State of the OL Competitions

[Bearfacts]

If he played at Ohio State he’d have been a backup to Petit-Frere.

Says you......but he didn't so we'll file this in plank's opinion file.

Dane Brugler had Petit-Frere ranked as the 9th best OT in this draft and Braxton Jones ranked 11th. Based only on measurables Jones ranks higher but OSU played against better competition so Petit-Frere got the higher ranking. Petit-Frere went in the 3rd as projected whereas Jones went a round later than projected in the 5th and I believe that was also due to where he played.

https://cdn.theathletic.com/app/uploads ... uide-6.pdf

[RichH55]

If he played at Ohio State he’d have been a backup to Petit-Frere.

Says you......but he didn't so we'll file this in plank's opinion file.

Dane Brugler had Petit-Frere ranked as the 9th best OT in this draft and Braxton Jones ranked 11th. Based only on measurables Jones ranks higher but OSU played against better competition so Petit-Frere got the higher ranking. Petit-Frere went in the 3rd as projected whereas Jones went a round later than projected in the 5th and I believe that was also due to where he played.

https://cdn.theathletic.com/app/uploads ... uide-6.pdf

It is an opinion that has the virtue of being supported by logic and reason though.

Most likely they both would have played this last year - but our guy would have been RT.

[Bearfacts]

Says you......but he didn't so we'll file this in plank's opinion file.

Dane Brugler had Petit-Frere ranked as the 9th best OT in this draft and Braxton Jones ranked 11th. Based only on measurables Jones ranks higher but OSU played against better competition so Petit-Frere got the higher ranking. Petit-Frere went in the 3rd as projected whereas Jones went a round later than projected in the 5th and I believe that was also due to where he played.

https://cdn.theathletic.com/app/uploads ... uide-6.pdf

It is an opinion that has the virtue of being supported by logic and reason though.

Most likely they both would have played this last year - but our guy would have been RT.

Maybe but then we'll never know because it never happened. Not worth the debate.

[dplank]

If it's not worth the debate because it never happened, then why did you make this comment?

If he'd played somewhere like Ohio State he's probably a 3rd round pick.

These are the types of logical flaws that get me going.

[o-pus #40 in B major]

It is an opinion that has the virtue of being supported by logic and reason though.

Most likely they both would have played this last year - but our guy would have been RT.

Maybe but then we'll never know because it never happened. Not worth the debate.

What an entirely refreshing point of view. Thanks, Bearfacts!

[Ditka’s dictaphone]

Maybe but then we'll never know because it never happened. Not worth the debate.

What an entirely refreshing point of view. Thanks, Bearfacts!

[Bearfacts]

Maybe but then we'll never know because it never happened. Not worth the debate.

What an entirely refreshing point of view. Thanks, Bearfacts!

If Rich enjoys discussing the imaginary I'll just let him "imagine" I'm debating with him while I go on about my business elsewhere.

[IE]

If it's not worth the debate because it never happened, then why did you make this comment?

If he'd played somewhere like Ohio State he's probably a 3rd round pick.

These are the types of logical flaws that get me going.

There's no reason to be a slave to consistency.

[dave99]

If it's not worth the debate because it never happened, then why did you make this comment?



These are the types of logical flaws that get me going.

There's no reason to be a slave to consistency.

A foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds, adored by little statesmen and philosophers and divines. With consistency a great soul has simply nothing to do. He may as well concern himself with his shadow on the wall.
Ralph Waldo Emerson

[Grizzled]

Kramer at RG? Has he been working there during OTAs? Saw an article that suggested that.

[Atkins&Rebel]

Kramer at RG? Has he been working there during OTAs? Saw an article that suggested that.

Saw a video pop up claiming Deiter was a dark horse to win the RG spot. Says the guy lives in the weight room and his attitude impresses the staff

[IE]

There's no reason to be a slave to consistency.

A foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds, adored by little statesmen and philosophers and divines. With consistency a great soul has simply nothing to do. He may as well concern himself with his shadow on the wall.
Ralph Waldo Emerson

I love that, man. I love torching sacred cows, and also always consider whether I should change my mind before I defend my take.

I hate arbitrary conservatism or resistance to change.

We have to avoid being sloppy in our application of foolish consistency, though - as that entire Emerson concept did not mean to advocate for one thing and doing another at the same time. It was about not holding fast to outdated or disproved ideas, and not worry about being misunderstood by the foolishly consistent as you develop a better understanding or viewpoint or model or whatever.

[The Marshall Plan]

Kramer at RG? Has he been working there during OTAs? Saw an article that suggested that.

He's a little lanky, but I say let's try it.

[dplank]

A foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds, adored by little statesmen and philosophers and divines. With consistency a great soul has simply nothing to do. He may as well concern himself with his shadow on the wall.
Ralph Waldo Emerson

I love that, man. I love torching sacred cows, and also always consider whether I should change my mind before I defend my take.

I hate arbitrary conservatism or resistance to change.

We have to avoid being sloppy in our application of foolish consistency, though - as that entire Emerson concept did not mean to advocate for one thing and doing another at the same time. It was about not holding fast to outdated or disproved ideas, and not worry about being misunderstood by the foolishly consistent as you develop a better understanding or viewpoint or model or whatever.

Agree completely, and have the receipts to prove it! I think this thought is being misapplied to this thread through. You can't in one post posit a hypothetical, then just 3 posts later rip someone else for addressing that very hypothetical and say hypotheticals don't apply. That's not resistance to change, that's just disingenuous.

[Bearfacts]

If it's not worth the debate because it never happened, then why did you make this comment?

If he'd played somewhere like Ohio State he's probably a 3rd round pick.

These are the types of logical flaws that get me going.

What flawed logic? You claimed Jones would have backed up Petit-Frere at OSU. I challenged that as being your opinion showing that they ranked very much the same by one draft guide. My opinion was that Jones may have been drafted higher if he'd played against a higher level of competition in college. Both of us offered an opinion. That's it.

And WTF is it with you guys and all this "flawed logic" bullshit? Tell me why YOU believe my logic is flawed oh master of all that's logical? Ya' know something? You need to listen to Ms. Plank more often. She's hinting at something and you ain't listening.

[Bearfacts]

If it's not worth the debate because it never happened, then why did you make this comment?

If he'd played somewhere like Ohio State he's probably a 3rd round pick.

These are the types of logical flaws that get me going.

And to this my response is why in the phuc would I want to debate something that never happened? You and Rich want to claim that's logical? OK, why don't we have a separate forum where we can debate all kinds of things that never happened like maybe.

What if Elvis is still alive? Would he still be selling out in Las Vegas?

If JFK Jr. didn't die would he be a GOP now and not a Democrat?

If Marc Trestman had only been given one more year would he have been able to succeed?

Does any of that seem logical to you?

Tell me. What's logical about debating the imaginary. Maybe if you let me get good and stoned I could do it but otherwise..... nah.

[Heinz D.]

Kramer at RG? Has he been working there during OTAs? Saw an article that suggested that.

I'm sure he has been working there, but I don't think anyone has revealed how much time any particular guy is getting in the different lineups.

[dplank]

If it's not worth the debate because it never happened, then why did you make this comment?



These are the types of logical flaws that get me going.

And to this my response is why in the phuc would I want to debate something that never happened? You and Rich want to claim that's logical? OK, why don't we have a separate forum where we can debate all kinds of things that never happened like maybe.

What if Elvis is still alive? Would he still be selling out in Las Vegas?

If JFK Jr. didn't die would he be a GOP now and not a Democrat?

If Marc Trestman had only been given one more year would he have been able to succeed?

Does any of that seem logical to you?

Tell me. What's logical about debating the imaginary. Maybe if you let me get good and stoned I could do it but otherwise..... nah.

Why did you bring it up to begin with then?

[Yogi da Bear]

Remember, as I write this, I had Petit-Frere in the late second in my Picnic Basket. Now, I don't know who would have won the LT competition at Ohio State, but I do know that Jones bests him in nearly every single measurable metric:

https://www.nfldraftbuzz.com/Player/sta ... uthernUtah

https://www.nfldraftbuzz.com/Player/sta ... -OhioState

And Jones has a significant advantage that Poles puts much store by--height, arm length, and span:

https://www.nfldraftbuzz.com/Player/Bra ... uthernUtah

https://www.nfldraftbuzz.com/Player/Nic ... -OhioState

Despite my Picnic Basket, I'm actually much happier with Jones than Petit-Frere. And in truth DP, you weren't being fair to Facts. He didn't bring up the comparison, you did. Facts was simply saying that if Jones had played for a major university with better competition, he would have gone much higher in the draft, and he only brought up Ohio State as an example. DP, you were being kind of dick when you said Jones would haven't seen the field behind Petit-Frere. You completely missed Facts' point.

Now, having said all this, I've been watching as much tape of Jones as I could find recently, and Facts' initial point takes on even a broader dimension. Not only would he have benefitted from facing and proving himself against better competition, he would have also benefitted from learning from a more accomplished coaching staff.

In reviewing Jones, he really needs to work on technique that he should have learned in college and probably would have with better coaching. He needs work on his punch, as he tends to fall back on his heels. He needs to bend at his knees more and not lean at his waist. Right now, because he does this, he's able to be bull rushed back to the QB. Chris Morgan has his work cut out for him, as does our strength and conditioning staff, as although Jones shows good upper body strength, as his reps attests, he really needs to work on his base. Lots and lots of squats.

I don't know if they can accomplish this by the start of the season, but I feel by next year, if not later this year, Jones is going to be even a more viable LT prospect than Petit-Frere. He has all the measurables. He's certainly a far better prospect than Charles Leno ever was, and Leno started by Year 2. Jones was an excellent find by Poles.

[Heinz D.]

Remember, as I write this, I had Petit-Frere in the late second in my Picnic Basket. Now, I don't know who would have won the LT competition at Ohio State, but I do know that Jones bests him in nearly every single measurable metric:

https://www.nfldraftbuzz.com/Player/sta ... uthernUtah

https://www.nfldraftbuzz.com/Player/sta ... -OhioState

And Jones has a significant advantage that Poles puts much store by--height, arm length, and span:

https://www.nfldraftbuzz.com/Player/Bra ... uthernUtah

https://www.nfldraftbuzz.com/Player/Nic ... -OhioState

Despite my Picnic Basket, I'm actually much happier with Jones than Petit-Frere. And in truth DP, you weren't being fair to Facts. He didn't bring up the comparison, you did. Facts was simply saying that if Jones had played for a major university with better competition, he would have gone much higher in the draft, and he only brought up Ohio State as an example. DP, you were being kind of dick when you said Jones would haven't seen the field behind Petit-Frere. You completely missed Facts' point.

Now, having said all this, I've been watching as much tape of Jones as I could find recently, and Facts' initial point takes on even a broader dimension. Not only would he have benefitted from facing and proving himself against better competition, he would have also benefitted from learning from a more accomplished coaching staff.

In reviewing Jones, he really needs to work on technique that he should have learned in college and probably would have with better coaching. He needs work on his punch, as he tends to fall back on his heels. He needs to bend at his knees more and not lean at his waist. Right now, because he does this, he's able to be bull rushed back to the QB. Chris Morgan has his work cut out for him, as does our strength and conditioning staff, as although Jones shows good upper body strength, as his reps attests, he really needs to work on his base. Lots and lots of squats.

I don't know if they can accomplish this by the start of the season, but I feel by next year, if not later this year, Jones is going to be even a more viable LT prospect than Petit-Frere. He has all the measurables. He's certainly a far better prospect than Charles Leno ever was, and Leno started by Year 2. Jones was an excellent find by Poles.

[dplank]

Yogi he brought up the hypothetical. Then when I questioned it, said he’s not going to argue about hypotheticals. Maybe I was being a dick but he seemed to be asking for it. I’ll move on,

I wish a shared your guys optimism, I really do. But guys, 32 NFL GMs just said what they think. Jones went late, at a premium position, for a reason. Any one of those 32 GMs could’ve taken him higher but didn’t. Odds are what they are on him being a good player, I’ll hope he beats the long odds and becomes one but I’m not counting on it.

[thunderspirit]

It's a fair cop that any 5th round pick remains a long shot to be a major contributor.

I'll take the chance on a 5th rounder with excellent physical tools and a mean streak, to be sure. But that and three fiddy will get you a cup of coffee.

[Heinz D.]

Yogi he brought up the hypothetical. Then when I questioned it, said he’s not going to argue about hypotheticals. Maybe I was being a dick but he seemed to be asking for it. I’ll move on,

I wish a shared your guys optimism, I really do. But guys, 32 NFL GMs just said what they think. Jones went late, at a premium position, for a reason. Any one of those 32 GMs could’ve taken him higher but didn’t. Odds are what they are on him being a good player, I’ll hope he beats the long odds and becomes one but I’m not counting on it.

Borom's probably the starter. Hopefully Jones can challenge that at some point, or vie for the swing position...maybe right off the bat.

The whole "deference to authority" counter argument, especially in a situation such as this one, is ridiculous. Good linemen are found in the later rounds all the time. The Kansas City Chiefs, who Poles was employed by until recently, just relied on some later round guys to make a serviceable line. Our division rivals, the Green Bay Packers, have also done the same.

Let's take it one further---30 teams all said what they felt about Tom Brady, right? How about Richard Dent?

Yeah, there's a "reason" Jones went late, actually there are more than one, but that doesn't mean he'll end up being a bad player.

[Yogi da Bear]

Yogi he brought up the hypothetical. Then when I questioned it, said he’s not going to argue about hypotheticals. Maybe I was being a dick but he seemed to be asking for it. I’ll move on,

I wish a shared your guys optimism, I really do. But guys, 32 NFL GMs just said what they think. Jones went late, at a premium position, for a reason. Any one of those 32 GMs could’ve taken him higher but didn’t. Odds are what they are on him being a good player, I’ll hope he beats the long odds and becomes one but I’m not counting on it.

I appreciate you moving on. Makes sense. I just wanted to mention something in passing. I really don't think it was meant as an actual hypothetical, certainly not a specific one. I don't think he even considered Petit-Frere when he mentioned Ohio State. I think he was just saying a big school off the top of his head. He could just as easily have said Michigan, Oregon, Florida or any of a host of other schools. His whole point was that if he went to a larger school with their facilities (implied) and their regular competition (more explicit) that he would have been a much higher pick. And I think he's probably correct on that. I don't think he was actually trying to compare Jones to Petit-Frere. You did that.

Just my reading as I was going through it.

As to your concern, I share it after reviewing a lot of his tape. He does let himself get pushed back with a bull rush. He needs a much stronger anchor. His bench is really good for a guy with his length. I wonder what he squats though. And he needs to develop a more effective punch. But he definitely has the speed to make those reach blocks that the Bears are looking for and the length to protect the edge. It's just his anchor I'm really concerned about. Until that can be fixed, he's not going to be ready for the NFL. But once it is, he has the chance to be something really special.

[dplank]

Historically the odds are about 1 in 5. I’m not saying hitting that one is impossible, it happens. You guys just seem awful confident given those odds. My concern isn’t rooted from watching tape, I don’t pretend to be a scout. Its from historical stats.

I don’t like the idea of thinking we are good to go with this OL for 2022. I’d really like to sign a decent vet. Any other position but OL I’m happy to roll with youth and see who can play, just not OL - protecting Fields is too important.

[IE]

I think post-draft with a full understanding of the exact player and the exact context, we should stop using generic historic odds of a given pick being successful. Guys slip and positional depth is different from draft to draft, and the team and opportunity can make a difference. Especially in later rounds where teams are taking developmental players or drafting to fill need (whether they should or not). And also there are very bad GMs that come & go - and they skew the drafts for a few years at a time. For example, the Bear GMs have spent a lot of time causing quality players to fall more. LOL

I think if we're talking about Braxton Jones we have to look specifically at him and the situation and base our expectations of whether he'll be successful. Given is physical makeup, clear intelligence and also the opportunity in front of him in terms of timing and the current depth chart, it seems his likelihood of success is much higher than a generic 5th rounder.

[Bearfacts]

And to this my response is why in the phuc would I want to debate something that never happened? You and Rich want to claim that's logical? OK, why don't we have a separate forum where we can debate all kinds of things that never happened like maybe.

What if Elvis is still alive? Would he still be selling out in Las Vegas?

If JFK Jr. didn't die would he be a GOP now and not a Democrat?

If Marc Trestman had only been given one more year would he have been able to succeed?

Does any of that seem logical to you?

Tell me. What's logical about debating the imaginary. Maybe if you let me get good and stoned I could do it but otherwise..... nah.

Why did you bring it up to begin with then?

That's already been answered so stop being a prick and go away.

[Ditka’s dictaphone]

After wathing this I'm already sure any of the rookies can beat out Dakota Dozier. If I hadn't seen it with my own eyes I couldn't believe he sacked his own QB?!

Why is it always the Vikings who have a player that does something that people will remember forever. Just hit the YouTube link.

legend

[RichH55]

If it's not worth the debate because it never happened, then why did you make this comment?



These are the types of logical flaws that get me going.

And to this my response is why in the phuc would I want to debate something that never happened? You and Rich want to claim that's logical? OK, why don't we have a separate forum where we can debate all kinds of things that never happened like maybe.

What if Elvis is still alive? Would he still be selling out in Las Vegas?

If JFK Jr. didn't die would he be a GOP now and not a Democrat?

If Marc Trestman had only been given one more year would he have been able to succeed?

Does any of that seem logical to you?

Tell me. What's logical about debating the imaginary. Maybe if you let me get good and stoned I could do it but otherwise..... nah.

Sorry that logic apparently murdered someone in your family

My condolences

[Bearfacts]

And to this my response is why in the phuc would I want to debate something that never happened? You and Rich want to claim that's logical? OK, why don't we have a separate forum where we can debate all kinds of things that never happened like maybe.

What if Elvis is still alive? Would he still be selling out in Las Vegas?

If JFK Jr. didn't die would he be a GOP now and not a Democrat?

If Marc Trestman had only been given one more year would he have been able to succeed?

Does any of that seem logical to you?

Tell me. What's logical about debating the imaginary. Maybe if you let me get good and stoned I could do it but otherwise..... nah.

Sorry that logic apparently murdered someone in your family

My condolences

You have the capability of being one of the most intelligent posters here yet you keep wasting your time being a prick by baiting me so.....

Sorry for the brevity but it's all you're worth.