HisRoyalSweetness wrote: ↑Wed Mar 30, 2022 1:12 pm
The problem wasn't signing Dalton, it was trading for Foles. They basically gave up on Trubisky after 3 seasons and wasted a draft pick and guaranteed money on a veteran who was never going to be the solution and then couldn't shift him.
There weren't a lot of great options in 2020, but they could have signed a FA (including Siemian) with less commitment and/or drafted a QB (Hurts was taken by the Eagles after the Bears drafted Kmet and Johnson) and gone all in on Trubisky for one more year whilst still having the option to do what they ended up doing - drafting a new QB in the 1st round in 2021.
Some may argue that's hindsight, but trading for Foles never looked to be a good move and turned out to be yet another awful one.
The problem with Foles was the overpay (What people want to do all this offseason for some reason)
You HAD to bring in another option - be it a viable NFL backup or pure competition for Mitch - Chase Daniel is not a real NFL QB (he's a good mentor in the room - But throwing a football is not a real strength of his)
HisRoyalSweetness wrote: ↑Wed Mar 30, 2022 1:12 pm
The problem wasn't signing Dalton, it was trading for Foles. They basically gave up on Trubisky after 3 seasons and wasted a draft pick and guaranteed money on a veteran who was never going to be the solution and then couldn't shift him.
There weren't a lot of great options in 2020, but they could have signed a FA (including Siemian) with less commitment and/or drafted a QB (Hurts was taken by the Eagles after the Bears drafted Kmet and Johnson) and gone all in on Trubisky for one more year whilst still having the option to do what they ended up doing - drafting a new QB in the 1st round in 2021.
Some may argue that's hindsight, but trading for Foles never looked to be a good move and turned out to be yet another awful one.
The problem with Foles was the overpay (What people want to do all this offseason for some reason)
You HAD to bring in another option - be it a viable NFL backup or pure competition for Mitch - Chase Daniel is not a real NFL QB (he's a good mentor in the room - But throwing a football is not a real strength of his)
That's what I said. The point was that Pace didn't have to trade for one and guarantee him $24m. He had other options. Daniel was seriously overpaid too.
The amount Poles is paying for Siemian is as much as a team should be paying for a backup. Hopefully going forward he'll be drafting a QB every couple of years or so to develop and fill that role on a dirt cheap deal with the savings going towards bolstering other positions. Who knows, he may even get lucky and unearth a diamond in the rough someday who will either beat out Fields or at least have trade value like Garoppolo. The Patriots got some decent play from him on the rare occasions that Brady was out and then recouped the 2nd round pick they originally spent to get him.
The problem with Foles was the overpay (What people want to do all this offseason for some reason)
You HAD to bring in another option - be it a viable NFL backup or pure competition for Mitch - Chase Daniel is not a real NFL QB (he's a good mentor in the room - But throwing a football is not a real strength of his)
That's what I said. The point was that Pace didn't have to trade for one and guarantee him $24m. He had other options. Daniel was seriously overpaid too.
The amount Poles is paying for Siemian is as much as a team should be paying for a backup. Hopefully going forward he'll be drafting a QB every couple of years or so to develop and fill that role on a dirt cheap deal with the savings going towards bolstering other positions. Who knows, he may even get lucky and unearth a diamond in the rough someday who will either beat out Fields or at least have trade value like Garoppolo. The Patriots got some decent play from him on the rare occasions that Brady was out and then recouped the 2nd round pick they originally spent to get him.
I would note Jimmy G was a 2nd Rounder - so it wasn't like he was cheap either
I think you can spend more than Siemian (which I like that contract) - BUT 5-6 million should be more of the limit IMHO
RichH55 wrote: ↑Wed Mar 30, 2022 11:27 pm
I would note Jimmy G was a 2nd Rounder - so it wasn't like he was cheap either
I think you can spend more than Siemian (which I like that contract) - BUT 5-6 million should be more of the limit IMHO
I also noted that Garopollo was a 2nd round pick, but he absolutely was cheap. His cap hits while with the Patriots were:
2014: $633,436
2015: $791,795
2016: $950,154
Why spend $5-6m on a back up QB? If your starter goes down for any length of time your season isn't likely to go anywhere. You just need someone who can step in for a couple of games or so and give you a chance to win until your starter returns. Preferably that will be a young player with possible upside rather than a veteran who's had his shot and shown his limitations.
I'd rather have a back up QB earning less than $1m p.a. on a rookie contract and spend an additional $4-5m on OL to protect my starter or on weapons for him to throw to.
RichH55 wrote: ↑Wed Mar 30, 2022 11:27 pm
I would note Jimmy G was a 2nd Rounder - so it wasn't like he was cheap either
I think you can spend more than Siemian (which I like that contract) - BUT 5-6 million should be more of the limit IMHO
I also noted that Garopollo was a 2nd round pick, but he absolutely was cheap. His cap hits while with the Patriots were:
2014: $633,436
2015: $791,795
2016: $950,154
Why spend $5-6m on a back up QB? If your starter goes down for any length of time your season isn't likely to go anywhere. You just need someone who can step in for a couple of games or so and give you a chance to win until your starter returns. Preferably that will be a young player with possible upside rather than a veteran who's had his shot and shown his limitations.
I'd rather have a back up QB earning less than $1m p.a. on a rookie contract and spend an additional $4-5m on OL to protect my starter or on weapons for him to throw to.
You wouldn't trade 4-5 million in Cap Room for a 2nd Round pick?
I also noted that Garopollo was a 2nd round pick, but he absolutely was cheap. His cap hits while with the Patriots were:
2014: $633,436
2015: $791,795
2016: $950,154
Why spend $5-6m on a back up QB? If your starter goes down for any length of time your season isn't likely to go anywhere. You just need someone who can step in for a couple of games or so and give you a chance to win until your starter returns. Preferably that will be a young player with possible upside rather than a veteran who's had his shot and shown his limitations.
I'd rather have a back up QB earning less than $1m p.a. on a rookie contract and spend an additional $4-5m on OL to protect my starter or on weapons for him to throw to.
You wouldn't trade 4-5 million in Cap Room for a 2nd Round pick?
Seems like that would be a good trade. Browns paid 16m for a 2nd.
Now if Poles can buy some picks like that, I would let up on my complaints to actually spend money on FA.
I also noted that Garopollo was a 2nd round pick, but he absolutely was cheap. His cap hits while with the Patriots were:
2014: $633,436
2015: $791,795
2016: $950,154
Why spend $5-6m on a back up QB? If your starter goes down for any length of time your season isn't likely to go anywhere. You just need someone who can step in for a couple of games or so and give you a chance to win until your starter returns. Preferably that will be a young player with possible upside rather than a veteran who's had his shot and shown his limitations.
I'd rather have a back up QB earning less than $1m p.a. on a rookie contract and spend an additional $4-5m on OL to protect my starter or on weapons for him to throw to.
You wouldn't trade 4-5 million in Cap Room for a 2nd Round pick?
Not in a million years because if I draft right, I can have both.
I draft an OL, or any number of positions, and he's a quality player I'm getting a $10M+ per year player (signed in FA) for 1/5 of the cost.
Ok.....
Maybe you aren't following. This is a discussion about backup QB. And about the value of a 2nd Round pick. So I'm confused by the responses.
The other poster was basically saying he wouldn't want a Dalton type because that's like 4-5 Million whereas he can have a cheap QB like Jimmy G - while I pointed out that Jimmy G still cost a 2nd rounder .....thus the choice between the two alternatives. And the question whether you'd want 4-5 in Cap Room or an extra 2nd
I dont disagree that if you draft a quality player in the 2nd you are getting a good deal
But the question remains - if you could trade 4-5 in Cap Room for a 2nd - why wouldn't you? You cannot do both.
Ha I totally missed the point of the hypothetical, but I see where it works.
Probably makes sense around Rd 4 to use on a backup QB f you have a star at QB already.
Though for purposes of hypothetical we should be running the numbers over 4 years, right? Is it 4 to 5 every year? And then doscounting some factor based on risk (you use the pick but he sucks so you still have to spend on a backup vet)
The Cooler King wrote: ↑Fri Apr 01, 2022 9:16 pm
Ha I totally missed the point of the hypothetical, but I see where it works.
Probably makes sense around Rd 4 to use on a backup QB f you have a star at QB already.
Though for purposes of hypothetical we should be running the numbers over 4 years, right? Is it 4 to 5 every year? And then doscounting some factor based on risk (you use the pick but he sucks so you still have to spend on a backup vet)
All interesting points.
So - I leave it open ended - How much Cap would you pay for a 2nd Round pick - generally?
The Cooler King wrote: ↑Fri Apr 01, 2022 9:16 pm
Ha I totally missed the point of the hypothetical, but I see where it works.
Probably makes sense around Rd 4 to use on a backup QB f you have a star at QB already.
Though for purposes of hypothetical we should be running the numbers over 4 years, right? Is it 4 to 5 every year? And then doscounting some factor based on risk (you use the pick but he sucks so you still have to spend on a backup vet)
All interesting points.
So - I leave it open ended - How much Cap would you pay for a 2nd Round pick - generally?
I really have no idea other than the Osweiler deal as a data point. They tried something similar a couple years after and it got rejected by league, gotta remind myself what that value was.
But ideally an NFL would just convert draft value to cap surplus so rookie and vet measurements are on a 1:1 basis.
RichH55 wrote: ↑Fri Apr 01, 2022 5:01 pm
The other poster was basically saying he wouldn't want a Dalton type because that's like 4-5 Million whereas he can have a cheap QB like Jimmy G - while I pointed out that Jimmy G still cost a 2nd rounder.....
The 'other poster' said that he wouldn't want the team paying more than what they're paying Siemian i.e. $2m to $2.5m and would rather have a cheap QB on a rookie contract because:
It saves some money that can be used to support the starting QB on the field.
It gives the team a backup QB that may develop into a quality player at the game's most valuable position rather than a guy who's already been around and proven not to be starter-quality (at least at this stage of his career).
If the player develops then he might have trade value. The 'other poster' used Garoppolo as an example. He cost the Patriots a 2nd round pick, but 3 years later they recouped that 2nd round pick when they traded him to the 49ers.
If the team gets really lucky the player might even prove to be better than their current starter. See Tom Brady, Russell Wilson, Kirk Cousins, Dak Prescott etc.
What 'the other poster' did not say was that the team has to spend a pick as high as a 2nd round one on a developmental backup QB. It could be a later round. The point is that it is better to have the potential of a young, cheap backup QB over a veteran whose ceiling is already clear.
RichH55 wrote: ↑Fri Apr 01, 2022 5:01 pm
The other poster was basically saying he wouldn't want a Dalton type because that's like 4-5 Million whereas he can have a cheap QB like Jimmy G - while I pointed out that Jimmy G still cost a 2nd rounder.....
The 'other poster' said that he wouldn't want the team paying more than what they're paying Siemian i.e. $2m to $2.5m and would rather have a cheap QB on a rookie contract because:
It saves some money that can be used to support the starting QB on the field.
It gives the team a backup QB that may develop into a quality player at the game's most valuable position rather than a guy who's already been around and proven not to be starter-quality (at least at this stage of his career).
If the player develops then he might have trade value. The 'other poster' used Garoppolo as an example. He cost the Patriots a 2nd round pick, but 3 years later they recouped that 2nd round pick when they traded him to the 49ers.
If the team gets really lucky the player might even prove to be better than their current starter. See Tom Brady, Russell Wilson, Kirk Cousins, Dak Prescott etc.
What 'the other poster' did not say was that the team has to spend a pick as high as a 2nd round one on a developmental backup QB. It could be a later round. The point is that it is better to have the potential of a young, cheap backup QB over a veteran whose ceiling is already clear.
Bird in the hand though.
Especially because its specifically for a backup QB....and 2nd Round is pretty valuable real estate
There are options where it works out - and in the Jimmy G scenario you recoup that pick. Usually you won't - and usually backup QB kind of suck.
PFF just did an entry on this. For anyone weary of PFF, they didn't use WAR or grades for this, it was based just on second contracts, so it's just a market analysis.
They break it down by position, which makes sense. If you're talking about non QBs though 5-10M per year is probably a good starting point for the surplus value of "buying" a pick.
Not sure if 100% of that value over 4 years should be the market setter for buying a pick, but at least a upper limit starting point.
As to the original question though, you're buy img such different things from a vet QB backup from a 2nd round QB backup. But easily I'd pay the 4-5M over using a 2nd on a QB. But that's not the only choice. I can also chose a cheaper vet or a lower round pick, so..
HisRoyalSweetness wrote: ↑Sat Apr 02, 2022 5:57 pm
The 'other poster' said that he wouldn't want the team paying more than what they're paying Siemian i.e. $2m to $2.5m and would rather have a cheap QB on a rookie contract because:
It saves some money that can be used to support the starting QB on the field.
It gives the team a backup QB that may develop into a quality player at the game's most valuable position rather than a guy who's already been around and proven not to be starter-quality (at least at this stage of his career).
If the player develops then he might have trade value. The 'other poster' used Garoppolo as an example. He cost the Patriots a 2nd round pick, but 3 years later they recouped that 2nd round pick when they traded him to the 49ers.
If the team gets really lucky the player might even prove to be better than their current starter. See Tom Brady, Russell Wilson, Kirk Cousins, Dak Prescott etc.
What 'the other poster' did not say was that the team has to spend a pick as high as a 2nd round one on a developmental backup QB. It could be a later round. The point is that it is better to have the potential of a young, cheap backup QB over a veteran whose ceiling is already clear.
Bird in the hand though.
Especially because its specifically for a backup QB....and 2nd Round is pretty valuable real estate
There are options where it works out - and in the Jimmy G scenario you recoup that pick. Usually you won't - and usually backup QB kind of suck.
So there is a choice
Wow, you're really hung up on this 2nd Round notion aren't you?
