New WRs Pettis and Sharpe highlights

[dplank]

I suppose the difference between us is that I can feel a certain way right now but at the same time be aware that I might be wrong. Poles gets 3 years, period. That doesn’t mean I won’t be gauging his moves along the way. That’s not how gauging job performance works. If our OL and scheme changes are able to keep Fields on his feet this year, then I was wrong and I’ll be happy about it and will say so. I have no issues doing that unlike many. But if he’s protected as poorly as he was last year, then Poles fucked up. And that will be one big mark against him on the evaluation chart. But there are more than one points of evaluation here, and so it’s not make or break for him but it’s also not a good start and a fairly sizable blemish in my view. Again though, we have to see what happens first.

Worth noting: the opinion I currently hold is held by the vast majority of NFL experts league wide. Your welcome to be contrarian and I hope you are right, but casting me as a hater is homerish nonsense. This blind loyalty stuff is why so many clung to Pace and Nagy too long.

Here’s the ledger I have on Poles so far:

Decision to rebuild, dumping Mack et all: Good Move
Coaching Hires: Good Moves, love Getsy in particular
Free Agency: More good than bad, but disagreed with the OGun signing over OL or WR help
Draft: liked the Gordon and Jones picks, but disagreed with not drafting OL or WR with the other 2nd

That’s really all we have to go on so far. Clearly not “out on Poles” already, but have a few issues that we will have to see how they turn out. If you can’t understand this take after laying it out, we’re done here.

[thunderspirit]

FWIW, I disagree with @dplank about more than a few subjects, but generally I don't find him to be knee-jerk or off the deep end.

It's just a disagreement, and while I have taken some things he's said personally (and perhaps should not have), I have never gotten the impression he's being intentionally obtuse or insistent that he's always right.

[IE]

Appeals to the majority or authority don't really cut it. I don't have much respect for offseason narratives and especially the me-too piling on from Twitter & such - no matter who it comes from, or how many. In my view the vast majority of those opinions are high level and based on superficial understanding of the overall situation. I rarely see those folks offering much detail about why they say what they say. It is more along the lines of smug "everyone knows because everyone is saying" confidence. And that is exactly why every year there are surprise teams and most of those narratives don't stand up in the actual season. Especially when there is wholesale change going on for a team in softer, harder-to-assess areas such as scheme, coaching impact and culture. For example, name one of those "experts" that has mentioned the Bears picked up one of the most highly thought-of WR coaches in the league, as opposed to having McNagy's Arena League roommate for a WR coach.

When we watch the breakdowns like Kylo Bearen posted, and we can see why Poles made the moves he did in the draft to get speed (Vay Jones, Eberner) weapons in addition to the big fast ones he already got (Pringle, ESB, Blasingame, Evans). And we can see why he drafted all the athleticism in all those OL picks to make it 6 young guys (not including Patrick, Whitehair, Mustipher and others) they can use to build a unit that can get out on those stretch blocks for the 40-45% of the time they're running the outside zone. I can totally see why Poles wouldn't have any more faith that many proven vets could do what they want, versus the new young bucks. I know I know - we'll see on pass protection... but IMO some of the best pass protection you can get and the best way to slow down the pass rush, is the reality and threat of a strong running game. And it seems like Getsy isn't going to set them up to fail like McNagy did (and he really did - meaning the Oline performance was worse than it should have been).

[dplank]

I agree the national media is mostly just a bunch of narrative following lemmings. I do like Ross Tucker, he's a bit different than most - not a "hot takes for clicks" kind of guy IMO. But as a very general statement, MOST of the time when everyone around the league sees your team as a bunch of scrubs, you are in fact a bunch of scrubs. But they are also wrong frequently, and every single year there are teams that WAY outperform those expectations. Could we be one? Yes! Are the odds in our favor that we will be one? No.

Completely agree with your Tyke Tolbert point - his track record speaks for itself. He may make something out of this unit, we will see. Another valid point re: OL is the McNagy factor - I'm consistent about that, so I put a McNagy factor on every player we had out there from Monty to Mooney (who still did good with McNagy, how good could he be in a better offense!) to each OL player. It could very well turn out that the change in scheme brings out the best in the lineman we already have and we see their performance improve - that would be awesome. My gut tells me that we are still too lacking in talent, and depth, which will expose itself over time - particularly when an injury happens which is guaranteed to happen on the OL at some point - our backups are atrocious. And an injury excuse won't fly with me, because I wanted to sign or draft a starting caliber T and RG, moving guys like Borom to swing tackle and Davenport to 4th string/emergency.

As Thunderspirit said (thanks BTW), I'm not claiming with any certainty that any of this is going to happen. I am saying it makes me uncomfortable and I *think* it's going to be a problem, but we will have to see how it all unfolds. Risk mitigation / disaster planning isn't about being certain that a disaster is about to happen, it's about your level of preparedness if it does happen. My complaint is that Poles is taking some unnecessary risks that could negatively impact Fields development as a player. This POV is echo'd by almost everyone league wide, so it's not some hysterical take - it's just how I see it as do many others. Here's hoping I'm dead wrong!

[thunderspirit]

I agree with anyone who says the OL and WR corps lack a lot of proven performers. That's accurate.
I can't agree with anyone who says they're just plain bad. No one knows that's the case, and no one will know that until September at the earliest.

[Bearfacts]

I agree with anyone who says the OL and WR corps lack a lot of proven performers. That's accurate.
I can't agree with anyone who says they're just plain bad. No one knows that's the case, and no one will know that until September at the earliest.

Ah.....a kindred spirit. When it comes down to it this is exactly what I believe and what I've been saying.

Whether it's sports or politics it's usually the media whose pumping out opinions or analyses often disguised as news (propaganda really) that will either confirm or deny what some other media source has come up with so we as fans or citizens must decide who and/or what to believe. That's pure nonsense.

Why don't we just decide on our own what to believe? In many cases it's because of peer pressure that if you don't believe like I believe you can't be in my club or you aren't true fan or on the flip side you're just an unabashed "homer". It's as if there is no such thing as being neutral or patient. That's not allowed.

Even the Tucker opinion is just one more guy joining a chorus of others shouting the Bears are gonna ruin Justin Fields as if his experiencing the same growing pains the other younger and less experienced guys are will have any more impact on him than it will any other player whose still learning the NFL game.

If any of that is true then IMHO we drafted the wrong QB again......but we didn't. I believe that if anyone can work his way through this it's a kid with the raw talent and physical ability of Fields. Yeah, we do lack proven talent at the moment but how in the hell do we ever get there if we never coach raw talent to develop.

IMHO what Poles is doing IS how you rebuild a team from the ground up. The only reason many don't agree with this is because we've never seen the Bears do it quite like this and that's because despite all evidence to the contrary GMcC continues to deny that it is a rebuild and also why the McCaskey's are lousy owners.

GMcC and Teddy Bears have always preferred selling fans the idea that we're close to winning another title and that we just need one or two more parts to accomplish it. Why else would he have blessed the Mack trade before we even knew that we had a QB who could take us there? But that's always been the way they've run this team.

But this feels different. This time I believe we do have a QB who can take us there and that what we need to do now is get him the right coaching and build a team around his strengths from the ground up. From my perch here in Denver that's what Poles has set out to do but it can't be done in one offseason. We need some patience.

[Arkansasbear]

Do I wish we had more proven talent for the OL and WR spots? Sure. But the real issue to me is the only other move we truly know he made in that regard was Bates. Frankly, if he had been able to pull that move off, I think I'd feel okay about where the OL was. LT would still be up in the air but the iOL and RT I'd feel good about going into the season. We don't know if he made a play at any other OL. but looking at who signed and for how much, who would have been a good addition? This is a serious question. I don't know enough about OL play to say player X at $Y would have fit our system. Then factor in if they would have been a good fit here, would they have signed here for that money?

As far as guys in the draft we could have taken to help the OL with our first 2 picks the only guys we missed out on were OGs Luke Goedeke and Ed Ingram in the second round (both OG) and in the third we missed the C Luke Fortner, OG Ezurfu and OT Petit-Frere and Lucas. I think the guys we took have far more long term potential and immediate potential. I don't see a change at C and OGs can be found later in the draft and feel we have enough bodies to have a shot. As far at Petit-Frere, I liked him a lot and was hoping we'd land him but he went 21 picks after Brisker. I liked Lucas as well but think he is a RT only and we have Jenkins in that spot and I don't think he's a RT either. So I have a hard time faulting Poles with not going OL with our second round picks.

Raimann went shortly after we drafted Jones and he would have been my pick if I was calling the shots. But again I have faith in Poles and he is hopefully right.

As far as FA WRs, again the question is who? I was hoping for Kirk but not for $72M!!!! Robinson at $46.5M???? No. MVS at $30M? Maybe, but our OC who coached him appears to have signed off on his teammate given the dollars in play. I just don't see anyone else out there who signed for smart money that would have moved the needle much.

Poles came to a team that was short on talent and is playing the long game. So many holes he needed to get the best player regardless of position for the most part. I think he's done that.

Pettis and Sharp bring speed and potential. Pretty sure everyone in Carolina was saying why the heck did we sign Steve Smith at 4 years of doing NOTHING for the Cowboys. It worked out well for them and hopefully one of these guys can live up to his potential.

[dplank]

To answer your question, I would say Pace should have done something from this list:

Chark @ 1yr 10M
Landry @ 1yr 3M
JuJu @ 1yr 3M
Moses @ 3yr 15M
Bates @ a higher offer than was made, 6M would have been fine IMO
Armstead @ 5yr 75M (I'd have done that)
Tomlinson @ 3yr 40M (but there's an out after just 1 year and this years cap hit is under 6M)
La'el Collins @ 3 yr 21M (similar, there's an out after 1 year and his cap hit this year is 4.6M)

even a few lesser deals would have made me happier about our depth, guys like Bozeman and Trai Turner went for a pack of Skittles, but are far better than Dozier or Simmons.

I'm far less critical about the WR situation than I am the OL situation. The WR FA market was just wacko.

[Ditka’s dictaphone]

We weren’t really in a position to get ‘much more’ proven talent in those positions because we had few tradable players, limited cap space with some important players needing extensions and no first round draft pick.
So Poles has had to rely on picking out under-rated prospects and coaching them up.

Does an elite O-line win you a SB? Probably not, you need more. But you can win a SB with a ‘pretty good’ O-line.
So whilst it was one of our biggest weaknesses, that doesn’t mean it has to be the priority in the draft.

[thunderspirit]

To answer your question, I would say Pace should have done something from this list:

Chark @ 1yr 10M
Landry @ 1yr 3M
JuJu @ 1yr 3M
Moses @ 3yr 15M
Bates @ a higher offer than was made, 6M would have been fine IMO
Armstead @ 5yr 75M (I'd have done that)
Tomlinson @ 3yr 40M (but there's an out after just 1 year and this years cap hit is under 6M)
La'el Collins @ 3 yr 21M (similar, there's an out after 1 year and his cap hit this year is 4.6M)

even a few lesser deals would have made me happier about our depth, guys like Bozeman and Trai Turner went for a pack of Skittles, but are far better than Dozier or Simmons.

I'm far less critical about the WR situation than I am the OL situation. The WR FA market was just wacko.

I'm with you on Moses. And
I would probably agree with Chark.

I am unconvinced anything the Bears could've done would have pried Bates loose, but we've agreed to disagree on that before.

I don't think the Bears had any hope of landing Smith-Schuster or Landry, and I'd've passed on the rest. YMMV.

[Bears Whiskey Nut]

And some comments about WR from Brad Biggs Mailbag. Biggsy has an interesting take of Fields development,

ASK THE WRITER BRAD BIGGS
Chicago Bears Q&A: How do the offseason moves help Justin Fields’ future? Who are the top free-agent receivers in 2023?

What is the likelihood the Bears add another veteran WR before camp? — @connor_riecks18

They signed a pair of veteran wide receivers — Tajae Sharpe and Dante Pettis — to one-year contracts May 12. Those names probably don’t move the needle for you because they haven’t had a lot of production the past few seasons. But wide receivers coach Tyke Tolbert spent time with Pettis with the New York Giants, and Janocko was the Minnesota Vikings wide receivers coach in 2020 when Sharpe was with them. If you’re asking about an available veteran such as Odell Beckham Jr., Cole Beasley or Will Fuller, that seems less likely. It looks more and more like the Bears want to see how they can develop existing players on the roster — such as Byron Pringle, Equanimeous St. Brown and third-round pick Velus Jones — behind Darnell Mooney. I doubt they are scouring the market for an upgrade over Pringle. They signed him with the idea he could develop into a No. 2 or No. 3 receiver now that he will have more opportunities being out of Kansas City.

Out of all the wide receiver signings, which do you think will have the biggest impact for Justin Fields’ development? — @whitesquirrl11

Some might view it differently, but I believe a quarterback has a greater influence in helping develop a wide receiver than the other way around. If the quarterback is struggling to read defenses, understand coverages and process after the snap, I don’t care how dynamic the wide receiver is, he won’t have a huge impact week in and week out. The Bears don’t have the quality or depth at wide receiver that they ultimately want to achieve. That’s not news to anyone. They know they need to continue to develop the position, and that can be said about multiple groups on the roster.

Biggs is paid to be a Bears homer. There is nothing honest about the Bears that is ever going to get written by him.

[Bearfacts]

And some comments about WR from Brad Biggs Mailbag. Biggsy has an interesting take of Fields development,

ASK THE WRITER BRAD BIGGS
Chicago Bears Q&A: How do the offseason moves help Justin Fields’ future? Who are the top free-agent receivers in 2023?

What is the likelihood the Bears add another veteran WR before camp? — @connor_riecks18

They signed a pair of veteran wide receivers — Tajae Sharpe and Dante Pettis — to one-year contracts May 12. Those names probably don’t move the needle for you because they haven’t had a lot of production the past few seasons. But wide receivers coach Tyke Tolbert spent time with Pettis with the New York Giants, and Janocko was the Minnesota Vikings wide receivers coach in 2020 when Sharpe was with them. If you’re asking about an available veteran such as Odell Beckham Jr., Cole Beasley or Will Fuller, that seems less likely. It looks more and more like the Bears want to see how they can develop existing players on the roster — such as Byron Pringle, Equanimeous St. Brown and third-round pick Velus Jones — behind Darnell Mooney. I doubt they are scouring the market for an upgrade over Pringle. They signed him with the idea he could develop into a No. 2 or No. 3 receiver now that he will have more opportunities being out of Kansas City.

Out of all the wide receiver signings, which do you think will have the biggest impact for Justin Fields’ development? — @whitesquirrl11

Some might view it differently, but I believe a quarterback has a greater influence in helping develop a wide receiver than the other way around. If the quarterback is struggling to read defenses, understand coverages and process after the snap, I don’t care how dynamic the wide receiver is, he won’t have a huge impact week in and week out. The Bears don’t have the quality or depth at wide receiver that they ultimately want to achieve. That’s not news to anyone. They know they need to continue to develop the position, and that can be said about multiple groups on the roster.

Biggs is paid to be a Bears homer. There is nothing honest about the Bears that is ever going to get written by him.

I don't necessarily disagree with you on Biggs status as a "homer" but in his answers to these two questions I believe he's doing two things that have zero to do with "homerism". So in this case I don't believe your take on him as a writer applies.

His answer to the first question is pretty much simple fact. Signing guys like Pettis and Sharpe to one year deals follows along with virtually every other player Poles has signed. He's searching for younger players whose careers may still have significant upside our coaching staff can develop. In this case both WR are also well known to Bears coaches Andrew Janocko and Tyke Tolbert just as Byron Pringle was to Poles himself. So they're not just random street FA we picked up to compete or add depth. Biggs also restates what I've posted before as well. We're not likely to add any of the more "brand name" WR still unsigned. It is what it is.

The answer to question two includes his personal opinion about Fields development and one I tend to agree with. Regardless of who Fields is throwing to it's his ability to process pre-snap information and read defenses/coverage that's on him not his receivers. At least to some degree it was Mitch's issues with this that led to his never fulfilling his draft status and being released. Jay Cutler for all of his physical talent struggled with this as well even when both had WR like Brandon Marshall, Alshon Jeffrey, and Alan Robinson. No matter how good your receivers are the QB still has to avoid picks and deliver a catchable ball to them on time.

IMHO the WR who will make up the final unit this year will probably be players like these two along with Mooney, Pringle, EQ St. Brown, and rookie Velus Jones who have been in the NFL for a few years and have a good grasp of offensive schemes and the NFL route tree. That alone should be an advantage over rookies who still have much to learn in that respect. I know this is not what many fans wanted and many will also disagree with Biggs and me on this but I truly believe our WR are not nearly as bad as many are making it out to be. Upgrades will come along later when cap and draft picks permit but for now this is who Fields is getting as his targets.

[IE]

I know some folks disagree on this, but I view Pringle right now as a better option than all 3 of these. Their production in the past would be meaningless to the Bears, and if there was certainty around their production in the future they would have gotten better deals. Instead, except for Chark's one year prove-it they have prove-it deals that are actually less than Pringle. i'm pretty sure that's for a reason.

Chark @ 1yr 10M (is formidable in some ways when healthy especially red zone, but not nearly as versatile as Pringle. Pringle is more productive and reliable. Also Chark has some injury concern.)
Landry @ 1yr 3M (has sort of evolved into a possession receiver in spite of a highly productive past where he was the focus of the load. some injury concern)
JuJu @ 1yr 3M (he was always going to the Chiefs. They offered him last year and he almost took it but went back to Pitt. He said that was a mistake and it was clear he wanted to go to KC. Injury got him the prove-it deal)


On the Oline guys yeah there were other potential moves. But maybe beyond trying at Bates (and maybe failing - let's table whether Poles made a rookie move or not for this discussion), maybe they didn't see these other guys as fitting in what they know they want to do in the new system. TBH I don't know the characteristics of these guys in terms of athleticism - but looking at the draft we may have seen why they didn't sign some more expensive vets. It looks like they have very specific things they want to accomplish on the Oline, and dovetailing it with the assumption we're going to see a lot of outside zone I'm wondering if maybe they feel they can build a more effective Oline with the right ingredients vs buy guys that they don't have confidence can get out on those outside zone stretch blocks that they need to work.

That analysis Kylo posted yesterday actually showed Patrick at OG NOT making those blocks very well, and that may indicate he's not looking like anything more than a Center and "player coach" to them. OTOH maybe guys like Kramer and Carter and Thomas are athletic enough to pull that off? I've always been a huge fan of the running game, so maybe I'm biased - but to me if they can pull off establishing a formidable run threat on every play and stretch the field like GB does (not how Nagy tried and failed), that defense has to respect that and a byproduct of that is better pass protection and more time for JF1.

What big time Olinemen are FA next year that fit that highly athletic outside zone scheme?

Moses @ 3yr 15M
Bates @ a higher offer than was made, 6M would have been fine IMO
Armstead @ 5yr 75M (I'd have done that)
Tomlinson @ 3yr 40M (but there's an out after just 1 year and this years cap hit is under 6M)
La'el Collins @ 3 yr 21M (similar, there's an out after 1 year and his cap hit this year is 4.6M)

[Grizzled]

I didn't know Pettis had set an NCAA record for punt returns for TDs. He's only returned 2 punts in 5 years in the NFL, perhaps another role for him.

[dplank]

Ross Tucker was attacked by what he called. “delusional fanbase” lmao and responded:

[RichH55]

To answer your question, I would say Pace should have done something from this list:

Chark @ 1yr 10M
Landry @ 1yr 3M
JuJu @ 1yr 3M
Moses @ 3yr 15M
Bates @ a higher offer than was made, 6M would have been fine IMO
Armstead @ 5yr 75M (I'd have done that)
Tomlinson @ 3yr 40M (but there's an out after just 1 year and this years cap hit is under 6M)
La'el Collins @ 3 yr 21M (similar, there's an out after 1 year and his cap hit this year is 4.6M)

even a few lesser deals would have made me happier about our depth, guys like Bozeman and Trai Turner went for a pack of Skittles, but are far better than Dozier or Simmons.

I'm far less critical about the WR situation than I am the OL situation. The WR FA market was just wacko.

Its a very limited list - and some are kind of meh (If they saw Jenkins as A RT from jump street - then Moses's value takes a hit (Swing tackle sure - no issues there) - And I like D Williams if they wanted more of a Guard

Juju has a ton of incentives and went to play with Reid/Maholmes

You have to be careful on how you phrase 1 year out and then reference their 1st year cap number. Technically there is a 1 year out on every single contract - so its not supremely useful as a term when used like that

And on Laken - He was guaranteed ~14 Million - so if you cut him after 1 year - that's 1 year 14 Million *BEST CASE

*He actually has his entire 2023 base guaranteed for injury only - so if he's only ok and then blows out a knee in Week 14 - and you want to move on - You now have paid him 1 Year 27 million. Still technically a 1 year out though...

[Rusty Trombagent]

Ross Tucker was attacked by what he called. “delusional fanbase” lmao and responded:

to be fair, "may have worst offensive line" and "may have worst WR corps in the nfl" arent exactly "facts."

I'm unclear on why this guy is getting traction when it's been the media narrative for weeks now.

[dplank]

I think his point is that if you are even in the conversation for worst WR group AND worst OL group - that you haven't done a good job putting your QB in a position to succeed. Again, being near bottom at both things simultaneously is what is egregious IMO - not just one or the other but both. The best POV on all this IMO is that if Fields does succeed, we will know that he's the goods and that Getsy is the goods. Because these same players on the whole were pretty dreadful before (individual examples not withstanding, I obviously don't believe Mooney is dreadful at all, he's damn good and underrated leaguewide).

Imagine us performing fairly well as an offense with this pretty awful talent, and then hitting next offseason with all the money in the world and a full slate of draft picks? DAAAAAAAAYYYMMM that would be nice!

[Arkansasbear]

To answer your question, I would say Pace should have done something from this list:

Chark @ 1yr 10M
Landry @ 1yr 3M
JuJu @ 1yr 3M
Moses @ 3yr 15M
Bates @ a higher offer than was made, 6M would have been fine IMO
Armstead @ 5yr 75M (I'd have done that)
Tomlinson @ 3yr 40M (but there's an out after just 1 year and this years cap hit is under 6M)
La'el Collins @ 3 yr 21M (similar, there's an out after 1 year and his cap hit this year is 4.6M)

even a few lesser deals would have made me happier about our depth, guys like Bozeman and Trai Turner went for a pack of Skittles, but are far better than Dozier or Simmons.

I'm far less critical about the WR situation than I am the OL situation. The WR FA market was just wacko.

I'd say Chark would have been a good addition - assuming he would have wanted to come here. He did a one year proof it deal and would he have wanted to do that coming to a team that is in transition????

Landry - meh. I Prigle may bring more at this point

JuJu - don't think he would have come here for that.

Moses - again solely a RT and if they think Jenkins is that guy he doesn't move the needle for the team, but at that price I still like him as a backup/swing tackle.

Bates - they gambled and lost with the numbers they used. He clearly had interest in being here and paying more could have made that happen.

Amrstead - just not big on that contract he has issues EVERY year with staying on the field and it could be a contract that cripples a team.

Tomlison and Collins would have been good additions and bottom of the roster guys like Bozman and Turner are WAY better that what we got.

I also don't understand why Trotter is still out there unless they don't think he or Patrick can play RG and/or just think Patrick is a better center and don't want him moved to RG which they would have to do if Trotter can't play there.

[dplank]

Fair enough! With Chark, he went to the Lions so I feel pretty good we couldve had him for that same price. I get the reservation with Armstead and JuJu, who I agree KC got a discount on him we wouldn't have gotten. I just wanted Poles to do one of these moves - just one of them, pick which, and my view of his offseason would be very different. A few guys are still out there so maybe he'll pull the trigger on a Tretter or Fisher still...

[Arkansasbear]

Fair enough! With Chark, he went to the Lions so I feel pretty good we couldve had him for that same price. I get the reservation with Armstead and JuJu, who I agree KC got a discount on him we wouldn't have gotten. I just wanted Poles to do one of these moves - just one of them, pick which, and my view of his offseason would be very different. A few guys are still out there so maybe he'll pull the trigger on a Tretter or Fisher still...

You are likely right on Chark. I don't know why but I was thinking he went to the K.C. Must have had JuJu in my head when I was thinking about him.

[Yogi da Bear]

I really think that ESB is going to be the surprise player this year. He had a decent rookie year and the got derailed by injuries. The guy is big, tall, and relatively fast. In his fifth year, I think he can turn it around with a new slate. It's beyond just interesting that this was the guy our OC pursued from his old team's roster.

I think I'll be drinking some of this this year:

[IE]

Ross Tucker was attacked by what he called. “delusional fanbase” lmao and responded:

to be fair, "may have worst offensive line" and "may have worst WR corps in the nfl" arent exactly "facts."

I'm unclear on why this guy is getting traction when it's been the media narrative for weeks now.

LOL ... guy posts a trolling post of ridiculous stuff for attention. GETs attention from people who know what BS he posted (Bear fans, correctly correcting him and his provocative non-facts), and then he follows up that people are overly upset but he's enjoying it. Of course he's enjoying it - that's why he posted what he did how he did. I guess that's how you get attention these days - by having the loudest worst take.

Gabriel chimed in early and called him out on his BS.

[dplank]

I’m guessing you don’t follow Ross Tucker, not his schtick at all. Former NFL OL, knows his stuff. Very humble and super nice guy, met him several times.

[thunderspirit]

I’m guessing you don’t follow Ross Tucker, not his schtick at all. Former NFL OL, knows his stuff. Very humble and super nice guy, met him several times.

I agree that Tucker understands the game quite well. That hasn't made him immune to bandwagon posts in the past, though.

He (and you, by extension) may be right, the Bears may be setting JF1 up to fail. I'm confident that's not the plan — I think those people who say they have heard that Poles and Flus don't want Fields as their QB are completely full of shit — and I steadfastly believe that they're correct that the scheme change designed to play to his strengths will go a long way. But I could always be wrong.

[Bearfacts]

Ross Tucker was attacked by what he called. “delusional fanbase” lmao and responded:

Bears fans often attack another opinion shortly after arguing the exact same thing themselves. I can say it but you can't syndrome.

Of note is that Tucker says "may have" so just another opinion and not an absolute one either. On paper maybe some would agree put they don't play on paper. It tears up faster than Soldier Field turf on a wet rainy day.

I don't think it's nearly as bad as a few others do but whenever you put together a roster of a whole lot of players who've not played together before in a brand new scheme to many pairing them with a 2nd year QB I'd expect them to have a bit of a rough start.

The over under stuff has them at anywhere from 6.5-7.5 wins. I think that's a fair projection but it could also be as few as 5 or as many as 9. I guess some might even be happy with 5 wins and a top five 2023 draft pick. I could live with that too.

Maybe the bigger picture question should be did they team and just as importantly Fields progress from game one to game seventeen. Were they better at the finish than at the start? That's what I believe we should be looking at.

[Bearfacts]

I’m guessing you don’t follow Ross Tucker, not his schtick at all. Former NFL OL, knows his stuff. Very humble and super nice guy, met him several times.

I'm a nice guy and I've been wrong about stuff before about a million times. I guess we only have what, about 7 months to go before we'll know whether or not his opinion was correct.

[dplank]

Yea of course, no one knows for sure what’s going to happen. Neither does Poles. That - yet again - was never an argument and never a point that was being made. Was just saying that Tucker is not Orlovsky, he’s a thoughtful person. But that doesn’t make him immune to splash statements either like Thunder said, so take it how you will - no biggie. We all want the same thing! I just don’t think it’s fair to toss away all national media takes as bullshit and at the same time say that no one but Poles has a valid opinion. A lot of the national media folks are super knowledgeable people, and there’s a lot of Orlovsky / Steve A Smith types also that are just human click bait.

So, predictions aside, what I think is an interesting topic to discuss is how much do you think the development of an NFL QB is impacted by:

1) Themselves
2) Their coaches (not scheme, qb coach)
3) The scheme they play in (how effective is it overall + how good a match is the scheme to the players talents)
4) The supporting cast (OL, WR/TE, RB)

This is the heart of the discussion. You have Rich’s take, which is roughly 100% on #1 and 0 elsewhere (feel free to put your actual thought here Rich). I’ve been harping on #4. Top of mind here I’d say roughly this:

1) 50% the player himself is most responsible and has the greatest ability to impact future performance
2) 5% I dont believe mechanical changes are that instrumental. They can help but I put most of that development on the player and not on the quality of the QB coach per se.
3). 25%. Scheme fit is crucial. You put Cam Newton in Peyton Manning’s offense and it’s a disaster. You put him in the offense he ran in Carolina, he won an MVP.
4) 20%. 3rd on the list but still critical to development IMO. A young QB needs something to hang their hat on. It could be great weapons (Cincy model), it could be great OL (NE model forever with Brady), it could be a killer run game that takes the pressure off the QB (Tenn model). Fields had none of this last year, and it appears he will face similar uphill battle this year.

We seem to be counting on the first 3 to deliver, and it might! I think a little more help in #4 would have maximized our chances for success.

[Bearfacts]

I would agree that Tucker is not a click bait type guy and ESPN has now confirmed his opinion by ranking us as the very worst team in the NFL. So.....we got that and a #1 overall 2023 pick goin' for us at the moment. The sports books now have us at 6.5 wins down one from last years opening of 7.5 so we'd need to do significantly worse than 6.5 to be the worst come next January. But that probably keeps in at least top five territory.

To be honest I think the team may be more impacted by inexperience and new coaching with new schemes to learn than they will be by a lack of talent. At least a handful of guys should emerge from all of the competition as guys who "get it" and show upside and I mean the OL as well. That should be of more concern than whose catching passes. The answer to that is whoever gets open more than the next guy. We've had much worse groups before.

So, predictions aside, what I think is an interesting topic to discuss is how much do you think the development of an NFL QB is impacted by:

1) Themselves
2) Their coaches (not scheme, qb coach)
3) The scheme they play in (how effective is it overall + how good a match is the scheme to the players talents)
4) The supporting cast (OL, WR/TE, RB)

I'd say the majority of the responsibility is on themselves but not 100%. Probably 50%-70% depending on the player.

How much impact a coach can have on any player is kinda hard to determine. With a kid with Fields talent it's less. So 10%-15%.

Scheme match is another biggie IMHO. I'd say maybe 25% or so.

Supporting cast is kinda like coaching so maybe 15%. Great QBs make mediocre player better not the reverse.

[dplank]

Great QBs make mediocre players better - agreed. Although not the question here.

The question is about developing a young QB - how much does the talent around him matter to his development process? I think it’s tough to develop a QB behind a shit OL, and if you have one you’d better compensate with elite weapons that can force defenses to back off a bit. Otherwise your young QB gets mauled and never has a chance to develop properly. JMO.