dplank wrote: ↑Sat Nov 05, 2022 7:01 pm
That’s a major over statement whiskey, there’s no need to disparage him. His TFL is good and he’s a good/instinctive pass rusher and very good in coverage. He’s a really good player, top 5 at his position according to league GMs. He was just insisting on being paid like the best instead of “one of the best”. So fine, we moved him and I’m ok with it. But why the need to act like he wasn’t any good at all and just making stuff up like this?
FWIW, I have no intent to claim that Ro was/is no good at all.
I do think he hasn't play this season like a star for which he wanted a commensurate contract. But that's not the same thing as saying the guy's a bum.
Getting Roquan as a partially pre paid 8 game rental still leaves the Mega Millions contract he has demanded..
We'll see when the season's over who wants to pay him what his demands were/are..and who can and has the available cap space AFTER their own massive contract demands from some very talented vets..
I get it. You've brought that one statistic up over and over and over. It's a good metric. I think it's great that he was. But, how many were for a loss? How many prevented a 3nd down conversion? How many caused a fumble? How many QB pressures, sacks? This was Cosell's point. You can rack up the most tackles in the league, but if they are all 5-7 yards down the field, total tackles is kind of irrelevant. You do understand that, right? Why would you pay a LB $20M a year if all he can do is stop a RB from gaining 7 yards by holding him to 5?
The statement thunderspirit made was completely and totally inaccurate.
I'm not getting into the 50th argument about Roquan's stats in this thread. Nevertheless, he was producing at an elite level and had been for a period of time. There's no sensible argument to deny that.
The $20M number is kind of a strawman too which I've explained between the various tags that were available and then also where that $20M would actually be in terms of LB salaries in the future.
1. Roquan is a very good player, teammate, and leader
2. He simply wasn’t realistic with his salary demands…Poles knew he would be gone after this year and opted to get something for him vs letting him walk for nothing.
3. When factoring in the loss and the Claypool add, we need to consider the money saved. We will basically be able to extend Mooney and Claypool for a little more then what Roquan wanted.
Sucks to lose Roquan, but we’ve paid defensive players for years and don’t have much to show for it. This move in my opinion, symbolizes a true commitment to change. Also, the Claypool add to me symbols an end of the purge and gives us a jump start on the rebuild. I’ve felt like trading for a WR was going to be the move similar to what the Bills, Eagles, and Dolphins have done.
We can win with Fields, Mooney, Claypool, and Kmet by adding in some speed and a couple top olinemen.
Good post blaz. I look at it like we made a trade with the Steeles. We sent Roquan and our 2nd to the Steelers for Claypool and their 2nd plus a 5th. With the added benefit of Claypool having one extra year of rookie control than Roquan has.
I know it’s not precise cause Ravens picks are less value than Steelers picks, but when I view it this way I really like it.
HisRoyalSweetness wrote: ↑Fri Nov 04, 2022 5:05 pm
Alex Brown with a succinct summary of the situation:
“When you look at Roquan, coming in as a rookie, he held out. This year, held out. If you don’t think you're close on a contract, you franchise him, you can bet your butt that he’s going to hold out and not come play until he absolutely has to. Do you want to go through that, or is it better for the team to get a second- and a fifth and move on from that big contract?”
This comes from a guy that knows about this personally. He once stated he had played his last game for the Bears. Then signed a new contract with same said team. So he knows what he is talking about.
dplank wrote: ↑Sat Nov 05, 2022 7:01 pm
That’s a major over statement whiskey, there’s no need to disparage him. His TFL is good and he’s a good/instinctive pass rusher and very good in coverage. He’s a really good player, top 5 at his position according to league GMs. He was just insisting on being paid like the best instead of “one of the best”. So fine, we moved him and I’m ok with it. But why the need to act like he wasn’t any good at all and just making stuff up like this?
FWIW, I have no intent to claim that Ro was/is no good at all.
I do think he hasn't play this season like a star for which he wanted a commensurate contract. But that's not the same thing as saying the guy's a bum.
This is my take as well - and it kind of goes for all his seasons.
HisRoyalSweetness wrote: ↑Fri Nov 04, 2022 5:05 pm
Alex Brown with a succinct summary of the situation:
This comes from a guy that knows about this personally. He once stated he had played his last game for the Bears. Then signed a new contract with same said team. So he knows what he is talking about.
I get it. You've brought that one statistic up over and over and over. It's a good metric. I think it's great that he was. But, how many were for a loss? How many prevented a 3nd down conversion? How many caused a fumble? How many QB pressures, sacks? This was Cosell's point. You can rack up the most tackles in the league, but if they are all 5-7 yards down the field, total tackles is kind of irrelevant. You do understand that, right? Why would you pay a LB $20M a year if all he can do is stop a RB from gaining 7 yards by holding him to 5?
The statement thunderspirit made was completely and totally inaccurate.
I'm not getting into the 50th argument about Roquan's stats in this thread. Nevertheless, he was producing at an elite level and had been for a period of time. There's no sensible argument to deny that.
The $20M number is kind of a strawman too which I've explained between the various tags that were available and then also where that $20M would actually be in terms of LB salaries in the future.
This is a bad post across the board. Tackles - when not for loss- are not what makes a LB elite. For starters
The lack of understanding on contracts is a problem as well.
I feel like Roquon won't even be breaking the 20 million barrier - after this year- But the number just isn't a strawman - lIke AT ALL.
dplank wrote: ↑Sat Nov 05, 2022 7:01 pm
That’s a major over statement whiskey, there’s no need to disparage him. His TFL is good and he’s a good/instinctive pass rusher and very good in coverage. He’s a really good player, top 5 at his position according to league GMs. He was just insisting on being paid like the best instead of “one of the best”. So fine, we moved him and I’m ok with it. But why the need to act like he wasn’t any good at all and just making stuff up like this?
People are still calling him Elite though.
People were comping him to Ray Lewis.
It's not the people "disparaging" him (which almost to a Person make note that he IS a good player) - that were way off about his value
dplank wrote: ↑Sat Nov 05, 2022 7:01 pm
That’s a major over statement whiskey, there’s no need to disparage him. His TFL is good and he’s a good/instinctive pass rusher and very good in coverage. He’s a really good player, top 5 at his position according to league GMs. He was just insisting on being paid like the best instead of “one of the best”. So fine, we moved him and I’m ok with it. But why the need to act like he wasn’t any good at all and just making stuff up like this?
People are still calling him Elite though.
People were comping him to Ray Lewis.
It's not the people "disparaging" him (which almost to a Person make note that he IS a good player) - that were way off about his value
I don't know when you'll learn that comparing a style of play is not the same as comparing the abilities of the players. It's basic common sense and kind of sad that you can't seem to understand how that works. For example, I can say that Mac Jones style of play is more like Brady, while Justin Fields style of play is more like Cam Newton. In neither case am I claiming anything at all about how good those players are, simply pointing out a stylistic similarity. The comp works to the point being made, no one would ever say Mac Jones is as good as Tom Brady, Mac Jones absolutely blows.
Roquan plays like Lewis in that he is a speed, chase in space LB that requires big men up front to keep him clean. Never, not once ever, has anyone ever claimed he was as good as Ray Lewis. And so.......it's just another strawman.
It's not the people "disparaging" him (which almost to a Person make note that he IS a good player) - that were way off about his value
I don't know when you'll learn that comparing a style of play is not the same as comparing the abilities of the players. It's basic common sense and kind of sad that you can't seem to understand how that works. For example, I can say that Mac Jones style of play is more like Brady, while Justin Fields style of play is more like Cam Newton. In neither case am I claiming anything at all about how good those players are, simply pointing out a stylistic similarity. The comp works to the point being made, no one would ever say Mac Jones is as good as Tom Brady, Mac Jones absolutely blows.
Roquan plays like Lewis in that he is a speed, chase in space LB that requires big men up front to keep him clean. Never, not once ever, has anyone ever claimed he was as good as Ray Lewis. And so.......it's just another strawman.
It's not the people "disparaging" him (which almost to a Person make note that he IS a good player) - that were way off about his value
I don't know when you'll learn that comparing a style of play is not the same as comparing the abilities of the players. It's basic common sense and kind of sad that you can't seem to understand how that works. For example, I can say that Mac Jones style of play is more like Brady, while Justin Fields style of play is more like Cam Newton. In neither case am I claiming anything at all about how good those players are, simply pointing out a stylistic similarity. The comp works to the point being made, no one would ever say Mac Jones is as good as Tom Brady, Mac Jones absolutely blows.
Roquan plays like Lewis in that he is a speed, chase in space LB that requires big men up front to keep him clean. Never, not once ever, has anyone ever claimed he was as good as Ray Lewis. And so.......it's just another strawman.
Im sure you never posted both their stats too - to show they were comparable (NOT THE SAME THING AS MAYBE IT WAS A SURFACE SIMILARITY) But of course you did - on multiple occasions
Then called the GM deceitful when he talked about Roquon and the contract - but then said both were "professional"
Roquon shouldn't be mentioned in the same breathe as Ray Lewis unless the sentence is "Both played for the Ravens"
You can just admit it was a bad take by you - That's allowed. (I think?)
Or my guess is that when people compare Roquon to Ray Lewis - Or call Allen Robinson a Top 5 WR - or Compare Ty Hill to Mooney -
The new way around that if people remember is to call it a "Strawman"
The Ray Lewis stuff was terrible. We should be better than that
I don't know when you'll learn that comparing a style of play is not the same as comparing the abilities of the players. It's basic common sense and kind of sad that you can't seem to understand how that works. For example, I can say that Mac Jones style of play is more like Brady, while Justin Fields style of play is more like Cam Newton. In neither case am I claiming anything at all about how good those players are, simply pointing out a stylistic similarity. The comp works to the point being made, no one would ever say Mac Jones is as good as Tom Brady, Mac Jones absolutely blows.
Roquan plays like Lewis in that he is a speed, chase in space LB that requires big men up front to keep him clean. Never, not once ever, has anyone ever claimed he was as good as Ray Lewis. And so.......it's just another strawman.
Im sure you never posted both their stats too - to show they were comparable (NOT THE SAME THING AS MAYBE IT WAS A SURFACE SIMILARITY) But of course you did - on multiple occasions
Then called the GM deceitful when he talked about Roquon and the contract - but then said both were "professional"
Roquon shouldn't be mentioned in the same breathe as Ray Lewis unless the sentence is "Both played for the Ravens"
You can just admit it was a bad take by you - That's allowed. (I think?)
Or my guess is that when people compare Roquon to Ray Lewis - Or call Allen Robinson a Top 5 WR - or Compare Ty Hill to Mooney -
The new way around that if people remember is to call it a "Strawman"
The Ray Lewis stuff was terrible. We should be better than that
This is beginning to wear on me. You are picking a lot of unnecessary hills to die on.
Shadow wrote: ↑Sun Nov 06, 2022 9:29 am
This comes from a guy that knows about this personally. He once stated he had played his last game for the Bears. Then signed a new contract with same said team. So he knows what he is talking about.
Wasn't that Briggs?
Or Brown as well?
As usual, Briggs just copied his teammate. Brown was miffed because the Rookie Anderson had just had a monster year and the talk was Mark would replace Brown the next season. Alex was not felling the love and thought he was being cast aside. Bears did re-sign him to a nice contract in the end.
Briggs pulled out the same statement, when Urlacher left and he was asked to be the leader for once and he balked and demanded more money. This was a couple 3 years later than Alex.
Honestly both dplank and rich have fair points. Rich gets a touch to literal, and dplank gets a touch complimentary. That might not be the perfect word.
The debate has been had. Its essentially over, but no conclusion has been had. Perhaps you draw up parameters and bet?
mmmc_35 wrote: ↑Mon Nov 07, 2022 11:38 am
Honestly both dplank and rich have fair points. Rich gets a touch to literal, and dplank gets a touch complimentary. That might not be the perfect word.
The debate has been had. Its essentially over, but no conclusion has been had. Perhaps you draw up parameters and bet?
Its gonna be very very interesting how he does this offseason
As usual, Briggs just copied his teammate. Brown was miffed because the Rookie Anderson had just had a monster year and the talk was Mark would replace Brown the next season. Alex was not felling the love and thought he was being cast aside. Bears did re-sign him to a nice contract in the end.
Briggs pulled out the same statement, when Urlacher left and he was asked to be the leader for once and he balked and demanded more money. This was a couple 3 years later than Alex.
And it was proven pretty quickly that a lot of Briggs success was because he had Urlacher next to him. Much like Pippen to Jordan. They were really good as a compliment, but not nearly the same flying solo.
Roquan had a pretty decent game in his Ravens debut ... he will always be a good player until the ravages of age catch up to him some years down the road as it catches up to us all ... I wish him well and am looking forward to who the Bears get with the draft picks since I am now more confident that Poles has a clue
"Don't sweat the petty things and don't pet the sweaty things." George Carlin
I just wanted to say that having argued with DP over Ray Lewis and lost (about Lewis' speed when he came into the league), I can guarantee that in no way, shape, or form was DP comparing how good Roquan is in reference to how good Lewis was. DP holds Lewis on more than a bit of a pedestal. No way would he do that. I'm sure he was more comparing their styles rather than actual on field performance.
This is one of Rich's favorite Troll strawman techniques. It's like I once said that David Montgomery's running style, his take no prisoner/never die easy, style reminds me a lot of Walter Payton. Rich immediately jumps on me for comparing him to Payton. Said I can't do that. I reaffirmed that I was comparing their on field performance (Walter is one of my three childhood heroes). Of course, Rich wouldn't let it go, like the troll he is. You know who he compared Monty to? Matt Forte. lol You know, the guy who could be tackled by a shoelace, but was extremely fast. Again, I say that Montgomery is much closer to Walter in style than Forte. And that's not to say that he's EITHER of them. Just that his STYLE is very similar to Walter's.
So yeah, I can see Rich's ridiculous strawman is occurring once again with DP. He has NO point. Only stupid ass, disingenuous trolling.
Yogi da Bear wrote: ↑Tue Nov 08, 2022 9:28 pm
I just wanted to say that having argued with DP over Ray Lewis and lost (about Lewis' speed when he came into the league), I can guarantee that in no way, shape, or form was DP comparing how good Roquan is in reference to how good Lewis was. DP holds Lewis on more than a bit of a pedestal. No way would he do that. I'm sure he was more comparing their styles rather than actual on field performance.
This is one of Rich's favorite Troll strawman techniques. It's like I once said that David Montgomery's running style, his take no prisoner/never die easy, style reminds me a lot of Walter Payton. Rich immediately jumps on me for comparing him to Payton. Said I can't do that. I reaffirmed that I was comparing their on field performance (Walter is one of my three childhood heroes). Of course, Rich wouldn't let it go, like the troll he is. You know who he compared Monty to? Matt Forte. lol You know, the guy who could be tackled by a shoelace, but was extremely fast. Again, I say that Montgomery is much closer to Walter in style than Forte. And that's not to say that he's EITHER of them. Just that his STYLE is very similar to Walter's.
So yeah, I can see Rich's ridiculous strawman is occurring once again with DP. He has NO point. Only stupid ass, disingenuous trolling.
I remember once when IE was on board with trading Olson. I was not.
We disagreed.
We don’t bring it up to each other 11 years later.
Ray Lewis was the best I ever saw play LB. I never got to see Butkus play. Urlacher wasn’t close to Ray IMO, and Roquan is even farther away. I would absolutely never claim Roquan was in Ray Lewis class - no one would (and no one did).
There's a few of you who think rich is a troll, and a bunch of people who don't and interact with him fine.
You know what would be nice? The handful of you who think rich is a troll acting like adults and ignoring him if you don't like talking to him and shutting the fuck up about past things he's done.
Guess what, everyone's said stupid or shitty things here at some point. Including the people bitching about rich. We get it, you don't like how he posts. Ignore him. If he quotes you, be an adult and keep ignoring him
HurricaneBear wrote: ↑Wed Nov 09, 2022 7:16 am
There's a few of you who think rich is a troll, and a bunch of people who don't and interact with him fine.
You know what would be nice? The handful of you who think rich is a troll acting like adults and ignoring him if you don't like talking to him and shutting the fuck up about past things he's done.
Guess what, everyone's said stupid or shitty things here at some point. Including the people bitching about rich. We get it, you don't like how he posts. Ignore him. If he quotes you, be an adult and keep ignoring him
It's really not hard
Been doing exactly this for months and it’s raised my enjoyment of the board tremendously
HurricaneBear wrote: ↑Wed Nov 09, 2022 7:16 am
There's a few of you who think rich is a troll, and a bunch of people who don't and interact with him fine.
You know what would be nice? The handful of you who think rich is a troll acting like adults and ignoring him if you don't like talking to him and shutting the fuck up about past things he's done.
Guess what, everyone's said stupid or shitty things here at some point. Including the people bitching about rich. We get it, you don't like how he posts. Ignore him. If he quotes you, be an adult and keep ignoring him
It's really not hard
Cosigned. The ignore feature is there for a reason.
I've had him on ignore for a while now. But it's kind of hard to ignore when he's quoted. I've been trying to ignore those too. But in this case, in those quotes, he was calling out DP for comping Roquan to Ray Lewis when he did something very similar with me with Sweetness and Monty. In this instance, I KNEW that DP would NEVER really comp ANYBODY with Ray Lewis, let alone Roquan. I knew that from having already lost an argument to DP over Ray Lewis.
Just though I'd point that out and what Rich was doing.
I'll go back to ignoring even his quoted posts now though. It really has been so much more enjoyable.