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RichH55
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I did read it - and in fairness you started explaining away the baffling post in that exact baffling post about Simmons (A point you don't actually believe)

MY point is : Why bring it up if you have to divorce yourself of that position in the same post itself???

Maybe- and hear me out - you just don't bring up the nonsense point at all?
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dplank
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If Lchavious Simmons is currently a starter, that tells me that we need to add multiple OL to push him far enough down the depth chart that he doesn’t make the final 53. Poles needs to get to work to make that happen. One draft pick isn’t enough. If we roll into 2022 with Simmons on the 53, Poles failed. He’s my canary in a coal mine - It’s not a nonsense point at all.
RichH55
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dplank wrote: Thu Apr 07, 2022 6:26 pm If Lchavious Simmons is currently a starter, that tells me that we need to add multiple OL to push him far enough down the depth chart that he doesn’t make the final 53. Poles needs to get to work to make that happen. One draft pick isn’t enough. If we roll into 2022 with Simmons on the 53, Poles failed. He’s my canary in a coal mine - It’s not a nonsense point at all.
I think this overrates the quality depth of the OL within the NFL

How many teams have 10 Solid OL?
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To put a finer point on it:

If Simmons makes the 53 - I do not think that is canary in a coalmine or anything approaching that.
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dplank
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He was a PS guy last year. I’d say it’s safe to say we’ve taken a step back if he’s promoted to the 53 this season. Just basic logic, or nonsense 🤷‍♂️
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dplank wrote: Thu Apr 07, 2022 6:36 pm He was a PS guy last year. I’d say it’s safe to say we’ve taken a step back if he’s promoted to the 53 this season. Just basic logic, or nonsense 🤷‍♂️
He was also a draft pick (You can fairly question the GM who drafted him)

Is the contention really that if a guy was on the Practice Squad and he progresses and makes the 53 man (not starting, not expected to be a contributor, JUST MAKING the 53)

That's taking a step back???? Automatically?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Practice_squad

Guys who were once on a PS (insane point to make):
"Many NFL players spent time on practice squads before finding success in the league, including NFL first-team All Pro players James Harrison, Adrian Phillips, Jason Peters, Danny Amendola, Danny Woodhead, Arian Foster, and Kyle Cook.[11][12]"
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dplank
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It’s a fair point until you watch him play. Rashad Coward was a better player. If you’re a GM who preaches OL play, you don’t have guys like that on your roster. FYI 90% of PS players wash out of the league. Odds are very much against him and I stand by my marker that Poles failed if he’s on our 53.
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dplank wrote: Thu Apr 07, 2022 7:06 pm It’s a fair point until you watch him play. Rashad Coward was a better player. If you’re a GM who preaches OL play, you don’t have guys like that on your roster. FYI 90% of PS players wash out of the league. Odds are very much against him and I stand by my marker that Poles failed if he’s on our 53.
I have no problem judging the player by the players sake.

Foolishness like he was on the PS so he must suck automatically

Shades of Too Tall TE
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The Marshall Plan
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RichH55 wrote: Thu Apr 07, 2022 7:41 pm
dplank wrote: Thu Apr 07, 2022 7:06 pm It’s a fair point until you watch him play. Rashad Coward was a better player. If you’re a GM who preaches OL play, you don’t have guys like that on your roster. FYI 90% of PS players wash out of the league. Odds are very much against him and I stand by my marker that Poles failed if he’s on our 53.
I have no problem judging the player by the players sake.

Foolishness like he was on the PS so he must suck automatically

Shades of Too Tall TE
Serious question. Do you remember the name of that TE?

We had a TE on the roster that was 7 feet tall I believe. I can't remember how far back this was but I'm guessing 15 years ago? I don't think he ever made the actual roster.

I was trying to remember that guys name a couple weeks ago and I couldn't come up with it.
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The Nagy era coaching staff didn't show a lot of proof that they tried to invest in or develop anyone who wasn't starting.
If Simmons took his career seriously and worked on his strength and agility, there's no sane reason to believe that he couldn't eventually develop into at least a solid backup.
I would trust a guy who's played the position to know if Simmons has that potential and the drive to get there.
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IE
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If I had to choose between trusting Poles' judgment and Flus' judgement over Pace's and Nagy's... I do. That's not being all -in and worshipping or any of that kind of "poison the well" argument that attempts to undermine people's credibility by labeling them.

It is just common sense. We KNOW that Nagy was horrible and Pace was at least neutered by him voluntarily. What happened in the past with players could reasonably be considered a function of the previous regime's incompetence. We don't that for sure but we DO know they were incompetent.

So in order to not drive oneself insane and given the current options... it makes more sense to stay calm and not start drawing arbitrary lines in the sand on which player defines the new regime. If they think a guy might be salvageable and develop-able for whatever reason, then they really deserve the benefit of the doubt until someone trots out there like Coward and just sucks totally and the regime doesn't seem to notice. That's when the judgement starts coming down. Until then... it's just watching and trying to guess what they're doing and what they like.

I actually seriously expect a few surprises from players who looked bad or underwhelming previously under Nagy. And that is not crazy or naive.
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Fair IE, but after watching this movie for nearly 40 years now, my trust factor is zero. And that’s not hysterical or nonsense. I get Poles is new, but the same leadership group brought us our prior failures so I can’t just start with a clean slate. He will have to actually wash the Bears stank off him to earn my trust.
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Yeah, I agree. By all accounts, Simmons has the nasty Poles seeks. He already has the size. Questions about his strength coming from an FCS program should have been answered by now, with two years in an NFL weight program.

He was dreadful at OT, but the demands are less playing inside at G. If he manages to be an even serviceable backup, that's solid return on a 7th rounder. If he doesn't, I have little doubt he'll be replaced; this staff has no ties to him.
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AZ_Bearfan wrote: Sun Apr 10, 2022 1:54 pm Poles went to a nice steakhouse, ordered the cheapest thing on the menu and is stuffing the bread rolls in his pockets for later. Poles is basically my mom.
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dplank wrote: Fri Apr 08, 2022 8:53 am Fair IE, but after watching this movie for nearly 40 years now, my trust factor is zero. And that’s not hysterical or nonsense. I get Poles is new, but the same leadership group brought us our prior failures so I can’t just start with a clean slate. He will have to actually wash the Bears stank off him to earn my trust.
That's understandable.

I don't subscribe to it just yet, but I can see where you're coming from.
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AZ_Bearfan wrote: Sun Apr 10, 2022 1:54 pm Poles went to a nice steakhouse, ordered the cheapest thing on the menu and is stuffing the bread rolls in his pockets for later. Poles is basically my mom.
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wab
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dplank wrote: Thu Apr 07, 2022 6:26 pm If Lchavious Simmons is currently a starter, that tells me that we need to add multiple OL to push him far enough down the depth chart that he doesn’t make the final 53. Poles needs to get to work to make that happen. One draft pick isn’t enough. If we roll into 2022 with Simmons on the 53, Poles failed. He’s my canary in a coal mine - It’s not a nonsense point at all.
I really don't understand what point you are trying to make with Simmons. Some correlation that Poles has failed this offseason because of Lachavious Simmons?

As far as Simmons goes...it would not surprise me in the least if Poles favors guys like this a little bit. At least enough to give them a chance in camp. Try hard nobodies are kind of his thing.
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dplank
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Canary in a coal mine is a symbol for “warning or trouble”. In prior years I would point to Coward in this same manner when arguing with Bears fans who refused to acknowledge that our OL sucked - I’d simplify it with a simple statement that if Coward is your starting G then you have a talent problem. Simmons is even worse than Coward, so he’s my new marker. If he makes the 53, we have a talent problem.
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wab
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Eh. You can't say objectively that Simmons is worse than a defensive tackle trying to play guard. At least not based on the *checks notes* 23 whole snaps he's played. And not under a coaching staff that has been universally accused of putting players in a poor position to succeed.

If Simmons is on the final roster, it's probably because Poles and Flus feel like he's worth developing - because there will be alternatives.
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dplank wrote: Fri Apr 08, 2022 9:14 am Canary in a coal mine is a symbol for “warning or trouble”. In prior years I would point to Coward in this same manner when arguing with Bears fans who refused to acknowledge that our OL sucked - I’d simplify it with a simple statement that if Coward is your starting G then you have a talent problem. Simmons is even worse than Coward, so he’s my new marker. If he makes the 53, we have a talent problem.
Starting and making the 53 man roster and inherently different scenarios

It's just bad logic overall

If the Canary in a Coalmine for bad talent on a NFL Roster is that either A) Someone who makes the 53 man roster isn't great or B) That a backup OL might not be great .....

Well no one should ever be in a Mine because you just named all the teams in the NFL
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dplank
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Well you boys can cheer for Lachavious Simmons all you like (maybe buy a jersey!), just don't come complaining when our OL sucks again - for like the 37th time in the last 40 years. He was a 7th round pick and a PS squad player - 90%+ of those guys are not NFL caliber players and wash out of the league. You don't want to be the team with such a poor roster of talent that he makes your team - it's a negative indicator - it's really that simple. You're welcome to argue he'll buck the trend and turn into a good player, but that puts massive trust into Poles which, as I explained, he hasn't earned yet. Just yet another example of St. Poles, the man who can do no wrong!
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dplank wrote: Fri Apr 08, 2022 10:17 am Well you boys can cheer for Lachavious Simmons all you like (maybe buy a jersey!), just don't come complaining when our OL sucks again - for like the 37th time in the last 40 years. He was a 7th round pick and a PS squad player - 90%+ of those guys are not NFL caliber players and wash out of the league. You don't want to be the team with such a poor roster of talent that he makes your team - it's a negative indicator - it's really that simple. You're welcome to argue he'll buck the trend and turn into a good player, but that puts massive trust into Poles which, as I explained, he hasn't earned yet. Just yet another example of St. Poles, the man who can do no wrong!
This is a bad take and you know it.
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dplank
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Wanting to have an OL room that is good enough that guys like Lachavious Simmons aren't in it, is a take I'll stand by and be proud of. I kept this same candle going during our Rashad Coward years while folks kept telling me everything was fine also - but it wasn't.

It feels like a coin flip right now if we will see it happen or not. Hoping for the best!
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dplank wrote: Thu Apr 07, 2022 6:26 pm If Lchavious Simmons is currently a starter, that tells me that we need to add multiple OL to push him far enough down the depth chart that he doesn’t make the final 53. Poles needs to get to work to make that happen. One draft pick isn’t enough. If we roll into 2022 with Simmons on the 53, Poles failed. He’s my canary in a coal mine - It’s not a nonsense point at all.
He is not currently a starter. It's April. The first depth chart hasnt even been made yet.

https://www.chicagobears.com/team/depth-chart

"The first depth chart of the 2022 season will be announced this summer during Training Camp."


And honest to god, why would Simmons be penciled in as the Starter if there were a depth chart currently? Jenkins, Whitehair, Patrick, Dozier, Borom would be my guess with the current make up of the roster. Plus the post draft FA's and draft picks who will undoubtedly get a shot. But you already know all this and really just want to complain, correct?
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HurricaneBear wrote: Fri Apr 08, 2022 10:53 am
dplank wrote: Thu Apr 07, 2022 6:26 pm If Lchavious Simmons is currently a starter, that tells me that we need to add multiple OL to push him far enough down the depth chart that he doesn’t make the final 53. Poles needs to get to work to make that happen. One draft pick isn’t enough. If we roll into 2022 with Simmons on the 53, Poles failed. He’s my canary in a coal mine - It’s not a nonsense point at all.
. But you already know all this and really just want to complain, correct?
He wants to complain badly too (there are reasonable criticisms - these are NOT those) - Remember no matter how bad the take - Fan is just sort for Fanatic!

So take your nuance and reason elsewhere!
RichH55
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It's wild watching L. Simmons become someones Villain origin story
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dplank
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Not as wild as watching placated Bears fans assume the best from a franchise that's been bottom barrel for decades. Aspire to be better.

Also, moving you back to blocked for a while. Let me know when you get back on your meds. I deal with bullies a very particular way, a way that isn't really possible on the internet so instead I have to simply remove them from my view. You can chase someone else around every thread for a while.
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I think because we have struggled historically it’s reasonable to expect a slow rebuild.
We have to give Poles a bit of latitude.
There are some good OT and OG prospects in the draft
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Ditka’s dictaphone wrote: Fri Apr 08, 2022 11:30 am We have to give Poles a bit of latitude.
There are some good OT and OG prospects in the draft
That’s where I’m at although admittedly it’s a struggle at times.

Poles was at KC for a long time and they’ve been a consistent winner.

And with 3 day two picks we could easily get a starting tackle.
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dplank wrote: Fri Apr 08, 2022 11:27 am Not as wild as watching placated Bears fans assume the best from a franchise that's been bottom barrel for decades. Aspire to be better.
There is a difference between waiting and seeing and assuming the best.

Has all your aspiring to be better worked any different than the people who just watch and try to find enjoyment in a hobby? We both watch the same loser team on Sundays.

It doesn't have to be so absolute as you try to make it.

But honestly, if you really are just pissed after years of shit this franchise has given us and complaining, thats understandable. But just call it that. It doesn't have to be everyone against you man. We are all in the same boat no matter how much passion we put into our hobby.

:toast:
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HurricaneBear wrote: Fri Apr 08, 2022 11:43 am
dplank wrote: Fri Apr 08, 2022 11:27 am Not as wild as watching placated Bears fans assume the best from a franchise that's been bottom barrel for decades. Aspire to be better.
There is a difference between waiting and seeing and assuming the best.

Has all your aspiring to be better worked any different than the people who just watch and try to find enjoyment in a hobby? We both watch the same loser team on Sundays.

It doesn't have to be so absolute as you try to make it.

But honestly, if you really are just pissed after years of shit this franchise has given us and complaining, thats understandable. But just call it that. It doesn't have to be everyone against you man. We are all in the same boat no matter how much passion we put into our hobby.

:toast:
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AZ_Bearfan wrote: Sun Apr 10, 2022 1:54 pm Poles went to a nice steakhouse, ordered the cheapest thing on the menu and is stuffing the bread rolls in his pockets for later. Poles is basically my mom.
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dplank
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HurricaneBear wrote: Fri Apr 08, 2022 11:43 am
dplank wrote: Fri Apr 08, 2022 11:27 am Not as wild as watching placated Bears fans assume the best from a franchise that's been bottom barrel for decades. Aspire to be better.
There is a difference between waiting and seeing and assuming the best.

Has all your aspiring to be better worked any different than the people who just watch and try to find enjoyment in a hobby? We both watch the same loser team on Sundays.

It doesn't have to be so absolute as you try to make it.

But honestly, if you really are just pissed after years of shit this franchise has given us and complaining, thats understandable. But just call it that. It doesn't have to be everyone against you man. We are all in the same boat no matter how much passion we put into our hobby.

:toast:
Cheers! I'd say its equal parts long term frustration and off season boredom. I enjoy talking and debating this stuff, and it makes me a target, and that's ok. I will say that a lot of folks misunderstand a genuine interest in debating this stuff with some obsession or need to be right - it's a hobby as you say and I totally get that and don't take this nearly as seriously as you guys think I do. I just like the debates, I find it interesting and learn stuff in the process. I genuinely don't give a damn if I'm right or wrong about any of this stuff - and always easy to come to a point of 'agree to disagree' so long as there's a mutual understanding of the points and they aren't being purposefully distorted/misrepresented - that's typically when I get pissed off lol. CoolerKing and I can debate something for multiple pages without getting nasty, because we actually try to understand one another and approach the conversation from a perspective of mutual respect - we don't have to paint someone as else an idiot to get a point across. Always found you to be the same sir.
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