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Moriarty
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dave99 wrote: Tue Jan 18, 2022 4:05 pm
IE wrote: Tue Jan 18, 2022 3:50 pm Priority (in order): WR, WR, Safety, ILB, CB, Swing OT, C

I don't see how WR isn't the top priority on everyone's list. Without a top pick they may get lucky and have a good one drop to the 2nd rounder. But most likely it will need to be two FAs to join Mooney. Dazz, Grant and maybe Adams. Put it this way: Byron Pringle would be the #1 WR on the Bears. That says all you need to say about JF1's weapons.

I think they have to go one more year with only a FA offensive line patch or two this year, because of more pressing needs in other areas. I think the top pick goes to WR or S. I think DL and ILB will be patched and filled with lower round draft picks.

I believe that if you give Fields time in a professional offensive scheme he can make do with average receivers.
For a while.
And this is not going to be a one year rebuild.
Find the five (probably 6 or 7) guys that can protect Fields and give the running game some more consistency and the offense will look a whole lot better.
Build the lines. The rest will come.

Agreed.

WR could be the ugliest position group (although I'd probably pick S - or even DL, if you let both FAs walk).
But I think a young QB needs OL and at least an average HB far more than WRs.
And in general, if you asked me which position group you'd be more comfortable with a bunch of nobodies, WR would probably top the list.
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Lots of good WR talk.

I agree Adams isn't realistic. Williams and Robinson won't be worth what they will be paid. Not sure I want to take the injury risk with Godwin or Gallup. Both of those guys I would have splurged on prior to injuries. Disappointing.

So we're down to the next tier of guys. I think Juju stays in Pitt. Kirk is somewhat interesting. But really depends on cost (can you get him sub 10M?) Fuller big durability risk?

I'm passing on older retreads like Green or Hilton.

So you get down to a tier of younger guys with some upside but won't break the bank.
Cedrick Wilson
Zay Jones
Russell Gage

These guys all bring a little size to pair with Mooney too. And I'd think will be about $7M AAV. For the cost savings from the top end of the market you're still getting a potentially break out younger talent and strong number 2. And then maybe you can get a strong slot or a upside 2nd TE and play more 12 personnel. And of course look to add to the group in the draft if value presents itself. Would definitely consider Grant back as a 4WR/gadget/PR and even Goodwin or Byrd is fine at the minimum and 5th WR spot.
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Fuller with Fields could be dangerous, I’d go there if the deal was reasonable and accounted for his injury history.
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One more name, if the guy could get healthy...Michael Thomas. NO simply can't keep him after the guy basically sat out the last 2 years. They are so far over the cap, Payton didn't walk away simply because he's burnt out, whoever coaches NO next year is going to look terrible because they have to bleed so much cap, it's crazy.
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dplank wrote: Wed Jan 26, 2022 9:52 pm Fuller with Fields could be dangerous, I’d go there if the deal was reasonable and accounted for his injury history.
Maybe. At the end of the day, WR is still a pretty strong and deep looking market. I hope Poles doesn't rush out and outbid himself on a guy like Fuller or Kirk. That said it is critical to not lose out on all options with only Mooney as a viable WR.

Fwiw, PFF FA estimate for Fuller is 10M for 1 year. So a prove it deal, but not a small one. Juju at 1/8
Jamisom Crowder at 1/4.5
Marquez Valdes-Scantling at 3/25
Sammy Watkins at 2/12
All the rest are >10M, typically on multi year deals. None of those younger guys I mentioned cracked their top 100 list. (Wilson is just outside at 101). That Valdes-Svantling estimate seems a huge outlier. I know he's a tall big play threat but still...
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That is why I keep saying Pringle or Wilson does nothing to improve the WR corps. Either was like the 4th or 5th option on their team and really has done nothing special on high powered offenses.

Pringle 6'1", 200 lbs, 67 catches, 839 yards ,7 TDs over 5 seasons.

Wilson 6'2", 200 lbs, 67 catches, 837 yards, 8 TDs over 6 season.
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Z Bear wrote: Thu Jan 27, 2022 8:23 am That is why I keep saying Pringle or Wilson does nothing to improve the WR corps. Either was like the 4th or 5th option on their team and really has done nothing special on high powered offenses.

Pringle 6'1", 200 lbs, 67 catches, 839 yards ,7 TDs over 5 seasons.

Wilson 6'2", 200 lbs, 67 catches, 837 yards, 8 TDs over 6 season.
It is super easy to dismiss Pringle on KC with those weapons - but that's a mistake. Pringle has played THREE seasons, after making THAT team as UDFA out of Kansas State in '19. Don't know why he wasn't drafted - because he was already older at 25? The Bears drafted Anthony Miller at 24. Anyway... Pringle had 5 TDs this season (his 3rd). He has a TON of tread on the tires, and is highly reliable and productive with his opportunities.

Sure - go ahead and rank guys like that as nobodies. But I'm firmly believing that guy is 1000 yards and 8 TD floor guy with more looks even as an ARob type possession receiver. Except Pringle is a 4.5-ish guy and on the faster side of WRs and isn't a primadonna.

What a guy like that would be coming in is a Jeff Graham type guy - a blue collar team player type from a great culture who plays hard and would be there for JF1 for 5 years. Affordable and good. My money is he is on Pole's short list.

Wilson also only played 3 seasons, and is only 26. Like Pringle his most impactful season was his 3rd (6 TDs). So I don't understand why you'd post such incorrect or misleading info.
Last edited by IE on Thu Jan 27, 2022 10:34 am, edited 1 time in total.
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I think we bring back Grant (we have some draft capital invested in him - even if only a 7th - and his play on special teams was solid) and I think we bring back Byrd (but he will still be a 4th or 5th WR but won't cost much).

I don't think we will spend the money to land a guy Adams or any other "true #1 WR." I think we will end up signing 2 more WRs who are top tier #2 WRs.

Kirk has some appeal to me to play in the slot. Someone talked about don't get into a bidding war for him and I agree (we can't do that with anyone given our cap) but I simply don't see he has done enough for that to happen.

I like Gallop as well. Again not a guy who is a #1 and his knee injury should keep his price low. He's a guy I think can be had on a one year prove it deal, or something similar to what we did with Robinson. I prefer the Robinson route.

This at least give us a WR room that has some potential (massive potential by Bears' standards) so that we aren't force to draft a WR with our first pick and maybe be reaching. If someone is there - great. But we aren't forced to go that route.

Half way through the college season, it was looking like my guy Burks could make it our first pick, now it's looking like he will be gone around the time the G-Men are using the pick we gave them.
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TheWorldBreaker wrote: Wed Jan 26, 2022 3:52 pm
Z Bear wrote: Wed Jan 26, 2022 3:32 pm The Bears need a bigger WR that is good at contested catches to pair with Mooney, who kind of sucks at contested catches. Mike Williams is one of the few that could potentially hit the market that fits that bill. I am not a huge fan of his since I think he has underachieved, but I could see the logic of bringing him in if you can get a decent value (less than $15M a year).
You’re basically describing Allen Robinson…Mike Williams wouldn’t be a bad signing. The veteran free agents I wanted got hurt late in the season, so I’m not sure they are real possibilities now given that Fields needs weapons immediately.

I’ve been looking at WR’s in the draft and one sleeper guy I’m intrigued by is Christian Watson.

He’s listed at 6’4 with 4.4 speed. Not sure if that is true but he looks fast on tape but it’s against weak competition. Will be very interested to see his measurements and speed at the Combine.

Cooper Kupp played at the same level, FCS, for a program that was not as good as NDSU. NDSU plays in the toughest conference in that division, IMO. Don't sleep on FCS guys.
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IE wrote: Thu Jan 27, 2022 9:40 am
Z Bear wrote: Thu Jan 27, 2022 8:23 am That is why I keep saying Pringle or Wilson does nothing to improve the WR corps. Either was like the 4th or 5th option on their team and really has done nothing special on high powered offenses.

Pringle 6'1", 200 lbs, 67 catches, 839 yards ,7 TDs over 5 seasons.

Wilson 6'2", 200 lbs, 67 catches, 837 yards, 8 TDs over 6 season.
It is super easy to dismiss Pringle on KC with those weapons - but that's a mistake. Pringle has played THREE seasons, after making THAT team as UDFA out of Kansas State in '19. Don't know why he wasn't drafted - because he was already older at 25? The Bears drafted Anthony Miller at 24. Anyway... Pringle had 5 TDs this season (his 3rd). He has a TON of tread on the tires, and is highly reliable and productive with his opportunities.

Sure - go ahead and rank guys like that as nobodies. But I'm firmly believing that guy is 1000 yards and 8 TD floor guy with more looks even as an ARob type possession receiver. Except Pringle is a 4.5-ish guy and on the faster side of WRs and isn't a primadonna.

What a guy like that would be coming in is a Jeff Graham type guy - a blue collar team player type from a great culture who plays hard and would be there for JF1 for 5 years. Affordable and good. My money is he is on Pole's short list.

So you think a WR with no special traits and not particularly good production will al of a sudden blossom when he is at an age (28 years) where guys do not get better.... gotcha.
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Z Bear wrote: Thu Jan 27, 2022 8:23 am That is why I keep saying Pringle or Wilson does nothing to improve the WR corps. Either was like the 4th or 5th option on their team and really has done nothing special on high powered offenses.

Pringle 6'1", 200 lbs, 67 catches, 839 yards ,7 TDs over 5 seasons.

Wilson 6'2", 200 lbs, 67 catches, 837 yards, 8 TDs over 6 season.
I'm not as high on Pringle. Wilson has been behind a lot of depth in DAL but performed well when he played this year. I don't know why we're using 5/6 seasons for these guys though? These are young guys. They are potentially breakout players. Young enough to play out a full 3 year deal in prime ages.
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Pringle is 28 and Wilson is 26 right now. I looked at their contracts wrong, I looked at the length and not the years. They both signed a 4 year contract but were cut and signed to the practice squad. So I saw a 4 year contract and a 2 year cotnract, but really it was only 4 years they have played.

I would take either with a slightly over vet minimum contract as neither is anything special. This is just a case of the grass is greener with another teams' players, but we would be wanting them gone if they were on the Bears. I think a WR corp of Mooney, Pringle/Wilson, Dazz Newsome, and a draft pick is severely under talented compared to just about every team in the league.
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Both Pringle and Wilson are typical "started really coming on in their 3rd year" WRs - and it is notable because they're on teams that are stacked with other talent. Although Wilson's opportunity did come from injury (which is why I like Pringle better - he EARNED it with a 50% snap count on the CHIEFS). I'm not going to ding them for being on PS for a year or two especially on teams stacked with talent, and when those teams thought well enough of them to keep them. This isn't the Bear PS with crappy WRs behind crappy WRs. These teams are stacked.

What is the deal here? The Bears need at LEAST 2 new productive WRs. Maybe THREE. There are no likely draft options to fill them. It is unlikely that Adams or Godwin come to the Bears. Juju is going to KC. And you're just dismissing real, more affordable and productive guys (Pringle's catches over 70% and you called him unproductive).... what - just to argue?
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Otis Day wrote: Thu Jan 27, 2022 10:01 am
TheWorldBreaker wrote: Wed Jan 26, 2022 3:52 pm

You’re basically describing Allen Robinson…Mike Williams wouldn’t be a bad signing. The veteran free agents I wanted got hurt late in the season, so I’m not sure they are real possibilities now given that Fields needs weapons immediately.

I’ve been looking at WR’s in the draft and one sleeper guy I’m intrigued by is Christian Watson.

He’s listed at 6’4 with 4.4 speed. Not sure if that is true but he looks fast on tape but it’s against weak competition. Will be very interested to see his measurements and speed at the Combine.

Cooper Kupp played at the same level, FCS, for a program that was not as good as NDSU. NDSU plays in the toughest conference in that division, IMO. Don't sleep on FCS guys.
Oh, I’m not, I’m a fan. It’s just that schools sometimes pump up the stats of their star players to get them more attention and it’s not as easy to gauge how big and fast someone is at an FCS school as it is in the SEC, so I’m tempering my expectations until after the all star games and Combine.
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IE wrote: Thu Jan 27, 2022 10:41 am Both Pringle and Wilson are typical "started really coming on in their 3rd year" WRs - and it is notable because they're on teams that are stacked with other talent. Although Wilson's opportunity did come from injury (which is why I like Pringle better - he EARNED it with a 50% snap count on the CHIEFS). I'm not going to ding them for being on PS for a year or two especially on teams stacked with talent, and when those teams thought well enough of them to keep them. This isn't the Bear PS with crappy WRs behind crappy WRs. These teams are stacked.

What is the deal here? The Bears need at LEAST 2 new productive WRs. Maybe THREE. There are no likely draft options to fill them. It is unlikely that Adams or Godwin come to the Bears. Juju is going to KC. And you're just dismissing real, more affordable and productive guys (Pringle's catches over 70% and you called him unproductive).... what - just to argue?
I have said I would take either at a slightly over vert minimum contract because neither is anything special. Neither has had good production, neither is exceptionally fast, neither is good sized. They are both very average WRs that will get over paid, do not want to be a part of that.
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Z Bear wrote: Thu Jan 27, 2022 10:59 am
IE wrote: Thu Jan 27, 2022 10:41 am Both Pringle and Wilson are typical "started really coming on in their 3rd year" WRs - and it is notable because they're on teams that are stacked with other talent. Although Wilson's opportunity did come from injury (which is why I like Pringle better - he EARNED it with a 50% snap count on the CHIEFS). I'm not going to ding them for being on PS for a year or two especially on teams stacked with talent, and when those teams thought well enough of them to keep them. This isn't the Bear PS with crappy WRs behind crappy WRs. These teams are stacked.

What is the deal here? The Bears need at LEAST 2 new productive WRs. Maybe THREE. There are no likely draft options to fill them. It is unlikely that Adams or Godwin come to the Bears. Juju is going to KC. And you're just dismissing real, more affordable and productive guys (Pringle's catches over 70% and you called him unproductive).... what - just to argue?
I have said I would take either at a slightly over vert minimum contract because neither is anything special. Neither has had good production, neither is exceptionally fast, neither is good sized. They are both very average WRs that will get over paid, do not want to be a part of that.
70+% reception rate and a QB rating of 127 when going to him is unproductive? 4.46 isn't fast? That's like Justin speed (Jefferson, Fields).

I'm pretty sure what isn't special is your opinion about these guys. It has turned into being disingenuous to win an argument and not about the actual guys. Again my bet is Pringle is on Pole's short list due tofamiliarity reliability and affordability. I don't think it will be a minimum contract. I could be wrong. But regardless - I'm out and not having arguments just to argue.
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4.46 speead is not great for a NFL receiver, it is very average. I get it, you think Pringle will devlop into a Pro Bowl WR at 29 years old when the season starts, I don.'t. Just leave it as a difference of opinion and move on. There is nothing disengenious about it, just history in the NFL that very few WRs get better at 29 year old.
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Z Bear wrote: Thu Jan 27, 2022 11:15 am 4.46 speead is not great for a NFL receiver, it is very average. I get it, you think Pringle will devlop into a Pro Bowl WR at 29 years old when the season starts, I don.'t. Just leave it as a difference of opinion and move on. There is nothing disengenious about it, just history in the NFL that very few WRs get better at 29 year old.
Pringle "could" be a valuable piece to the offense. But he's just going to be a guy...steady, healthy, reliable. He's probably going to give you 7-800 yards or so and 3-4 touchdowns as a #2.

He's a 2yr stopgap.
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And how much is that worth? Would you pay him $7-8M a year for that since that is what his market appears to be.? Paying decent money to average players is not a good way to build you team. IF you can sign him for $2-3M great, good value to be a 2 or 3 WR. Buting paying him good money to be a #1 WR when he isn't is a huge mistake.
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Z Bear wrote: Thu Jan 27, 2022 11:40 am And how much is that worth? Would you pay him $7-8M a year for that since that is what his market appears to be.? Paying decent money to average players is not a good way to build you team. IF you can sign him for $2-3M great, good value to be a 2 or 3 WR. Buting paying him good money to be a #1 WR when he isn't is a huge mistake.
5 per is probably about it. But again, I don't get too caught up in the money part of all of this.
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Everybody knows the Bears desperately need a true #1 WR to pair with JF1. It just isn't going to happen this year, because of:

- A lack of actual healthy true #1 WRs available (Adams, Godwin)
- A number of FA WRs who likely will want to be paid like a #1 WR to come to the Bears, but are truly #2 guys at best and may sign elsewhere for less to win (e.g. Juju, Williams, maybe Ridley)
- Absent draft capital

The lesson has been learned that you don't take a #2 guy and pay him franchise money hoping he'll produce like a #1 WR. That amount of money can stock the entire emptyp WR room. So the right way to approach it is to pay 2-3 good healthy young guys $4, 5-10MM each to fill up the room with competence around Mooney and the Pace Picks. Maybe take a flyer on an injured guy like Chark or a oft-injured guy like Fuller V IF they can be gotten for a bargain (highly doubtful).

It has to be clear that the Bears aren't shopping for the top shelf tonic here, because the shelf and wallet are empty. They'll try to use a pick on an Opus One or Stags Leap or whatever in '23, or lure in a #1 next season if the market works. But this year they're looking at a half case of $15 bottles that can punch above their weight and satisfy the party.

Gallup, Gage, Pringle, Wilson, Kirk, Crowder, Watson .... they're all the same thing. We can have opinions of the options on the shelf- but the '22 future is sitting on that shelf.
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I think you are going to be surprised at how much Gallup, Wilson, and Kirk are going to get.
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Not to be too picky, but is there a way to split this WR talk out of the Poles hiring thread? It was a decent 3 page thread that had nothing to do with Poles.
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wab wrote: Thu Jan 27, 2022 12:12 pm I think you are going to be surprised at how much Gallup, Wilson, and Kirk are going to get.
I won't. That's all a factor in my expressed preference. I see Wilson as being the cheapest one there. And personally I think he's as good as the other two.

I just really feel at that level they're mostly fungible. I do think Poles' ties to Pringle make that a really good fit, in addition to thinking he's one of the more affordable and better stories of all of them.
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wab wrote: Thu Jan 27, 2022 12:12 pm I think you are going to be surprised at how much Gallup, Wilson, and Kirk are going to get.
I'm not up on free agent WR possibilities, but to provide a bit of context the Broncos, despite having Sutton and Jeudy, forked out a $34.5m 3-year contract for Tim Patrick in November of this season.

He was an undrafted guy who bounced around a couple of teams' practice squads for a year before making Denver's team in 2018. These are his numbers:

2018: 16 games, 23 catches, 315 yards, 1 TD
2019: 8 games, 16 catches, 218 yards, 0 TD
2020: 15 games, 51 catches, 742 yards, 6 TDs
2021: 16 games, 53 catches, 734 yards, 5 TDs

Based on this you're looking at a ballpark figure of $11.5m a year for a 50 catch/740 yards/5 TD WR.
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Another scrap heap name I'd add is James Washington. He never really found his place in Pittsburgh but maybe a change of scenery could help him. He's got a thick RB body type and could be a good addition if they end up with little speedsters again or more string beans like Mooney.
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Z Bear wrote: Thu Jan 27, 2022 12:23 pm Not to be too picky, but is there a way to split this WR talk out of the Poles hiring thread? It was a decent 3 page thread that had nothing to do with Poles.
Well the thread was "If you were the General Manager". Now that the Bears have a General Manager...

But I digress .
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crueltyabc wrote: Thu Jan 27, 2022 1:33 pm Another scrap heap name I'd add is James Washington. He never really found his place in Pittsburgh but maybe a change of scenery could help him. He's got a thick RB body type and could be a good addition if they end up with little speedsters again or more string beans like Mooney.
I've always thought he was a better RB than a WR. He's sort of a less talented Debo.
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wab wrote: Thu Jan 27, 2022 12:12 pm I think you are going to be surprised at how much Gallup, Wilson, and Kirk are going to get.
That likely is a very true point. I tend to be shocked by lots of contracts. Of the three I still think Kirk will be the cheapest. Now granted that may still be an insane amount of money, in which case we may have to pass.
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Arkansasbear wrote: Thu Jan 27, 2022 4:32 pm
wab wrote: Thu Jan 27, 2022 12:12 pm I think you are going to be surprised at how much Gallup, Wilson, and Kirk are going to get.
That likely is a very true point. I tend to be shocked by lots of contracts. Of the three I still think Kirk will be the cheapest. Now granted that may still be an insane amount of money, in which case we may have to pass.
I don't see Kirk as cheaper than Wilson. But there are always surprises. FA market can be a fickle animal and it only takes one team with a outlier valuation.
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