NFL Admits Bears Got Screwed vs. Dolphins

[Dardango]

File this under "No Sh*t!"
https://www.windycitygridiron.com/2022/ ... ie-jackson

[Yogi da Bear]

Yeah, and what are they going to do about it? Absolutely nothing. Nothing will happen to the refs. It's ridiculous. The league has to be far more transparent about this. Who were the refs who screwed up? How often have they done so? What is enough to get one fired? Has somebody checked their bank accounts? lol

[dplank]

Yeah, and what are they going to do about it? Absolutely nothing. Nothing will happen to the refs. It's ridiculous. The league has to be far more transparent about this. Who were the refs who screwed up? How often have they done so? What is enough to get one fired? Has somebody checked their bank accounts? lol

How about just acknowledging that this cost a team a win and happens damn near every week, and for the sake of the sports integrity install a sky judge who has broad ability to correct mistakes in real time.

[HisRoyalSweetness]

That's the real issue.

The game is so fast moving that split second judgements have to be made. Officials are going to make mistakes. It happens in every sport; nobody's perfect. Sometimes they miss small things, but sometimes they're blatantly obvious. It happens.

But the technology exists to correct these in the moment. It is the NFL's responsibility to ensure that happens to protect the integrity of the game and ensure fairness both for the teams and their fans.

I cannot understand why the biggest penalty in the game isn't reviewable. They trialed a change in that a couple of years ago but didn't stick with it. They should have done. This was just a mid-season game, although in a short regular season of just 17 games in a league where 'parity' is sought every result is important, but when this happened in a Conference Championship game it decided which team progressed to the Super Bowl. That should have been all the wake-up call the league needed to resolve this problem. The fact that they haven't is a terrible indictment of those running the league.

Fans and the media need to keep applying pressure whenever these incidents occur because that's the only way the league will change.

[UOK]

I don't see why it's so hard to simply have a league review immediately. No challenge, nothing like that. The officials get an alert from the league office that they made a brazen error, the game is stopped, the officials review the play and adjust accordingly.

[VA_Mountain_Bear]

I don't see why it's so hard to simply have a league review immediately. No challenge, nothing like that. The officials get an alert from the league office that they made a brazen error, the game is stopped, the officials review the play and adjust accordingly.

Like most other things on Planet Earth...the simple, easy, and obvious fix to a problem is unofficially prohibited from being enacted.

[dplank]

I don't see why it's so hard to simply have a league review immediately. No challenge, nothing like that. The officials get an alert from the league office that they made a brazen error, the game is stopped, the officials review the play and adjust accordingly.

Yes UOK, this is exactly right and can be done tomorrow if they wanted to. The Sky Judge element makes it even more appealing to the refs as they can have the Sky Judge be a part of the game crew vs. being handled from a central location like the league office. This would ensure that the crew calling the game still has control of the game, and can call things fairly within their bubble. It might be weird having the league step in on calls that haven't been called all day long by a particular crew. Have the Sky Judge report to the head ref as part of his crew, there's no undercutting of his game authority it simply adds an extra member to his crew that has the benefit of technology at his fingertips to quickly flag blatantly missed calls. If all they did was address the blatant errors and take a closer look at some of these roughing penalties, that would go a long way towards fixing this even if it won't be perfect.

[The Marshall Plan]

The league acknowledges and fixes the problem on the same day the WWE fixes the problem with managers slipping their guy a folding chair.

All part of the entertainment.

For me, I want to see the FBI investigate corruption in sports and look at bank accounts and money movements.

The Sacramento Kings vs Lakers series isn’t the only time something like that has happened.

[Mikefive]

I don't see why it's so hard to simply have a league review immediately. No challenge, nothing like that. The officials get an alert from the league office that they made a brazen error, the game is stopped, the officials review the play and adjust accordingly.

Yes UOK, this is exactly right and can be done tomorrow if they wanted to. The Sky Judge element makes it even more appealing to the refs as they can have the Sky Judge be a part of the game crew vs. being handled from a central location like the league office. This would ensure that the crew calling the game still has control of the game, and can call things fairly within their bubble. It might be weird having the league step in on calls that haven't been called all day long by a particular crew. Have the Sky Judge report to the head ref as part of his crew, there's no undercutting of his game authority it simply adds an extra member to his crew that has the benefit of technology at his fingertips to quickly flag blatantly missed calls. If all they did was address the blatant errors and take a closer look at some of these roughing penalties, that would go a long way towards fixing this even if it won't be perfect.

Having the sky guy be part of the crew sounds a little too similar to the old PI review rule that ended up changing nothing in practice. Maybe I'm misunderstanding or perhaps its just semantics. But a sky judge should have override authority and not just be part of the team that has a vested interest in sticking with the original call.

[Arkansasbear]

The sky judge on PI calls shouldn’t slow down the game much. If the flag is thrown, he can start looking right then and should have about 30 to review the film before they finish making the call. If it’s not clear enough durning that time the call stands.

If no call is made, the offense can simply slow down the pace which gives them time to review before the snap. Again if it’s not clear enough for him to override in that time it stands.

[Boris13c]

the XFL used their version of the sky judge who was there at the game watching all plays and replays and only buzzed the on field reps when necessary ... it seemed to work very well and it did not slow the games

the NFL seems fixated on the fact their use of any sky judge effort has to involve their zebra command center in New York and refuse to understand that delays during games on reviews are because of that

I cannot understand why the NFL did not immediately copy the XFL in order to get this stuff right ... the refs are human and make mistakes ... correcting those mistakes real time should be the goal rather than some drawn out political process after the fact that does nothing but annoy everyone

[Bears Whiskey Nut]

Here's how it works.

Play goes forward. Pass is thrown and a DB may or may not have interfered with a receiver. A flag may or may not have been thrown. The sky judge glances at the play on three different 4K screens in front of him. If he feels that it's worthy of review, he pushes a button and alerts the head referee that he is reviewing the previous play. The referees gathers the stakeholder officials together. By the time they huddle up, the sky judge has made his decision and communicates that to the head referee on the field. They either pick up the flag and announce there is no penalty for PI, or announce that the previous play involved PI on the WR and that it was a spot foul. That whole process takes 30 seconds AT MOST. Game moves on.

Penalties that can be reviewed by the sky judge:
Pass Interference (offense or defense)
Defensive holding/Illegal contact
Roughing the passer (introduce college targeting rules where player can be ejected)

You have to review the defensive holding and illegal contact penalties because a lot of times these are initiated by the WR, or ridiculous ticky tack holding calls, which result in an automatic 1st down for the offense. On a play where, as the defense you have the offense backed up on 3rd & 18, and they get a bullshit defensive holding call, is complete bullshit. We've all seen it. Same thing with roughing the passer.

[Yogi da Bear]

The league acknowledges and fixes the problem on the same day the WWE fixes the problem with managers slipping their guy a folding chair.

All part of the entertainment.

For me, I want to see the FBI investigate corruption in sports and look at bank accounts and money movements.

The Sacramento Kings vs Lakers series isn’t the only time something like that has happened.

This^

I have no problem with the occasional missed call. For instance, I don't have a problem with the missed hands to the face call against Whitehair. I do, however, have a problem when they come back with a phantom holding call against Mustipher. Same with the PI. Phantom PI against Eddie but miss a blatant PI against Claypool.

Have you noticed when refs calls are bad, they almost invariably favor one team over another? Witness Pittsburgh last year. Personally, I don't think the league wants to fix the problem. They have and agenda themselves. They want certain teams and players to advance for their marketability. Hence, all the calls that favor Brady and Rodgers. To get this, they also risk the element of gambling getting involved. I think it's a sacrifice the league is willing to make or at least has been to date.

I would love to see the FBI make an investigation, but perhaps it has to start with a fan site that overviews calls and keeps accounts of the refs involved (across all leagues and sports). You know gather the evidence that makes the FBI involvement imperative.

Just a thought.

[RichH55]

Yeah, and what are they going to do about it? Absolutely nothing. Nothing will happen to the refs. It's ridiculous. The league has to be far more transparent about this. Who were the refs who screwed up? How often have they done so? What is enough to get one fired? Has somebody checked their bank accounts? lol

How much more transparent you want them to be?

The Refs are told to the general public who they are. The league said they got it wrong. Ok. What isn't transparent? They were still bad calls. But it what way do you want more transparency? You might want different words

Then of course the dumb its a payoff/conspiracy stuff. Always dumb.

[RichH55]

That's the real issue.

The game is so fast moving that split second judgements have to be made. Officials are going to make mistakes. It happens in every sport; nobody's perfect. Sometimes they miss small things, but sometimes they're blatantly obvious. It happens.

But the technology exists to correct these in the moment. It is the NFL's responsibility to ensure that happens to protect the integrity of the game and ensure fairness both for the teams and their fans.

I cannot understand why the biggest penalty in the game isn't reviewable. They trialed a change in that a couple of years ago but didn't stick with it. They should have done. This was just a mid-season game, although in a short regular season of just 17 games in a league where 'parity' is sought every result is important, but when this happened in a Conference Championship game it decided which team progressed to the Super Bowl. That should have been all the wake-up call the league needed to resolve this problem. The fact that they haven't is a terrible indictment of those running the league.

Fans and the media need to keep applying pressure whenever these incidents occur because that's the only way the league will change.

This is more interesting than the normal conspiracy diatribes.

Though - I don't see it as the panacea most do to be honest.

I don't see the Sky Judge even under the above overturning the Eddie Jackson penalty for example.

And lots of calls people start down the line of "Rigged" 20 Year conspiracy - NFL is akin to WWE - gar-bage - Are ticky tack or lack consistency or the rule itself is iffy/vague

The standard of review is going to be the key concept here in application. And if its clear and convincing evidence - it means alot less overturned calls then people would want (*)

(*) In my experience with Fans (short for fanatic!!!!) and parents in youth sports - Their take tends to be ANY call that goes against them or their team/kid is a bad call.

[RichH55]

The league acknowledges and fixes the problem on the same day the WWE fixes the problem with managers slipping their guy a folding chair.

All part of the entertainment.

For me, I want to see the FBI investigate corruption in sports and look at bank accounts and money movements.

The Sacramento Kings vs Lakers series isn’t the only time something like that has happened.

I would love to see the FBI make an investigation, but perhaps it has to start with a fan site that overviews calls and keeps accounts of the refs involved (across all leagues and sports). You know gather the evidence that makes the FBI involvement imperative.

Just a thought.

AND you get absolute nonsense like this.

[wab]

For any "sky judge" concept to work, the league would have to define what an egregious call is. That gets tricky.

Blatant PI calls/non calls, Roughing the Passer, Unnecessary roughness...calls like that feel like they would fall under that category.

Holding, offsides, hands to the face, etc...stuff that potentially happens on every play as a normal part of the game that are generally judgement calls would IMO not fall into that category.

[UOK]

For any "sky judge" concept to work, the league would have to define what an egregious call is. That gets tricky.

Blatant PI calls/non calls, Roughing the Passer, Unnecessary roughness...calls like that feel like they would fall under that category.

Holding, offsides, hands to the face, etc...stuff that potentially happens on every play as a normal part of the game that are generally judgement calls would IMO not fall into that category.

In my imagination, this Sky Judge thing would be limited to the final 5 minutes of the 4th quarter, and would be extremely rare.

[malk]

For any "sky judge" concept to work, the league would have to define what an egregious call is. That gets tricky.

Blatant PI calls/non calls, Roughing the Passer, Unnecessary roughness...calls like that feel like they would fall under that category.

Holding, offsides, hands to the face, etc...stuff that potentially happens on every play as a normal part of the game that are generally judgement calls would IMO not fall into that category.

I think this is the main issue really. You want to catch the big stuff and let the little stuff slide. Personally I think being able to operate on the edge of the rules, or just beyond them without getting caught, is a skill that you don't want to get rid of! But the massive calls just need to be addressed and our recent example with the egregious no call on obvious PI is a good example.

In rugby you have a Television Match Official who the referee can go to to check certain calls, e.g. whether a try was scored and that's not too dissimilar to how the NFL now reviews every score. But they also watch the whole game and if they see evidence of "foul play" that the three on field refs miss they call down to the main ref and ask him to review. It'd be trivial to introduce this for quite a few plays, anything egregious, foul play, roughing the passer etc.

Just madness that a league with an existing structure for challenges and checking video doesn't get this sorted out.

[RichH55]

For any "sky judge" concept to work, the league would have to define what an egregious call is. That gets tricky.

Blatant PI calls/non calls, Roughing the Passer, Unnecessary roughness...calls like that feel like they would fall under that category.

Holding, offsides, hands to the face, etc...stuff that potentially happens on every play as a normal part of the game that are generally judgement calls would IMO not fall into that category.

In my imagination, this Sky Judge thing would be limited to the final 5 minutes of the 4th quarter, and would be extremely rare.

I can get behind this.

[wab]

For any "sky judge" concept to work, the league would have to define what an egregious call is. That gets tricky.

Blatant PI calls/non calls, Roughing the Passer, Unnecessary roughness...calls like that feel like they would fall under that category.

Holding, offsides, hands to the face, etc...stuff that potentially happens on every play as a normal part of the game that are generally judgement calls would IMO not fall into that category.

In my imagination, this Sky Judge thing would be limited to the final 5 minutes of the 4th quarter, and would be extremely rare.

I was actually thinking about that. I was actually thinking inside the 2 minute warning when the play call is on the other side of the 50.

I like your idea better.

[dplank]

For any "sky judge" concept to work, the league would have to define what an egregious call is. That gets tricky.

Blatant PI calls/non calls, Roughing the Passer, Unnecessary roughness...calls like that feel like they would fall under that category.

Holding, offsides, hands to the face, etc...stuff that potentially happens on every play as a normal part of the game that are generally judgement calls would IMO not fall into that category.

I think this is the main issue really. You want to catch the big stuff and let the little stuff slide. Personally I think being able to operate on the edge of the rules, or just beyond them without getting caught, is a skill that you don't want to get rid of! But the massive calls just need to be addressed and our recent example with the egregious no call on obvious PI is a good example.

In rugby you have a Television Match Official who the referee can go to to check certain calls, e.g. whether a try was scored and that's not too dissimilar to how the NFL now reviews every score. But they also watch the whole game and if they see evidence of "foul play" that the three on field refs miss they call down to the main ref and ask him to review. It'd be trivial to introduce this for quite a few plays, anything egregious, foul play, roughing the passer etc.

Just madness that a league with an existing structure for challenges and checking video doesn't get this sorted out.

This is the exact model I have in mind. Give the Sky Judge broad ability to notify the ref that they missed something obvious. It doesn’t have to be perfect, it just needs to correct the blatant mistakes.

For example, the phantom hold on Mustipher would not be fixed here. The PI on EJax, maybe and maybe not. But that PI on Claypool at the end? Absofuckinglutely. They could also fix a lot of these bogus QB roughing calls.

[bbaker]

I would add one more category that DOES have the potential to address minor infractions in the case that a minor penalty (holding, hands to the face, illegal contact, BLOCK IN THE BACK, etc) is called and it negates a big play of some sort. That category would need to be specifically defined but should include things like a touchdown, turnover, 4th down conversion, 20+ yard play, etc.

We’ve seen so many big plays taken away due to a bad call on a minor infraction (like a block in the back). I think this is as important as a big penalty that is missed or huge phantom calls.

[wab]

I would add one more category that DOES have the potential to address minor infractions in the case that a minor penalty (holding, hands to the face, illegal contact, BLOCK IN THE BACK, etc) is called and it negates a big play of some sort. That category would need to be specifically defined but should include things like a touchdown, turnover, 4th down conversion, 20+ yard play, etc.

We’ve seen so many big plays taken away due to a bad call on a minor infraction (like a block in the back). I think this is as important as a big penalty that is missed or huge phantom calls.

Too big of a can of worms. Minor infractions would have to be left out of it IMO.

Unless it's falls within the scenario that UOK outlined and it happens in the 4thQ with less than 5 minutes to play. If it happens in the first half, there's enough time left to overcome that bad/missed call.

[BigDaddy]

Ya know, I'd be just as happy if they did away with pass interference all together... Let the WR and DB go at it, whoever wins, wins...We've tried the review and the NFL stopped that. They probably got tired of all the time taken for reviews and also the failure rate of the referees. The only other way to curtail bad calls is to actually initiate a penalty system for the refs . Each week, review the bad calls. First miss, fine them, second miss, fine them more, third miss, they sit for 4 games, fourth miss, they sit for the remaining season. At the very least, that might force the league to revisit what pass interference really is. Maybe they would let the DBs and WRs go at it a bit more and not have so many ticky tacky PI calls.

I just hate to see referees deciding games. Fields worked his ass off the put this team in a position to tie or win that game and to have that taken away because of a bad call is just sad. To think our referees still don't know what pass interference is, is totally ridiculous

[IotaNet]

The league acknowledges and fixes the problem on the same day the WWE fixes the problem with managers slipping their guy a folding chair.

All part of the entertainment.

For me, I want to see the FBI investigate corruption in sports and look at bank accounts and money movements.

The Sacramento Kings vs Lakers series isn’t the only time something like that has happened.

I hate to be "That [::cough:: tinfoil hat::cough] guy" but the partnership of the NFL with gambling interests really gives me pause in situations like this.

When you're talking about literally billions of dollars being bet on NFL games in a season, that's simply too much money to believe that someone can't be corrupted. Especially now that gambling is an official partner. Big money isn't about taking chances -- big money is about finding an edge.

I'm not calling for an investigation, but I think it calls for some serious thought.

[Grizzled]

The NFL is a multibillion dollar industry. Ref calls, even early in a game, can affect the outcome and cost a team a victory and their playoff standing. The big question is what should be reviewable. P.I., changes of possession, anything else?

[Otis Day]

Not sure why the NFL even comes out with this type of news. Nothing gets done about regarding the game. It does no one any good. The refs probably get more death threats is all. Everyone saw the replay, we all knew who got screwed. I don't need the NFL coming out days later stating the obvious.

[Yogi da Bear]

Why should calls be limited to PI? I find that holding, hands to the face, illegal contact, defensive holding can all be equally egregious. It's all in the context in which they occur.



I find that hold egregious. Could very well have prevented a sack. Probably did. Hell, I even saw Mack tackled from behind as he was chasing Rodgers that wasn't called. Rodgers threw a TD on that play. And the hands to the face here? Could have been egregious except that Fields avoided the sack. Still, the hands to the face allowed the defender to throw Whitehair to the ground and almost get a sack. If a sack occurred, I would say that was egregious. A BS hold or illegal contact on a third and 20, I would call egregious.

If you're going to do something, I don't think you limit it to a particular foul like PI or roughing. You have to consider the impact of the foul, particularly if you limit review to say the last five minutes of the game.

[wab]

Then you have to limit it to the last 5 minutes of the 4thQ line UOK proposed.