Tom Thayer on Justin Fields and the offense

[The Marshall Plan]

Why so?

Admittedly this is an extreme example, but how would any of the elite QBs today fare with recent turnstiles like J'Marcus Webb, Mustipher and the like?

You can't sit back there and run an offense when you're running for your life.

No one is faster than a quick correct decision

If you watch Packers-Rams tape from last year - you will find multiple examples of Donald instantly winning - and Rodgers still getting the ball out for good gains on those plays.

And Donald is the best to ever do it

Does Aaron Rodgers know you're in the love with him?

Every post.

Well Rodgers does this......

Not every QB is Aaron Rodgers. Not every defender is Aaron Donald either.

Do you not see the benefit of having an extra 3 seconds every passing play and how that makes a QB better?

BTW, I did miss you and am glad you're giving me shit for the first time in like 6 months. Yes I'm serious.

[RichH55]

No one is faster than a quick correct decision

If you watch Packers-Rams tape from last year - you will find multiple examples of Donald instantly winning - and Rodgers still getting the ball out for good gains on those plays.

And Donald is the best to ever do it

Does Aaron Rodgers know you're in the love with him?

Every post.

Well Rodgers does this......

Not every QB is Aaron Rodgers. Not every defender is Aaron Donald either.

Do you not see the benefit of having an extra 3 seconds every passing play and how that makes a QB better?

BTW, I did miss you and am glad you're giving me shit for the first time in like 6 months. Yes I'm serious.

Yeah - but if my QB is Chad Pennington - why do I care? Replace him.

And 3 seconds with Fields just gets him sacked a little later at this point.

How about this? GOOD QBs do that.

It got to the point that the NFL trend was to send LESS rushers against the Good QBs

[RichH55]

No one is faster than a quick correct decision

If you watch Packers-Rams tape from last year - you will find multiple examples of Donald instantly winning - and Rodgers still getting the ball out for good gains on those plays.

And Donald is the best to ever do it

Does Aaron Rodgers know you're in the love with him?

Every post.

Well Rodgers does this......

Not every QB is Aaron Rodgers. Not every defender is Aaron Donald either.

Do you not see the benefit of having an extra 3 seconds every passing play and how that makes a QB better?

BTW, I did miss you and am glad you're giving me shit for the first time in like 6 months. Yes I'm serious.

We also like had a real life trial run here. Joe Burrow was playing behind me and you.

I guess he didn't actually win the SB - so profit?

[IE]

It got to the point that the NFL trend was to send LESS rushers against the Good QBs

Sure - because they make the defense pay if they gamble and send more rushers than people to cover the offensive weapons. The great QBs know the offense and players (and have a good offense, and good players), and they don't need much time to find someone they can get the ball to. They force the D to cover whoever they send out - and if they don't, or if the players are particularly good at getting open or making plays even if they are covered (e.g. Mahomes' weapons including Bryon Pringle) then the D is forced to take the risk that the few they send can disrupt the offense. That risk usually doesn't work out for the D - which is why the good QBs win more often than not.

And then guess who looks good all of the sudden? The Oline .... "man, they give up so few pressures and sacks - send them to the probowl!"

[dplank]

While the Burrow / Cincy thing is an interesting POV re: OL, Rich does purposely leave out the part where they may have the best weapons in the league. It all works together. If Burrow had our OL AND WR corps, he’d look a lot more like rookie Burrow did. Once you reach Tom Brady or Aaron Rodgers status, even that can be overcome - but no player ever has achieved that status in Y2, not even those two guys. We will simply have to gauge Fields progress a little differently with these considerations in mind.

[karhu]

While the Burrow / Cincy thing is an interesting POV re: OL, Rich does purposely leave out the part where they may have the best weapons in the league. It all works together. If Burrow had our OL AND WR corps, he’d look a lot more like rookie Burrow did. Once you reach Tom Brady or Aaron Rodgers status, even that can be overcome - but no player ever has achieved that status in Y2, not even those two guys. We will simply have to gauge Fields progress a little differently with these considerations in mind.

...and he did that, despite his dogshit line, by throwing far more passes of 50+ yards than anyone else in the league, and for more air yards per attempt than anyone besides Matthew Stafford. That's not just because his WRs were running free all the time. They weren't. It's because he knew what to do and when to do it. If Fields is putting that side of things together, we'll see it for the first time this year.

[Kylo Bearen]

Just because my dawg was wearing a Green Lantern shirt I had to give the video a like.

[RichH55]

While the Burrow / Cincy thing is an interesting POV re: OL, Rich does purposely leave out the part where they may have the best weapons in the league. It all works together. If Burrow had our OL AND WR corps, he’d look a lot more like rookie Burrow did. Once you reach Tom Brady or Aaron Rodgers status, even that can be overcome - but no player ever has achieved that status in Y2, not even those two guys. We will simply have to gauge Fields progress a little differently with these considerations in mind.

Lies.

I consistently point out how good Burrow was AS A ROOKIE.

No Chase. Chase not there. Chase not on roster then. No Chase.

Bad OL

You grasp?

Y1

Rookie.

Good.

TD:INT 1:1 or better!

No Chase.

Also pointed out Herbert terrible set up for first game. First game - good. Good.

No Chase.

Burrow - Good.

Sack rate under 14%.

That help?

[RichH55]

While the Burrow / Cincy thing is an interesting POV re: OL, Rich does purposely leave out the part where they may have the best weapons in the league. It all works together. If Burrow had our OL AND WR corps, he’d look a lot more like rookie Burrow did. Once you reach Tom Brady or Aaron Rodgers status, even that can be overcome - but no player ever has achieved that status in Y2, not even those two guys. We will simply have to gauge Fields progress a little differently with these considerations in mind.

...and he did that, despite his dogshit line, by throwing far more passes of 50+ yards than anyone else in the league, and for more air yards per attempt than anyone besides Matthew Stafford. That's not just because his WRs were running free all the time. They weren't. It's because he knew what to do and when to do it. If Fields is putting that side of things together, we'll see it for the first time this year.

Also this

[dplank]

It's not lies, you just keep distorting the main point on to offramps to suit your narrative. I'm not claiming Justin Fields had a good rookie year and I'm certainly not claiming his rookie year was anywhere close to Burrow's. I don't think Fields is as good as Burrow and frankly I doubt he ever will be, Burrow is a GREAT player already. I'm making a very simple and frankly indisputable point, that many threads ago you yourself acknowledged as true. (remember when we jointly agreed on what stats would be appropriate to measure Fields growth?) Fields statistical expectations must be tempered with the mitigating circumstances - THAT is the point - unless you are a GOAT or near GOAT, you don't explode statistically without help. Even if you are a GOAT, circumstances matter. Full stop right there.

Tom Brady, 2006 (pre randy moss) - 3500 yards, 24 TDs, 12 INTs, 90 QBR.
Tom Brady, 2007 (w/ randy moss) - 4800 yards, 50 TDs, 8 INTs, 117 QBR
One year separate, same team same offense same staff same everything - but Moss arrived and BOOM the stats blew up.

That's the point and the ONLY point I'm making - the same point you yourself agreed with already. And so what I'm calling you out on is your constant badgering of Fields and framing him against unrealistic expectations (comping him against GOATS with good supporting casts). Let's see how he measures up against your boy Lawrence this year, that's a far more fair comp.

[RichH55]

Tom Brady - in that terrible, terrible year (apparently) went 12-4. And put up 30+ Points in the Conference Championship that year (they did lose!)

He has what 10+ years of 4000+ yards in NON- Randy Moss years? Many before even the myriad rule changes that helped QBs a goodly amount over the years


He is ummmmmmmm a terrible example

Some of those Non-Randy Moss Years I have to settle for a pathetic 4500+ Yards and barely 32 TD to 8 INT??!?!?

THE HORROR! HOW COULD THE PATRIOTS DO HIM SO WRONG!

Justin Fields is working on 60% completion percentage - and maybe sweeping the Lions?!? Getting his TD:INT even to 1:1 (not even counting really, really high Fumbles numbers to boot)

Your point is that having an All Time WR can really help a QB be GREAT

My point is that our QB wasn't even sniffing competent as a Rookie

AND of course you acting as if Burrow ONLY was good because he got Chase - when I have posted - ALOT - that he was you know - Light Years better as a Rookie WITHOUT CHASE !!!!!@!!!!!!!!!!! AND a Worse OL!

NO CHASE THERE - " Rich does purposely leave out the part where they may have the best weapons in the league"

ROOKIE YEAR BURROW is basically what we are hoping to get out of Fields in Year 3-5? I dont think most think we are even getting it in Year 2

So yes - this "" Rich does purposely leave out the part where they may have the best weapons in the league"

Is a lie

[dplank]

You’re just doing it again, comparing one rookie year against decades of performance by the literal best of all time. Wasn’t it Brady’s 7th season before he cracked a 100 QBR? With Moss of course! Then after a decade in the league he started pouring it on statistically speaking. It’s crazy that Fields hasn’t achieved Brady numbers after 13 months in the NFL! How was Brady’s rookie year again? How about his second?

But no point continuing, just go back a re read your own thread about how to properly evaluate Fields progress this year - assuming you aren’t going to argue with yourself about it (may not be a safe assumption)

[RichH55]

You’re just doing it again, comparing one rookie year against decades of performance by the literal best of all time. Wasn’t it Brady’s 7th season before he cracked a 100 QBR? With Moss of course! Then after a decade in the league he started pouring it on statistically speaking. It’s crazy that Fields hasn’t achieved Brady numbers after 13 months in the NFL! How was Brady’s rookie year again? How about his second?

But no point continuing, just go back a re read your own thread about how to properly evaluate Fields progress this year - assuming you aren’t going to argue with yourself about it (may not be a safe assumption)

If ONLY there were some post of mine (I mean it would be crazy if it was a point I harp on) comparing him to other Rookies like lets make us some names Joseph Burrough or Justice Hebert

No Chasers.

Also - on the Brady stuff- you do get the NFL changed the rules over time making it much easier to play QB right?

And still quoting QBR huh? I get the feeling you are going to have no idea how to evaluate Fields for good or ill if that is your standard. Hint: It's still incredibly foolish to use for any purposes

Almost like I dont think Jared Goff is a Top 20 QB of All Time. Or that Marcus Mariotta is as good as Andrew Luck

Oh. Tyrod Taylor, Chad Pennington, AND Matt Schaub ALL better than ALL of: Dan Marino, Otto Graham, Brett Favre, AND Troy Aikman

And one more for fun - Blake Bortles better than John Elway.

I disagree with you there:)

[RichH55]

You’re just doing it again, comparing one rookie year against decades of performance by the literal best of all time. Wasn’t it Brady’s 7th season before he cracked a 100 QBR? With Moss of course! Then after a decade in the league he started pouring it on statistically speaking. It’s crazy that Fields hasn’t achieved Brady numbers after 13 months in the NFL! How was Brady’s rookie year again? How about his second?

But no point continuing, just go back a re read your own thread about how to properly evaluate Fields progress this year - assuming you aren’t going to argue with yourself about it (may not be a safe assumption)

"How about his second? "

Bradys second year - With no Chase - he won the Super Bowl

I will say - and I know your beloved QBR disagrees - I would classify that as "Good"?

I don't think its fair to hold Fields to Brady's 2nd year:). But you do you

[Bears Whiskey Nut]

Running only 4 to 5 plays - is ummmmm not a good recipe for success in 2022 NFL Football

Ummm...That really wasn't Thayer's point. His point was, have a thinner playbook that you execute perfectly rather than the 800 play, gadget laden book that Nagy had. Don't be mediocre at everything, be outstanding at a few. To Bernstein's point, Nagy would constantly run well executed plays that gained 7-10 yards, and we wouldn't see it again until the 4th quarter, because he was trying to trick his opponents with a myriad of plays that the offense couldn't run very well.

[artbest01]

Re: Burrow versus Fields - Joe was SIGNIFICANTLY better, regardless of supporting cast, as a rookie. That said, his oline was arguably about the same as the 2021 Bear line - not necessarily worse. If we remove fields from the equation and look at Andy Dalton, imo, we see why. Dalton, I believe, had one of the top 5 fastest releases in the league a year go. Despite that, he was sacked roughly 3 times per game - the same as Joe Burrow, who is notorious for holding the ball (too) long (like a lot of rookies). Burrow also had a more talented, more complete cadre of pass catchers, without Chase in tow, than Fields did in 2021. Other factors working against Fields were a lack of 1st team reps in training camp and an offense that failed miserably to cater to his strengths (he graded out VERY high according to PFF on designed roll-outs and play action passes - yet the Bears didn't emphasize either very much when Fields played).

In 2022, Fields will have a mediocre or worse oline, arguably a bottom 3 WR corps, and a modest group of TEs to throw to. Despite this, the offense figures to cater much more to what he's shown he can do pretty well. He'll be on the move more and they'll use more play action more. They'll run the ball more. He'll get his brains beaten in in weeks 1 and 2, but, we should know by midseason imo if he's got a legit shot to be "the guy" OR if Poles will be taking a long, hard look at Bryce Young.

[dplank]

Re: Burrow versus Fields - Joe was SIGNIFICANTLY better, regardless of supporting cast, as a rookie. That said, his oline was arguably about the same as the 2021 Bear line - not necessarily worse. If we remove fields from the equation and look at Andy Dalton, imo, we see why. Dalton, I believe, had one of the top 5 fastest releases in the league a year go. Despite that, he was sacked roughly 3 times per game - the same as Joe Burrow, who is notorious for holding the ball (too) long (like a lot of rookies). Burrow also had a more talented, more complete cadre of pass catchers, without Chase in tow, than Fields did in 2021. Other factors working against Fields were a lack of 1st team reps in training camp and an offense that failed miserably to cater to his strengths (he graded out VERY high according to PFF on designed roll-outs and play action passes - yet the Bears didn't emphasize either very much when Fields played).

In 2022, Fields will have a mediocre or worse oline, arguably a bottom 3 WR corps, and a modest group of TEs to throw to. Despite this, the offense figures to cater much more to what he's shown he can do pretty well. He'll be on the move more and they'll use more play action more. They'll run the ball more. He'll get his brains beaten in in weeks 1 and 2, but, we should know by midseason imo if he's got a legit shot to be "the guy" OR if Poles will be taking a long, hard look at Bryce Young.

Agree Art. No one has ever claimed Fields had a better rookie year than Burrow. Rich is just hell bent on painting Fields in a negative light, however possible - that's been my gripe. Let's just see how he progresses in Y2, with all the obvious caveats in mind. Expecting him to carry an entire team on his back in Y2 is a stupid marker to put on him, even if Rodgers or Brady have been able to do that in the latter stages of their careers.

I want to see Fields get the ball out faster, increase his comp%, decrease his turnovers (fumbles in particular need a dramatic improvement). I'm not stuck on yardage, td's, or wins as the mitigating factors around him will water all of that down.

[RichH55]

Re: Burrow versus Fields - Joe was SIGNIFICANTLY better, regardless of supporting cast, as a rookie. That said, his oline was arguably about the same as the 2021 Bear line - not necessarily worse. If we remove fields from the equation and look at Andy Dalton, imo, we see why. Dalton, I believe, had one of the top 5 fastest releases in the league a year go. Despite that, he was sacked roughly 3 times per game - the same as Joe Burrow, who is notorious for holding the ball (too) long (like a lot of rookies). Burrow also had a more talented, more complete cadre of pass catchers, without Chase in tow, than Fields did in 2021. Other factors working against Fields were a lack of 1st team reps in training camp and an offense that failed miserably to cater to his strengths (he graded out VERY high according to PFF on designed roll-outs and play action passes - yet the Bears didn't emphasize either very much when Fields played).

In 2022, Fields will have a mediocre or worse oline, arguably a bottom 3 WR corps, and a modest group of TEs to throw to. Despite this, the offense figures to cater much more to what he's shown he can do pretty well. He'll be on the move more and they'll use more play action more. They'll run the ball more. He'll get his brains beaten in in weeks 1 and 2, but, we should know by midseason imo if he's got a legit shot to be "the guy" OR if Poles will be taking a long, hard look at Bryce Young.

Agree Art. No one has ever claimed Fields had a better rookie year than Burrow. Rich is just hell bent on painting Fields in a negative light, however possible - that's been my gripe. Let's just see how he progresses in Y2, with all the obvious caveats in mind. Expecting him to carry an entire team on his back in Y2 is a stupid marker to put on him, even if Rodgers or Brady have been able to do that in the latter stages of their careers.

I want to see Fields get the ball out faster, increase his comp%, decrease his turnovers (fumbles in particular need a dramatic improvement). I'm not stuck on yardage, td's, or wins as the mitigating factors around him will water all of that down.

Hell bent? Negative light?

Under 60% completion. Absolutely insanely bad sack and fumble numbers. Not even 1:1 TD to INT (and 1:1 is a terrible number to begin with!)

The only way there could be more negative light is if he was a Chilean Miner

The negative light is literally called reality.......but then its "Only a HOF could play under these conditions!!!" Except that apparently any QB who is any good ever apparently is HOFer.

It's foolish.

[RichH55]

Running only 4 to 5 plays - is ummmmm not a good recipe for success in 2022 NFL Football

Ummm...That really wasn't Thayer's point. His point was, have a thinner playbook that you execute perfectly rather than the 800 play, gadget laden book that Nagy had. Don't be mediocre at everything, be outstanding at a few. To Bernstein's point, Nagy would constantly run well executed plays that gained 7-10 yards, and we wouldn't see it again until the 4th quarter, because he was trying to trick his opponents with a myriad of plays that the offense couldn't run very well.

They were his literal words.

Look I love Remember the Titans - I don't think that Coach is qualified to talk about NFL Offense though

[RichH55]

Re: Burrow versus Fields - Joe was SIGNIFICANTLY better, regardless of supporting cast, as a rookie. That said, his oline was arguably about the same as the 2021 Bear line - not necessarily worse. If we remove fields from the equation and look at Andy Dalton, imo, we see why. Dalton, I believe, had one of the top 5 fastest releases in the league a year go. Despite that, he was sacked roughly 3 times per game - the same as Joe Burrow, who is notorious for holding the ball (too) long (like a lot of rookies). Burrow also had a more talented, more complete cadre of pass catchers, without Chase in tow, than Fields did in 2021. Other factors working against Fields were a lack of 1st team reps in training camp and an offense that failed miserably to cater to his strengths (he graded out VERY high according to PFF on designed roll-outs and play action passes - yet the Bears didn't emphasize either very much when Fields played).

In 2022, Fields will have a mediocre or worse oline, arguably a bottom 3 WR corps, and a modest group of TEs to throw to. Despite this, the offense figures to cater much more to what he's shown he can do pretty well. He'll be on the move more and they'll use more play action more. They'll run the ball more. He'll get his brains beaten in in weeks 1 and 2, but, we should know by midseason imo if he's got a legit shot to be "the guy" OR if Poles will be taking a long, hard look at Bryce Young.

Arob is going to have a very good year in LA. Then people can say whatever they want.

Arob was just a bad fit with Fields - Fields is NOT an anticipatory thrower - At all.

I think thats a huge issue - apparently most do not. But Arob and him were just a particularly bad fit

Conversely - VJJ and Fields should be a really good fit. No one has to worry about routes and the like - He can just throw to him once he's wide the F open - ala tOSU

[Yogi da Bear]

Running only 4 to 5 plays - is ummmmm not a good recipe for success in 2022 NFL Football

Maybe, but you know what hasn't changed? You win by imposing your will on your opponents.
Nagy was all about trying to outsmart everyone, it didn't work partly because he mostly outsmarted himself, but partly because his teams were soft.
Eberflus appears to be more old school, less dancing, more punching.
Looking forward to it.

Heavy sigh. Putting Rich on ignore has been so peaceful. I wish posters would quite quoting him so that I could continue that peace. But I see from this that Rich hasn't changed. He's still a troll who intentionally hyperbolizes an argument to absurdity claiming that's their stance, when any reasonable person would realize that's not what he meant.

Here, Thayer is talking about having four or five "go-to" plays that you perfect and define your offense. In the past, the Packers had the sweep, the Redskins had the Counter Trey, even today's Niners have the Wide Zone. In fact, they use that Wide Zone because it disguises whether or not you're going to run out of it or pass out of it. Thayer is talking about having four or five bread and butter plays that an offense can go to, you know, like his Bear team had in handing off to Walter. Thayer even uses David Montgomery as an example of having needless complexity in an offense. Nagy would have success with David, and then fucking take him out, not even using him as a threat on the next play. That's what he's talking about, and any reasonable person could see that rather than going all hyperbolic on his ass, because that would be just obtuse as shit. Even the Packers have a handful of running and passing plays that they like to use. See Kylo's excellent links on the subject. viewtopic.php?t=16362&hilit=packers+getsy

But here, let me leave everybody with Vince Lombardi:



Argue with him Rich.

[artbest01]

ARob likely will have a good year in LA, since Cooper Kupp will get most of a defense's attention. Implying that the only reason why Arob had a subpar year in 2021 was because of Fields ignores the fact that, when Dalton started, Arob (when he was playing) wasn't nearly as productive as he had been in 2019 and 2020 - his numbers were, relatively speaking, putrid with Dalton in the game. Also - Trubisky wasn't necessarily an "anticipatory" passer while he was in Chicago - he simply looked to Arob first (almost) to a fault. Fields, and Dalton, ultimately were more comfortable throwing the ball to Mooney.

Re: Burrow versus Fields - Joe was SIGNIFICANTLY better, regardless of supporting cast, as a rookie. That said, his oline was arguably about the same as the 2021 Bear line - not necessarily worse. If we remove fields from the equation and look at Andy Dalton, imo, we see why. Dalton, I believe, had one of the top 5 fastest releases in the league a year go. Despite that, he was sacked roughly 3 times per game - the same as Joe Burrow, who is notorious for holding the ball (too) long (like a lot of rookies). Burrow also had a more talented, more complete cadre of pass catchers, without Chase in tow, than Fields did in 2021. Other factors working against Fields were a lack of 1st team reps in training camp and an offense that failed miserably to cater to his strengths (he graded out VERY high according to PFF on designed roll-outs and play action passes - yet the Bears didn't emphasize either very much when Fields played).

In 2022, Fields will have a mediocre or worse oline, arguably a bottom 3 WR corps, and a modest group of TEs to throw to. Despite this, the offense figures to cater much more to what he's shown he can do pretty well. He'll be on the move more and they'll use more play action more. They'll run the ball more. He'll get his brains beaten in in weeks 1 and 2, but, we should know by midseason imo if he's got a legit shot to be "the guy" OR if Poles will be taking a long, hard look at Bryce Young.

Arob is going to have a very good year in LA. Then people can say whatever they want.

Arob was just a bad fit with Fields - Fields is NOT an anticipatory thrower - At all.

I think thats a huge issue - apparently most do not. But Arob and him were just a particularly bad fit

Conversely - VJJ and Fields should be a really good fit. No one has to worry about routes and the like - He can just throw to him once he's wide the F open - ala tOSU

[RichH55]

Maybe, but you know what hasn't changed? You win by imposing your will on your opponents.
Nagy was all about trying to outsmart everyone, it didn't work partly because he mostly outsmarted himself, but partly because his teams were soft.
Eberflus appears to be more old school, less dancing, more punching.
Looking forward to it.

Heavy sigh. Putting Rich on ignore has been so peaceful. I wish posters would quite quoting him so that I could continue that peace. But I see from this that Rich hasn't changed. He's still a troll who intentionally hyperbolizes an argument to absurdity claiming that's their stance, when any reasonable person would realize that's not what he meant.

Here, Thayer is talking about having four or five "go-to" plays that you perfect and define your offense. In the past, the Packers had the sweep, the Redskins had the Counter Trey, even today's Niners have the Wide Zone. In fact, they use that Wide Zone because it disguises whether or not you're going to run out of it or pass out of it. Thayer is talking about having four or five bread and butter plays that an offense can go to, you know, like his Bear team had in handing off to Walter. Thayer even uses David Montgomery as an example of having needless complexity in an offense. Nagy would have success with David, and then fucking take him out, not even using him as a threat on the next play. That's what he's talking about, and any reasonable person could see that rather than going all hyperbolic on his ass, because that would be just obtuse as shit. Even the Packers have a handful of running and passing plays that they like to use. See Kylo's excellent links on the subject. viewtopic.php?t=16362&hilit=packers+getsy

But here, let me leave everybody with Vince Lombardi:



Argue with him Rich.

In a related story he's been dead for 50+ Years

The game has changed. Sorry if you didn't get the memo

Perhaps the next guy you want to quote is the Coach (who won alot BTW in his day) that didn't like the Forward Pass because "Three things can happen, and two of them are bad"


Running only 4 to 5 plays is the epitome of stupid meat headedness that will get a Coach fired in today's NFL

I really didn't think there would be people foolish enough to take the other side of that argument

So never change Yogi!

[RichH55]

ARob likely will have a good year in LA, since Cooper Kupp will get most of a defense's attention. Implying that the only reason why Arob had a subpar year in 2021 was because of Fields ignores the fact that, when Dalton started, Arob (when he was playing) wasn't nearly as productive as he had been in 2019 and 2020 - his numbers were, relatively speaking, putrid with Dalton in the game. Also - Trubisky wasn't necessarily an "anticipatory" passer while he was in Chicago - he simply looked to Arob first (almost) to a fault. Fields, and Dalton, ultimately were more comfortable throwing the ball to Mooney.

Arob is going to have a very good year in LA. Then people can say whatever they want.

Arob was just a bad fit with Fields - Fields is NOT an anticipatory thrower - At all.

I think thats a huge issue - apparently most do not. But Arob and him were just a particularly bad fit

Conversely - VJJ and Fields should be a really good fit. No one has to worry about routes and the like - He can just throw to him once he's wide the F open - ala tOSU

No problem putting some of it on Chemistry (I saved a photo when Arod was running 15 yards open and Fields didn't throw it to him) - or that Arob even dating back to Bortles was kind of a volume WR ( I noted this when it was the other side of the coin and people were saying Arob was a perennial 1500 Yard WR and maybe a Top 5 WR in all the NFL - Nonsense then )

But him being worse than Tee Higgins?

No.

That is wrong.

[RichH55]

The 1967 Packers would go 0-17 and lose every game by 30+ points

Times change

[artbest01]

Overall? Sure. Arob in 2021 versus Tee Higgins in 2020? Higgins was better. A lot better. if Arob had been producing per usual with Andy Dalton at QB versus Fields, you'd have a point. Unfortunately, Arob wasn't productive with Dalton at QB. In the opener, Arob had 6 catches for 35 yards. In week 2 - split between Dalton and Fields - Robinson had 2 catches for 24 yards. Robinson got hurt in the Pittsburgh game - he returned to face an inept Giants team and produced 4 catches for 35 yards and finished the season catching 2 passes for 22 yards.

Robinson - for whatever reason (health, lack of focus, not wanting to be in Chicago) simply wasn't good in 2021 regardless of who was throwing the football. Dalton is a journeyman, but he's a veteran who gets rid of the ball quickly and can throw on time. Robinson wasn't of much use to him when they were on the field together.

Regardless - the 2020 Bengals triumvirate of Boyd, Higgins and an aging A.J. Green was better than what the 2021 Bears put on the field at WR. I

As for 2022, Robinson likely will be rejuvenated by playing for a far superior player caller, playing across from, by far, the best WR he's played with - a legit All Pro - and catching passes from the best QB he's had in his career. In 2021? he simply wasn't effective.

ARob likely will have a good year in LA, since Cooper Kupp will get most of a defense's attention. Implying that the only reason why Arob had a subpar year in 2021 was because of Fields ignores the fact that, when Dalton started, Arob (when he was playing) wasn't nearly as productive as he had been in 2019 and 2020 - his numbers were, relatively speaking, putrid with Dalton in the game. Also - Trubisky wasn't necessarily an "anticipatory" passer while he was in Chicago - he simply looked to Arob first (almost) to a fault. Fields, and Dalton, ultimately were more comfortable throwing the ball to Mooney.

No problem putting some of it on Chemistry (I saved a photo when Arod was running 15 yards open and Fields didn't throw it to him) - or that Arob even dating back to Bortles was kind of a volume WR ( I noted this when it was the other side of the coin and people were saying Arob was a perennial 1500 Yard WR and maybe a Top 5 WR in all the NFL - Nonsense then )

But him being worse than Tee Higgins?

No.

That is wrong.

[Yogi da Bear]

Running only 4 to 5 plays - is ummmmm not a good recipe for success in 2022 NFL Football

Ummm...That really wasn't Thayer's point. His point was, have a thinner playbook that you execute perfectly rather than the 800 play, gadget laden book that Nagy had. Don't be mediocre at everything, be outstanding at a few. To Bernstein's point, Nagy would constantly run well executed plays that gained 7-10 yards, and we wouldn't see it again until the 4th quarter, because he was trying to trick his opponents with a myriad of plays that the offense couldn't run very well.

Sorry, I must have missed this post when I was first going through the thread. Pretty much what I was trying to say only you said it better. Even looking at the Kyro's link for the Packers offense: 95% of their run plays were either Inside Zone, Outside Zone, or Duo! That's three plays! And in the passing game, they also had a handful of plays they went to with regularity, including: Omaha, Slot fade smash split, Mesh, Middle read dagger, Pin, Four Verticals, Play Action Flight and Keeper (to counter the outside zone run). So rather than looking at 4-5 plays in high school, you're looking at 10-11 in the NFL. But the concept remains the same--run a few plays really, really well, your go-to plays, and then sprinkle in some trickery. This will also help simplify the offense for Justin and not requiring him to decipher a Volumatic rocket scientist of gadgets of a playbook.

[RichH55]

So like a crap ton more plays and looks than 4-5 overall because 4-5 overall is very very very stupid


Maybe you have a Pop Warner clip explaining why the forward pass is going to ruin the game?

[dplank]

So like a crap ton more plays and looks than 4-5 overall because 4-5 overall is very very very stupid


Maybe you have a Pop Warner clip explaining why the forward pass is going to ruin the game?

Tom Thayer was not saying that an NFL offense should only run 4-5 plays. Literally no one thinks that. He was using an illustrative example to make a point.

[dave99]

So like a crap ton more plays and looks than 4-5 overall because 4-5 overall is very very very stupid


Maybe you have a Pop Warner clip explaining why the forward pass is going to ruin the game?

You're probably right. What we really need is two or three dozen plays with lots of moving parts to make absolutely certain that at least one or two guys will blow their assignment.
Make sure everyone is overthinking instead of executing.
Otherwise we might look stupid.