
Fri Jun 19, 2020 6:00 pm
Vic presided over the best defense since 85. The main indicator of W/L in today’s game is turnover margin. Milk toast Pagano watched our turnovers and sacks plummet like the stock market on black Monday. We regressed across the board.
In all fairness, the loss of Hicks can't be UNDERESTIMATED enough. Through five games last year (with Hicks only playing 8 snaps against Oakland), the Bears had 10 turnovers and 17 sacks (none in the Hicks deprived Raider game). Four and a half of Mack's 8.5 sacks came in those first four Hicks Games. That is close to being on par with 2019's 36 (32 estimated for 2019) turnovers and is actually above board on 2019's 51 sacks (54.4 estimated in 2019 even considering the Hicks shortened Raider game).

But Hicks' absence was more than just that, it was also the demise of our run defense. Before Hicks went out, nobody got more than 90 yards rushing against us. In fact, we had two of four sub fifty yard rushing games and a 60 yard rushing game. After Hicks went out, the Raiders gouged us for 169, the Saints for 151, the Eagles for 146, and the Vikings for 174. In fact, 9 of 12 games without Hicks (including Oakland) opposing offenses gained more than 100 yards. That has to cost in TOP.

But it also wasn't Hicks alone. Bilal Nichols was hampered all year with a broken hands. So the one guy who might have been able to at least partially fill Hicks' shoes was playing injured. I think you have to realize the affect that Hicks' injury had on our defense and not put it all on Pagano's shoulders.
Our defense carried us in 2018, setting the offense up repeatedly - our offense was not churning out long drives. That did not happen last year under Chuck. He played SOFT, bend don’t break crap, and gave up lots of long drives. The Raiders game was typical.
The Raider game was when we lost Hicks early. They ran it down our throats. Don't forget Fangio's prevent crap either. Remember the Packers first game, the Dolphins, the Giants, the Eagles.... Not to mention games we won were they came back. In 2018 I was screaming at Fangio's Prevent Defense--"Yeah, you're preventing us from winning."

Just thought I'd keep things in perspective.
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Re: Pagano on Quinn

Sat Jun 20, 2020 3:14 pm

Yea very fair Yogi, on both Hicks and Vics prevent shit. Hicks is a crucial, crucial piece for us. It’s really the one thing I cling to for hope, cause I just don’t like Paganos soft defenses at all. I’m hoping our talent is so great that they overcome it and Hicks return will make it all click again.
Chuck Pagano's defensive rankings in 6 years with Indy: 26th, 20th, 11th, 26th, 30th, and 30th.
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Yogi da Bear
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Re: Pagano on Quinn

Sat Jun 20, 2020 3:20 pm

I think it's more than that too. Don't underestimate that injury to Bilal. He wasn't near the player in '19 as he was in '18.
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Re: Pagano on Quinn

Sat Jun 20, 2020 5:03 pm

As to Pagano's Indy Defense, All the Colts did is draft Offensive players leaving the Defensive cupboard bare and the expected Pagano to make a great full course meal out of chicken shit. So I do NOT hold the Indy Defense against him.

Just watch and be delighted.
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Re: Pagano on Quinn

Sat Jun 20, 2020 5:20 pm

dplank wrote:
Fri Jun 19, 2020 6:00 pm
Trevathan and Roquan went out later, after our season was effectively over. Hicks is his only excuse. Pagano is so overrated it’s not even funny, just read my sig for all the proof you need.

Vic presided over the best defense since 85. The main indicator of W/L in today’s game is turnover margin. Milk toast Pagano watched our turnovers and sacks plummet like the stock market on black Monday. We regressed across the board. Our defense carried us in 2018, setting the offense up repeatedly - our offense was not churning out long drives. That did not happen last year under Chuck. He played SOFT, bend don’t break crap, and gave up lots of long drives. The Raiders game was typical.

You’re welcome to your opinion, I just couldn’t disagree with it any more than I do.
You’re welcome to your opinion, I just couldn’t disagree with it any more than I do.
You don't even hold an opinion on this issue. You hold an emotional reaction.

What you are saying makes absolutely no sense. Pagano's D was better than Vic's in 3 of his 4 seasons here.

I don't think you have an any legitimate basis for your "reaction".
Trevathan and Roquan went out later, after our season was effectively over.
What? Trevathan went out in Week 9 - smack in the middle of the season. Roquan went out with 4 games left. lol. You are literally lying to boost your position. The Bears were alive when both guys went down.

Pagano also lost Amos. Funny how you also conveniently dismiss what having an offense like the Bears in 19 does to a defense. The spots it puts them in and how mentally exhausting it had to be to continue playing at a high level in the face of utter hopelessness. Green Bay, Denver, LAR, PHI, etc. How many games last year did our D keep us in and give us a shot? It would have been so easy to give in. Most D's would have.

That's more impressive than Vic in 2018. I have no idea how Pagano kept that D performing.

Hicks is his only excuse? Oh, wow. Yeah, even if true, only the key to the entire unit. Not to mention, he does not need an excuse. The D was great in a horrible spot.
He played SOFT, bend don’t break crap, and gave up lots of long drives. The Raiders game was typical.
Oh, you mean the game when our best defensive player got hurt? lol

You mean the game where Chase Daniel and the offense had like two first downs in the first half. Gave Oakland the ball in our red zone after a Daniel INT? That game? Still hung around and gave us a chance to win? Forced a huge turnover in the red zone to maintain the lead? That game?

Remember when Chase Daniel started with Vic at the helm in 18 vs a putrid NYG team? How did the D fair that day? Were they "soft" vs Saquon and company? Come on. Tell us all about it.

Tell us all about that game in Miami when we let Brock F'ING Osweiler throw all over us and lead quick strike TD drives to tie/take the lead every time we took hold of the game.

Hey, how about that long drive by Philly before the double doink? Let's keep going with this anecdotal evidence. I'm enjoying it.
He played SOFT, bend don’t break crap, and gave up lots of long drives.
Pagano's defensive style/philosophy is not soft. I have no idea what you are talking about. Can you qualify this statement?
We regressed across the board.
No sssshhhiiiiiitttt dude.

Look at how absurd the turnover numbers were in 2018. They were going to regress. That's not sustainable. ESPECIALLY WHEN YOU LOSE HICKS, ROQUAN, TREVATHAN, AND AMOS. ESPECIALLY WHEN YOUR OFFENSE IS A CIRCUS ACT.

It's like if a baseball player hits 6 HR's in one week and then he hits 3 HR's the next week. Would you complain that "HE REGRESSED!"? No, that's utterly absurd. You can't hit a home run every day.
Vic presided over the best defense since 85. The main indicator of W/L in today’s game is turnover margin.
Please, qualify both statements, right now. I don't believe that either are accurate.

The Chiefs had the 7th best turnover differential. Tied with the 8-8 Steelers. The terrible Washington Redskins had a better margin than the playoff teams such as the Houston Texans and Philadelphia Eagles.

The best indicator for W/L is point differential. The 2005 D had better numbers than 18.

Turnover rate is important, sure. However, the Bears turnover rate was only ever good under Vic for one season. Not to mention, we've already been over reasons why you crediting Vic for that rate while blaming Pagano is total BS.
Pagano is so overrated it’s not even funny, just read my sig for all the proof you need.
Chuck Pagano's defensive rankings in 5 years with Indy: 26th, 20th, 11th, 26th, 30th, and 30th.

Lol. Really dude? You sure do ADORE these raw numbers void of any context. Speaking of "voids". How about the VOID of defensive talent that Pagano had to deal with in Indy?

Here, let me try!

Vic Fangio scoring D standing in 4 years as Bears DC:

20th, 24th, 9th, 1st

Chuck Pagano scoring D standing in 1 year:

4th

Vic Fangio's scoring D during that same season:

10th

Sheesh DPlank. According to your logic? I don't see much of a drop off.

It's also funny how you ignore the last time Pagano was actually a DC. Gee, I wonder why?
He was promoted to Defensive Coordinator on January 18, 2011, succeeding Greg Mattison who accepted a similar position at the University of Michigan.[4] That year, Pagano's defense finished third in both points allowed and in yards allowed; they also finished 13th in takeaways and second in rushing yards allowed, the latter of which came to little surprise as Baltimore's defense has always been known for its ability to stop the run. However, Pagano drastically improved the pass defense, going from 21st in passing yards allowed to 4th; they also improved from ninth in passing touchdowns allowed to first in the league. The defense also came away with 17 interceptions.

In conclusion, I don't think you have any interest in looking at this topic rationally and without bias. You're all over the f'n place.
Year 3 Starting (updated yearly)

Brees (11-4): 65.5% (7th) 7.9 Y/A (7th) 27 TD (7th) 6.8 TD% (4th) 7 INT 1.8 INT% (3rd) 104 Rating (3rd)

Trubisky (8-7): 63.2% (18th) 6.1 Y/A (32nd) 17 TD (27th) 3.3 TD% (30th) 10 INT 1.9 INT% (15th) 83 Rating (28th)
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dplank
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Re: Pagano on Quinn

Sat Jun 20, 2020 5:57 pm

Yeesh, everyone is so touchy good lord. Just too much wrong here for me to take time with. I stand by my take, I’ll just leave it at that.

I’m well aware of his time in Baltimore, I literally worked with him there that year. I mentioned it specifically as one of the two great defenses he took over that weren’t “his”. Have a nice weekend and Fathers Day.
Chuck Pagano's defensive rankings in 6 years with Indy: 26th, 20th, 11th, 26th, 30th, and 30th.
RichH55
Assistant Coach
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Re: Pagano on Quinn

Sat Jun 20, 2020 8:54 pm

Putting that much on the Amos loss is a problem - he's fine. Not the best Safety of the roster by a long shot
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Z Bear
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Re: Pagano on Quinn

Mon Jun 22, 2020 10:13 am

dplank wrote:
Sat Jun 20, 2020 3:14 pm
cause I just don’t like Paganos soft defenses at all.
You keep stating this, but it is utterly wrong. Vic Fangio is the soft defensive coordinator who played bend but don't break, Pagano is WAY more aggressive. I urge you to look up that blitz statistics of all of their defenses, I put a link below for some articles on Fangio that state exactly this. Fangio blitzes about half of the league average and plays his CBs in off-man or zone, rarely plays tight man. Pagano blitzes more than the league average and typically plays tight man. Off man is going to net more turnovers as the CBs can react on the ball quicker, but will be subject to giving up quick slants for short gains. Tight man will take away the quick hitters, but make you more susceptible to deep bombs when the CB misses his jam.


https://www.google.com/search?ei=48jwXu ... CAw&uact=5
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dplank
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Re: Pagano on Quinn

Mon Jun 22, 2020 10:48 am

Z Bear wrote:
Mon Jun 22, 2020 10:13 am
dplank wrote:
Sat Jun 20, 2020 3:14 pm
cause I just don’t like Paganos soft defenses at all.
You keep stating this, but it is utterly wrong. Vic Fangio is the soft defensive coordinator who played bend but don't break, Pagano is WAY more aggressive. I urge you to look up that blitz statistics of all of their defenses, I put a link below for some articles on Fangio that state exactly this. Fangio blitzes about half of the league average and plays his CBs in off-man or zone, rarely plays tight man. Pagano blitzes more than the league average and typically plays tight man. Off man is going to net more turnovers as the CBs can react on the ball quicker, but will be subject to giving up quick slants for short gains. Tight man will take away the quick hitters, but make you more susceptible to deep bombs when the CB misses his jam.


https://www.google.com/search?ei=48jwXu ... CAw&uact=5
I'm using the term differently Z, sorry didn't mean to confuse - I'll explain. What I mean by soft isn't prevent defense or not blitzing a lot, it's soft play from the front 7. Pagano blitzes a lot more than Fangio, that's part of my complaint (I mention CB blitzes and delay blitzes a lot there). I understand this is the case, but blitzing doesn't equal "hard" in a "hard vs soft" view in the way that I'm talking about. In fact, blitzing is soft in my view as your tricking your way to the QB instead of winning your way there by beating your man.

What I mean is that Fangio coached his guys up Bill Parcells style, he rarely gave compliments and rode his guys to beat their man without any excuses, no matter what they faced. He brought toughness out of guys who needed it, I'm thinking about guys like Eddie Goldman and Bilal Nichols and Kyle Fuller and Adrian Amos. Vic's philosophy was to not blitz a whole lot, play more coverage, and get his front 7 to physically whoop the opposing offense mano e mano. What this meant to the front 7 was simply, get after your guy and beat him up, not a whole lot of bullshit there. With Pagano, he prefers trickery, he's looking to create free rushers to get pressure on the QB instead of just letting his superior athletes beat their man one on one - hence all the blitzes. He tries to confuse the offense, doing shit like blitzing the nickle while dropping an OLB in coverage into his spot, stunts, stuff like that. His coaching style is to coddle and praise his guys, he's a players coach for sure, everyone loves him and for good reason, but there's a reason why guys like Bill Parcells and Belichick are as successful as they are, and Vic is more in that mold. I very much prefer that out of a position coach or coordinator, and especially on defense.

So 10,000 foot view here, I feel like Vic creates a TOUGH defense, he plays it a little simpler and counts on his guys to win their one on one battles. The simpler play allows them to play like athletes out there, think a little less, and focus on beating their man. Pagano over blitzes and over schemes, and when he fails to outsmart the OC (this happens more often than not), we are exposed. I have a similar complaint about Nagy's offense, I think Nagy and Pagano suffer from this same issue of over scheming and trying to outsmart everyone instead of just letting their guys play simpler, faster, more aggressive football. Look at it this way, we went from tied for 3rd in the NFL in sacks in 2018, to 24th in the NFL in sacks in 2019, but Pagano blitzed MORE than Fangio did! That's what I mean by soft.

Hope this makes more sense about what I mean when I say Pagano's defense is soft. To Yogi's point, Vic did seem to call off the dogs too early though and go prevent before he should have.
Chuck Pagano's defensive rankings in 6 years with Indy: 26th, 20th, 11th, 26th, 30th, and 30th.
RichH55
Assistant Coach
Posts: 596
Joined: Tue Nov 29, 2016 4:23 pm

Re: Pagano on Quinn

Mon Jun 22, 2020 11:32 am

Dplank - I am generally with you on this

However - with respect to DL - they would have had the same position coach - And one that is very highly regarded - So I am curious as to how that applies to your thesis overall

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