JF1 and WR Chemistry

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I think even just improving on this seemingly simple thing will help elevate JF1. Losing Robinson may actually be addition by subtraction.

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There's also the one that went right between Arobs arms in the end zone. Forgot which game. But god how can a good player play just so damn bad in a contract year?
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HurricaneBear wrote: Mon May 09, 2022 9:29 am There's also the one that went right between Arobs arms in the end zone. Forgot which game. But god how can a good player play just so damn bad in a contract year?
Maybe the lack of targets and lack of motivation made him forget the basics. Reminds me of when I played baseball as a kid; having no interest in the sport, they stuck me in the outfield where I would just be bored out of my mind. So if a ball ever did come my way, I was usually in another world and by the time I snapped out of it I would forget what to do. lol
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wab wrote: Mon May 09, 2022 9:16 am I think even just improving on this seemingly simple thing will help elevate JF1. Losing Robinson may actually be addition by subtraction.
Those are both TDs if Fields throws the ball on time. I've never been as high on Robinson as some, and I don't like how he seemed to check out last season. But these here are examples of the QB leaving his WR spinning his wheels, not the WR letting his QB down.
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karhu wrote: Mon May 09, 2022 11:28 am
wab wrote: Mon May 09, 2022 9:16 am I think even just improving on this seemingly simple thing will help elevate JF1. Losing Robinson may actually be addition by subtraction.
Those are both TDs if Fields throws the ball on time. I've never been as high on Robinson as some, and I don't like how he seemed to check out last season. But these here are examples of the QB leaving his WR spinning his wheels, not the WR letting his QB down.
Did you even watch the clip? Fields was scrambling from pressure and bought some time to make a throw but Robinson stopped running.
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TheWorldBreaker wrote: Mon May 09, 2022 12:11 pm
karhu wrote: Mon May 09, 2022 11:28 am

Those are both TDs if Fields throws the ball on time. I've never been as high on Robinson as some, and I don't like how he seemed to check out last season. But these here are examples of the QB leaving his WR spinning his wheels, not the WR letting his QB down.
Did you even watch the clip? Fields was scrambling from pressure and bought some time to make a throw but Robinson stopped running.
Aw, shoot, guess I should've watched the thing bef-

Of course I watched it. Relived it, more like. He had time, just got happy feet and didn't pull the trigger when he needed to. By the time he did, Robinson was running straight into a safety...and probably figured that the play was broken if he'd had time to get that far downfield.

Put it another way: he didn't break off his route. The route was over. He was looking back to see what the play had become, and then--whoa!

I think some of us are indulging in Lost Cause-ism by now.
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karhu wrote: Mon May 09, 2022 12:25 pm
TheWorldBreaker wrote: Mon May 09, 2022 12:11 pm

Did you even watch the clip? Fields was scrambling from pressure and bought some time to make a throw but Robinson stopped running.
Aw, shoot, guess I should've watched the thing bef-

Of course I watched it. Relived it, more like. He had time, just got happy feet and didn't pull the trigger when he needed to. By the time he did, Robinson was running straight into a safety...and probably figured that the play was broken if he'd had time to get that far downfield.

Put it another way: he didn't break off his route. The route was over. He was looking back to see what the play had become, and then--whoa!

I think some of us are indulging in Lost Cause-ism by now.
If the play isn’t over you don’t stop running. There is no end of a route—if your QB is scrambling when you should have normally got the ball the basic rule of all scramble drills is to make yourself available to the QB.

And the defensive linemen has his man beat inside, maybe he could have gotten it off and taken a hit but it doesn’t matter because there are no excuses for a WR to stop running a route when the QB has the ball in his hands.
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karhu wrote: Mon May 09, 2022 11:28 am
wab wrote: Mon May 09, 2022 9:16 am I think even just improving on this seemingly simple thing will help elevate JF1. Losing Robinson may actually be addition by subtraction.
Those are both TDs if Fields throws the ball on time. I've never been as high on Robinson as some, and I don't like how he seemed to check out last season. But these here are examples of the QB leaving his WR spinning his wheels, not the WR letting his QB down.
Weird take.
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TheWorldBreaker wrote: Mon May 09, 2022 12:43 pm
If the play isn’t over you don’t stop running. There is no end of a route—if your QB is scrambling when you should have normally got the ball the basic rule of all scramble drills is to make yourself available to the QB.

And the defensive linemen has his man beat inside, maybe he could have gotten it off and taken a hit but it doesn’t matter because there are no excuses for a WR to stop running a route when the QB has the ball in his hands.
Robinson didn't do much on either play after the window closed. That kind of piss-poor effort is a big reason why I didn't want him back.

At the same time, both of those routes got him open and then got him covered. It's entirely reasonable IMSO for him to figure that the play went elsewhere. Again, he didn't look very hard for work, and that's on him. Not throwing him the ball when he was coming open is on Fields.
Last edited by karhu on Mon May 09, 2022 1:23 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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wab wrote: Mon May 09, 2022 12:51 pm
karhu wrote: Mon May 09, 2022 11:28 am

Those are both TDs if Fields throws the ball on time. I've never been as high on Robinson as some, and I don't like how he seemed to check out last season. But these here are examples of the QB leaving his WR spinning his wheels, not the WR letting his QB down.
Weird take.
How so?
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TheWorldBreaker wrote: Mon May 09, 2022 12:43 pm
If the play isn’t over you don’t stop running. There is no end of a route—if your QB is scrambling when you should have normally got the ball the basic rule of all scramble drills is to make yourself available to the QB.
The end of the formal route,. then? Robinson didn't necessarily know that Fields was scrambling, just that the play, like most plays, didn't go to him. If it was going to him, he'd have had the ball in his hands. Wish he'd been more decisive and less of a putz, but as it happens that would probably have only made things worse. I mean, there's precious little a receiver can do when he's an extra 20 yards downfield and double-covered instead of wide open.

Robinson should have known that Fields is slow to pull the trigger. Fields needs to be quicker to pull the trigger. Those two things aren't mutually exclusive.
And the defensive linemen has his man beat inside, maybe he could have gotten it off and taken a hit but it doesn’t matter because there are no excuses for a WR to stop running a route when the QB has the ball in his hands.
Oh, come on. He had time, and we've seen plenty of QBs throw successfully under far more pressure. If he throws it on time, there's no question of what Robinson does after the effective part of the route--the part in which he was open to receive a pass--ends.
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Regardless of who wins this retrospective debate, the point in the original post is spot on.

The chemistry needs to improve and with decent coaching and less QB pressure we will have a chance of seeing it.

Good post Wab :clap:
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wab wrote: Mon May 09, 2022 12:51 pm Weird take.
I brought some of the recent Fields back-and-forth to my response, and shouldn't have.

That said, chemistry didn't strike me as the obvious problem in the examples you cited. With better chemistry (and a better attitude), Robinson knows to keep looking for the ball even when his route is taking him back into coverage. Which would have given each of those plays a chance, but not anything close to their best chance.
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TheWorldBreaker wrote: Mon May 09, 2022 12:43 pm
karhu wrote: Mon May 09, 2022 12:25 pm

Aw, shoot, guess I should've watched the thing bef-

Of course I watched it. Relived it, more like. He had time, just got happy feet and didn't pull the trigger when he needed to. By the time he did, Robinson was running straight into a safety...and probably figured that the play was broken if he'd had time to get that far downfield.

Put it another way: he didn't break off his route. The route was over. He was looking back to see what the play had become, and then--whoa!

I think some of us are indulging in Lost Cause-ism by now.
If the play isn’t over you don’t stop running. There is no end of a route—if your QB is scrambling when you should have normally got the ball the basic rule of all scramble drills is to make yourself available to the QB.

And the defensive linemen has his man beat inside, maybe he could have gotten it off and taken a hit but it doesn’t matter because there are no excuses for a WR to stop running a route when the QB has the ball in his hands.
This.

You play until the whistle blows. I think ARob mentally checked out because the season was going south and he couldn't handle the pressure of it being a contract year.

The TD that went through his hands was incompetence. The TD that should've been was due to his laziness.

Either way it's not a player we need on our team let alone at $15M per year or whatever he got paid. He doesn't fit Coach's new style of max effort.
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ARob was a POS last year, and that's not even considering his BS blocking that he's had for the last few years.

I've never been a receiver, but I'm sorry Karhu, even I know that you don't stop your route in the middle of it. Both of those routes had ARob breaking free. You do NOT stop. That's just crazy. The only reason he was covered in either of them was because he did stop.

I'm glad he's gone. I think the Rams are going to regret having him rather than Woods.
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I seem to remember another play where Arob's Defender fell down - the full hand up throw it!!!! and nothing from Fields.

Could that be chemistry - like Arob just wasn't his priority read?

Could be.

Is Arob similar to any WR Fields ever played with? No. So that could be part of the chemistry

Part of the reason I liked the Jones pick - He isn't a Larry Fitzgerald type route runner. But when he beats you he beats you Ike Turner style and even Fields can work with that in under 4 Seconds
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Yogi da Bear wrote: Mon May 09, 2022 3:31 pm ARob was a POS last year, and that's not even considering his BS blocking that he's had for the last few years.

I've never been a receiver, but I'm sorry Karhu, even I know that you don't stop your route in the middle of it. Both of those routes had ARob breaking free. You do NOT stop. That's just crazy. The only reason he was covered in either of them was because he did stop.

I'm glad he's gone. I think the Rams are going to regret having him rather than Woods.
No argument there--I anted up by calling Robinson a putz a few posts back.

I just don't think that chemistry is to blame in the examples shared here, or on any number of similar plays from last year. What I see is a QB who's uncomfortable with what the play is asking him to do. Specifically, reading coverages quickly enough to anticipate when guys will come open, and throwing the ball just as they begin to, or even a tick before. That's nothing to do with Nagy, really, or the receivers--every system is going to ask him to do that, including Getsy's.

Chemistry would seem to be a function of how reliably receivers are where they're supposed to be. If Fields needs to see major separation before he feels comfortable throwing the ball, the major adjustment is his to make, not the receivers'.
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HurricaneBear wrote: Mon May 09, 2022 9:29 am There's also the one that went right between Arobs arms in the end zone. Forgot which game. But god how can a good player play just so damn bad in a contract year?
I'd call it playing "butt hurt" but that's not a legit excuse for what we saw from ARob in 2021 and he cost himself millions.

We may never know all of why Pace failed to extend ARob other than perhaps the feeling that Mooney was gonna be his new top WR but he should also have realized that having traded away his 2022 1st round pick on Fields any chance of getting one of the top rookie WR was moot.
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Fields is capable of chucking the ball. The WR's knew this. They were either poorly coached or they just gave up on the play.
A WR never stops running unless that is what they are supposed to do on a specific route or the whistle blows.
On a broken play you stay on your route, you shade your route towards the QB, or you trail the scrambling QB as is practiced. Most coaches will throw in a simmed broken play or two during the offseason just so everyone knows that hey "this" is what we do.
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Fields and Mooney had chemistry last year. Fields has been working with Mooney and Kmet during the offseason. Sounds like Jones wants to establish chemistry with Fields; the Bears are obviously promoting it by having their lockers side-by-side. St. Brown and Pringle need to work with Fields as much as possible before the season.

Arob phoned it in too much last season (besides being a poor blocker). His contract situation with the Bears, rather than motivating him, seemed to have the opposite effect.
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Seems like Fields and Horsted had some chemisty too, but that was not given much of a chance. Hope to see it developed more in TC this year and into the regular season.
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karhu wrote: Mon May 09, 2022 11:55 pm
Yogi da Bear wrote: Mon May 09, 2022 3:31 pm ARob was a POS last year, and that's not even considering his BS blocking that he's had for the last few years.

I've never been a receiver, but I'm sorry Karhu, even I know that you don't stop your route in the middle of it. Both of those routes had ARob breaking free. You do NOT stop. That's just crazy. The only reason he was covered in either of them was because he did stop.

I'm glad he's gone. I think the Rams are going to regret having him rather than Woods.
No argument there--I anted up by calling Robinson a putz a few posts back.

I just don't think that chemistry is to blame in the examples shared here, or on any number of similar plays from last year. What I see is a QB who's uncomfortable with what the play is asking him to do. Specifically, reading coverages quickly enough to anticipate when guys will come open, and throwing the ball just as they begin to, or even a tick before. That's nothing to do with Nagy, really, or the receivers--every system is going to ask him to do that, including Getsy's.

Chemistry would seem to be a function of how reliably receivers are where they're supposed to be. If Fields needs to see major separation before he feels comfortable throwing the ball, the major adjustment is his to make, not the receivers'.
Excellent post - better and more tactful than I could have stated it.
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To be fair, on the plays in question, we don't know whether AROB was Fields 1st or 2nd read. It's easy to assume he missed him when he initially came open - however, Fields also seemed to GENERALLY wait a tick or two too long for his 1st read to comp open. Still, the best QBs seem to see the entire field and, regardless of who the 1st read is, quickly adjust and find the (soon to be) open receiver. That isn't Justin Fields.

That said, even if Fields blew the initial reads, when he started scrambling, it wasn't unfair or unreasonable to expect AROB to keep running. I BELIEVE that's a given with scramble drills. One small example of how this is done was Mooney's go ahead TD in Pittsburgh - he was initially stymied - but, when he saw Fields move to his left, Mooney adjusted and ran to an open spot. AROB didn't do that here - i.e. he didn't help his rookie QB.
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artbest01 wrote: Tue May 10, 2022 10:00 am To be fair, on the plays in question, we don't know whether AROB was Fields 1st or 2nd read. It's easy to assume he missed him when he initially came open - however, Fields also seemed to GENERALLY wait a tick or two too long for his 1st read to comp open. Still, the best QBs seem to see the entire field and, regardless of who the 1st read is, quickly adjust and find the (soon to be) open receiver. That isn't Justin Fields.

That said, even if Fields blew the initial reads, when he started scrambling, it wasn't unfair or unreasonable to expect AROB to keep running. I BELIEVE that's a given with scramble drills. One small example of how this is done was Mooney's go ahead TD in Pittsburgh - he was initially stymied - but, when he saw Fields move to his left, Mooney adjusted and ran to an open spot. AROB didn't do that here - i.e. he didn't help his rookie QB.
Fair enough on the scramble drill stuff

I actually point to a counter narrative I heard on Brady/Manning types - There was a play where the Defender fell down injured and the stud QB didn't get them to ball for what would have been a key 3rd Down

Reason: In the presnap the identified the right defense even before the snap. And the defense was going to essentially take that player off the board - So his best 2-3 options were elsewhere immediately - so he never looked over at what should have already been eliminated

You are never going to believe this! - but I dont think Fields is reading the Defense at quite that level
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karhu wrote: Mon May 09, 2022 11:55 pm
Yogi da Bear wrote: Mon May 09, 2022 3:31 pm ARob was a POS last year, and that's not even considering his BS blocking that he's had for the last few years.

I've never been a receiver, but I'm sorry Karhu, even I know that you don't stop your route in the middle of it. Both of those routes had ARob breaking free. You do NOT stop. That's just crazy. The only reason he was covered in either of them was because he did stop.

I'm glad he's gone. I think the Rams are going to regret having him rather than Woods.
No argument there--I anted up by calling Robinson a putz a few posts back.

I just don't think that chemistry is to blame in the examples shared here, or on any number of similar plays from last year. What I see is a QB who's uncomfortable with what the play is asking him to do. Specifically, reading coverages quickly enough to anticipate when guys will come open, and throwing the ball just as they begin to, or even a tick before. That's nothing to do with Nagy, really, or the receivers--every system is going to ask him to do that, including Getsy's.

Chemistry would seem to be a function of how reliably receivers are where they're supposed to be. If Fields needs to see major separation before he feels comfortable throwing the ball, the major adjustment is his to make, not the receivers'.
I think that's a fair assessment, one of the things Fields has to work on and quite possibly has prepared himself for via some film study. It's a habit he has to shed left over from college where his receivers were generally wide open as compared to the tighter coverages and more complex NFL zone schemes. If he can learn to read a defense pre and post snap it's fixable.

The rest will come from developing the necessary rapport with all of his receivers. He needs to know where to expect his guys to make their breaks or when they will extend their routes and they need to do that dependably. That takes time and practice. The kind of time and practice he never got last summer when Nagy was insisting Dalton would be his #1 and got most of the reps.
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I don’t know why we would expect Fields to have any chemistry with the first team as he didn’t practice with them last off season. Dalton was Nagy’s “QB1”.

It’s just Nagy being Nagy
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Bearfacts wrote: Tue May 10, 2022 11:19 am
The rest will come from developing the necessary rapport with all of his receivers. He needs to know where to expect his guys to make their breaks or when they will extend their routes and they need to do that dependably. That takes time and practice. The kind of time and practice he never got last summer when Nagy was insisting Dalton would be his #1 and got most of the reps.
His mechanics also figure into all of this, which is why I was so happy to see his new throwing motion. For that matter, I didn't mind the fact that we sat him behind Dalton at first, I'm just infuriated that Nagy didn't use that time to shorten up Fields' motion and get him in position to throw when he needed to.

In the examples we're looking at here, it seems at first like Fields senses pressure before it's really there. But he might've had a good point. He was painfully deliberate most of last season, almost as if he saw the play, made his reads, then went through a checklist before he threw the ball, from getting his feet set to winding up and delivering. If you know it's going to take you a while to get rid of the ball, pressure only needs to be close to be a concern.

Without a more compact, fluid, and coordinated throwing style, the finer points--like how guys get out of their breaks, and what Fields can trust as visual evidence that he's got a window to throw to--won't matter as much as they should. It looks like we've got some reason to hope that he'll be able to tackle some of those details one training camp late (better than never).
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I think we'll see a lot more timing-based routes as well, especially slants. Should help Fields get into a rhythm.

We'll see... I thought it was odd hearing Luke Getsy talking about looking at tape "from 2010". What the hell was he looking at -- Mike McCarthy installs from the Packers' Super Bowl season?
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karhu wrote: Tue May 10, 2022 12:11 pm
Bearfacts wrote: Tue May 10, 2022 11:19 am
The rest will come from developing the necessary rapport with all of his receivers. He needs to know where to expect his guys to make their breaks or when they will extend their routes and they need to do that dependably. That takes time and practice. The kind of time and practice he never got last summer when Nagy was insisting Dalton would be his #1 and got most of the reps.
His mechanics also figure into all of this, which is why I was so happy to see his new throwing motion. For that matter, I didn't mind the fact that we sat him behind Dalton at first, I'm just infuriated that Nagy didn't use that time to shorten up Fields' motion and get him in position to throw when he needed to.

In the examples we're looking at here, it seems at first like Fields senses pressure before it's really there. But he might've had a good point. He was painfully deliberate most of last season, almost as if he saw the play, made his reads, then went through a checklist before he threw the ball, from getting his feet set to winding up and delivering. If you know it's going to take you a while to get rid of the ball, pressure only needs to be close to be a concern.

Without a more compact, fluid, and coordinated throwing style, the finer points--like how guys get out of their breaks, and what Fields can trust as visual evidence that he's got a window to throw to--won't matter as much as they should. It looks like we've got some reason to hope that he'll be able to tackle some of those details one training camp late (better than never).
It's pretty apparent that Pace made a huge mistake in believing Nagy could be his "QB Whisperer". He failed to develop Mitch into a consistently successful NFL starting QB and from the looks of it did not coaching at all with Fields. He installed a look a like KC offense without the staff and players he needed to make it successful and refused to adapt when it didn't work.

Much like with Mitch an entire season was wasted on Fields development but unlike Mitch I believe Fields has the talent, the confidence, and the commitment to overcome that easily enough. He's already spent much of the offseason working on his mechanics and his release. Following that he got together with Mooney and Kmet to tighten up their relationship.

It's getting more difficult to face each new season with any optimism but at least for now this time it does feel different. For years the Bears tried to link whatever they had to whatever they could bring in to patch up the issues with what they had. This time Poles told GMcC you have bupkis here and we need to start over again but do it the right way this time.

We still have no idea whether or not it will work out but at least this time we seem to have solved our perennial QB problem. One that's haunted us since the very short career of Jim McMahon. Fields basic abilities check all the boxes. If Getsy and Janocko can get his head pointed in the right direction and clean up his mechanics we may finally have our franchise QB.
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Bearfacts wrote: Tue May 10, 2022 2:41 pm
karhu wrote: Tue May 10, 2022 12:11 pm

His mechanics also figure into all of this, which is why I was so happy to see his new throwing motion. For that matter, I didn't mind the fact that we sat him behind Dalton at first, I'm just infuriated that Nagy didn't use that time to shorten up Fields' motion and get him in position to throw when he needed to.

In the examples we're looking at here, it seems at first like Fields senses pressure before it's really there. But he might've had a good point. He was painfully deliberate most of last season, almost as if he saw the play, made his reads, then went through a checklist before he threw the ball, from getting his feet set to winding up and delivering. If you know it's going to take you a while to get rid of the ball, pressure only needs to be close to be a concern.

Without a more compact, fluid, and coordinated throwing style, the finer points--like how guys get out of their breaks, and what Fields can trust as visual evidence that he's got a window to throw to--won't matter as much as they should. It looks like we've got some reason to hope that he'll be able to tackle some of those details one training camp late (better than never).
It's pretty apparent that Pace made a huge mistake in believing Nagy could be his "QB Whisperer". He failed to develop Mitch into a consistently successful NFL starting QB and from the looks of it did no coaching at all with Fields. He installed a look a like KC offense without the staff and players he needed to make it successful and refused to adapt when it didn't work.

Much like with Mitch an entire season was wasted on Fields development but unlike Mitch I believe Fields has the talent, the confidence, and the commitment to overcome that easily enough. He's already spent much of the offseason working on his mechanics and his release. Following that he got together with Mooney and Kmet to tighten up their relationship.

It's getting more difficult to face each new season with any optimism but at least for now this time it does feel different. For years the Bears tried to link whatever they had to whatever they could bring in to patch up the issues with what they had. This time Poles told GMcC you have bupkis here and we need to start over again but do it the right way this time.

We still have no idea whether or not it will work out but at least this time we seem to have solved our perennial QB problem. One that's haunted us since the very short career of Jim McMahon. Fields basic abilities check all the boxes. If Getsy and Janocko can get his head pointed in the right direction and clean up his mechanics we may finally have our franchise QB.
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