Poles Poll (heh)

[malk]

A solid B for me.

I think we went into the season hoping for more, a softer rebuild and an outside shot of making a wild card slot. That didn't happen for various reasons, some injuries, some signings not working out brilliantly, Fields not setting on fire right out of the gate... but the pivot to a harder rebuild was well done and the later pivot to full tank was great.

To get an A I would have liked to see some more speculative free agent contracts, 3/4 year deals for mid/upper mid tier money for players with upside, and some of them look like they were coming off. That said, they likely would have stopped our harder rebuild and the full tank pivot so perhaps this should have been an A all along.

Yeah, As would either have been more free agency signing/success and a playoff spot or this rebuild. I think I should have given an A.

[dave99]

If you grade Poles on won/lost record is a D at best, but if you grade him on progress made in the initial year of a rebuild I give him a solid B. I think this quote from the Sun Time this morning sums things up nicely:

On Sunday, the Bears were able to pull off quite the coup. They concluded Fields was worthy of building around, and they stumbled into the No. 1 pick in the draft. That would be enough to refill fans’ hope bucket, but there’s more. Part of the reason this Bears season was so bad was because general manager Ryan Poles had an inexpensive roster. Player salaries were kept low so Poles could stockpile cash and get ready for upcoming free agency.

As it stands, the Bears have more cap space than any team in the league, the most coveted draft position and a quarterback they feel good about. It’s quite the trifecta. One that allows them to set the agenda of the NFL offseason. A place where no one would’ve expected this franchise to be 12 months ago.

https://chicago.suntimes.com/bears/2023 ... onte-draft

[dplank]

A salient quote from an Atlantic article this morning about Poles

As a baseball executive once told me about the popularity of rebuilds in his sport, it’s the easiest thing in the world to trade talent for prospects. It’s a lot more difficult to actually build a winning team.

[HurricaneBear]

A salient quote from an Atlantic article this morning about Poles

As a baseball executive once told me about the popularity of rebuilds in his sport, it’s the easiest thing in the world to trade talent for prospects. It’s a lot more difficult to actually build a winning team.

And yet, previous Bears GMs couldnt figure out how to do what Poles just did, ever. The building part starts this offseason and so should be graded after he's actually had time to follow his plan.

For the first time, ever?, the Bears have the most cap space in the NFL, the number 1 pick in the draft, and they have a QB who has the potential to be the most dangerous player in football. If there has ever been a more exciting time to be a Bears fan, I haven't been old enough/alive to see it.

If he fucks this offseason up, then we burn the witch.

[dplank]

Agree Hurricane, this is all premature and the real work is coming up. Pace gutted and rebuilt also BTW and positioned us with a 3 win season, just happened to be 3rd pick instead of first but GMs can’t control that sort of thing. Pace quickly restocked and we had a great early run, then he floundered and chased the dragon until he was fired.

Tearing down is easy IMO.

[IE]

I recognize and understand how all the things Poles did & did NOT do impacted where he is now. And to me, it looks very highly deliberate and highly effective (including a good dose of luck - which all success contains). This is "so far" (which was the poll question). I'll call it "Poles Phase 1", and for that I give him a resounding A. Here's why:

End of Phase 1 Scorecard / KPIs: financial position, draft position, roster assessment, league level competence, initial draft results, team leadership, team culture.

Results:

- He could not be in much better financial position (sorry lovers of old guys but the NFL is a young man's game)
- He could not be in much better draft position (boo-hoo on the comp pick, man - talk about petty and uncertain nitpicking)
- He could not have much better information about what his current roster can & can't do (thank goodness we got to see Jones and Borom instead of Reiff and whoever!)
- He proved to be adept at working with other teams and understanding other team rosters, the FA market, etc. He mitigated a very weak '23 WR market with a WR who proved he can be a productive weapon in Pittsburgh - and will in Chicago as well. He grabbed two inexpensive reclamation projects, and while the jury is out proves he will leave no stone unturned to improve the roster.
- He turned 5 draft picks (no first rounder) into 4 starters (Gordon, Brisker, Jones, Gill), 2 regular contributors who could become starters (Velus, DomRob) and 3 more who *might* be players at some point (Carter, Kramer, Hicks).
- He enabled the franchise QB to develop on the field and as a leader in spite of the draconian stuff he needed to do in order to support said QB properly long-term.
- He's rebuilt the team culture with a coaching staff that to me seems like the authentic deal. My first impression of Flus was "too coachy"... and he won me over big time.

These are not easily accomplish-able things. Saying they are doesn't make it so. Oversimplifying and lumping these challenges into one term (tear down) is weird to me. What's the point of being like that?

Some might say the ends don't justify the means but I'm a big Covey guy and love how Poles kept the end in mind in every move. I love how he didn't bring in a guy like Amari Cooper to net a few extra wins and reduce the value of the current situation. Same with the OL- I love how he didn't bring in to reduce transparency regarding what he did have on the roster & and prohibit the development of (or learning about) guys like Jones, Jenk and Borom. A huge number of JF1's sacks were him learning. That was always going to be the case, and even a franchise LT via FA wouldn't have changed that one bit. And oftentimes injuries happen on an OL and a QB gets sacked 6 times - it happens. Poles never let fear of that undermine the future. Nobody was selling him the "QB will get killed" hyperbole.

In my opinion it is preposterous to say the Bears have the worst roster in the NFL, and the record they managed to get to at the end is absolutely not the same topic. Records are a function of team play and significant context. Rosters are made up of a large number of players of varying skill levels/experience/etc, and there are thresholds in the NFL where a subset of weaknesses can render the entire team incapable of winning even with many good and promising players. Raw "tearing it down" implies backing up the dumpster and fielding an awful team all year - and I don't see that he did that at all. It has been FAR worse and outright embarrassing watching some past Bear teams with far better records. This team was never embarrassing. The team was actually pretty fun to watch a good part of the season - because there were a good number of players who ARE going to be really good & were fun to watch.

I believe my opinion that the roster is not all bad will be proved out WHEN a high number of the exact same players are part of a 10+ win team next year. It was the most fun and most encouraging 3-win season ever. Because the fun and encouraging things are very real and absolutely meaningful - despite the losing.

Again I gave him an A - and I'd make it an A+ just to rub it in with some folks who for some bizarre reason think being on the fence and/or not trusting their eyes makes their hedged opinions somehow better. LOL - it doesn't in the least.

A Grade for Phase 1, baby. *Could* Poles end up squandering the position he so purposely set up? Perhaps. But base on competence demonstrated to-date, that seems unlikely. Bears got a good one.

[IE]

I like Roquan as a player but also think he's a strange dude. He makes a lot of tackles and gets a lot of attention for that. He should, at his new rate of $194K per solo tackle.

I wasn't thrilled at Poles moving Roquan because of his age and the prospect of having one defensive position solidified. But I DO understand that money is not what Poles has in the plan in terms of what he wants to allocate to various defensive positions based on replacement level and relative importance of positions in Flus' defense. He's said as much.

I'm pretty sure that $20MM is going to go to an EDGE and I'm going to guess we will like the results even if it means having the UDFA from Wisconsin at LB only making 135 tackles.

[dplank]

In my opinion it is preposterous to say the Bears have the worst roster in the NFL, and the record they managed to get to at the end is absolutely not the same topic. Records are a function of team play and significant context. Rosters are made up of a large number of players of varying skill levels/experience/etc, and there are thresholds in the NFL where a subset of weaknesses can render the entire team incapable of winning even with many good and promising players. Raw "tearing it down" implies backing up the dumpster and fielding an awful team all year - and I don't see that he did that at all. It has been FAR worse and outright embarrassing watching some past Bear teams with far better records. This team was never embarrassing. The team was actually pretty fun to watch a good part of the season - because there were a good number of players who ARE going to be really good & were fun to watch.

Bud you hammered on this point before the season and insisted everyone was wrong, then we turned around and had a historically terrible season resulting in the first #1 pick since 1947. This take strains credibility. WE LOST OUR LAST 10 STRAIGHT GAMES! HELLO? Every team has closes, it's the NFL. The national media and vast majority of people here were absolutely right about our roster, and that was proven out by the fact that we have the #1 pick (you don't get that by winning lol). He 1000% tore this roster down: he dumped Mack, Roquan, and Quinn all for draft capital - that's our 3 best defensive players right there - there couldn't be a more clear example of a tear down than that. If that's not a teardown, nothing is. And this team WAS downright embarrassing on that side of the ball. This team was also historically bad in pass protection, something Poles himself acknowledged in his presser.

The ONLY thing that kept this team fun to watch was Justin Fields. And the simple fact is that Ryan Pace got us Fields with an aggressive trade up. Poles doesn't get to take credit for Justin Fields being on this roster and providing the only positive element of the season.

There's just no need to go to the mattresses on this point, it's so obvious to everyone else. Poles did what he did, and I think everyone here LIKES IT. A tear down is what was needed, many of us wanted to start the tear down a full season earlier even! It's not a bad thing at all, I'm glad he did it and I credit him for taking his lumps and doing what was necessary. Good on Poles. Now the easy part is done, and the hard part begins.

[Yogi da Bear]

A Grade for Phase 1, baby. *Could* Poles end up squandering the position he so purposely set up? Perhaps. But base on competence demonstrated to-date, that seems unlikely. Bears got a good one.

"Competence" to date? What an odd thought for the worst team in the league finishing with the worst record in the league. I can only wonder if you would give an A to France for their performance in WW II.

[RichH55]

UOK edit: Let's just agree to disagree and move on

[IE]

A Grade for Phase 1, baby. *Could* Poles end up squandering the position he so purposely set up? Perhaps. But base on competence demonstrated to-date, that seems unlikely. Bears got a good one.

"Competence" to date? What an odd thought for the worst team in the league finishing with the worst record in the league. I can only wonder if you would give an A to France for their performance in WW II.

I answered your point in my actual post - showing you didn't even read or try to understand it. I can explain it to you - but I can't understand it for you.

[The Marshall Plan]

Way too early either way on Poles.

I know I said I don’t how I’d vote and I maintain that.

We will know next year if this guy is a legit dumbass or crazy like a fox.

There were some breadcrumbs in the year end presser but I’d believe an astrologer before I’d believe anything said in those things. No offense implied.

I’ve seen things both ways with Poles. Dumbass FA moves, same with the draft.

Then I’ve seen things like ok this guy really did flush Pace’s turd. That couldn’t have been easy.

I’ll know after the draft.

Or…….

Ok fine there’s a gun to my head.

I vote that he’s a dumbass. But again I don’t know.

[wab]

I know you are like super down on all things Bears that aren't JF1...but I'm genuinely curious what is it about Poles that makes you think he's a dumbass? (I don't know if he is or isn't...but it's been a very very long time since I've felt this good about a Bears GM)

[Burl]

I dunno…. C?
Tear down was good, but a group of unskilled laborers can knock about any building down. It actually takes skill to build one.

I think the Claypool trade was a bust.
But I totally supported the Mack, Quinn and Roquan trades.
First draft looks decent but no obvious superstars.

Big draft coming up.

[dplank]

I dunno…. C?
Tear down was good, but a group of unskilled laborers can knock about any building down. It actually takes skill to build one.

I think the Claypool trade was a bust.
But I totally supported the Mack, Quinn and Roquan trades.
First draft looks decent but no obvious superstars.

Big draft coming up.

Solid take IMO

[The Marshall Plan]

I know you are like super down on all things Bears that aren't JF1...but I'm genuinely curious what is it about Poles that makes you think he's a dumbass? (I don't know if he is or isn't...but it's been a very very long time since I've felt this good about a Bears GM)

Just note that I've qualified things by saying it's too early to tell.

I'm not impressed by 2022 FA and the 2022 draft. Roquan Gate was also a disgrace.

Then was getting the #1 pick really some James Bond villain like master plan or did he just back into it?

I'm reserving judgement until after the draft.

[wab]

I know you are like super down on all things Bears that aren't JF1...but I'm genuinely curious what is it about Poles that makes you think he's a dumbass? (I don't know if he is or isn't...but it's been a very very long time since I've felt this good about a Bears GM)

Just note that I've qualified things by saying it's too early to tell.

I'm not impressed by 2022 FA and the 2022 draft. Roquan Gate was also a disgrace.

Then was getting the #1 pick really some James Bond villain like master plan or did he just back into it?

I'm reserving judgement until after the draft.

I disagree about the draft, but otherwise fair points.

[malk]

In my opinion it is preposterous to say the Bears have the worst roster in the NFL, and the record they managed to get to at the end is absolutely not the same topic. Records are a function of team play and significant context. Rosters are made up of a large number of players of varying skill levels/experience/etc, and there are thresholds in the NFL where a subset of weaknesses can render the entire team incapable of winning even with many good and promising players. Raw "tearing it down" implies backing up the dumpster and fielding an awful team all year - and I don't see that he did that at all. It has been FAR worse and outright embarrassing watching some past Bear teams with far better records. This team was never embarrassing. The team was actually pretty fun to watch a good part of the season - because there were a good number of players who ARE going to be really good & were fun to watch.

Bud you hammered on this point before the season and insisted everyone was wrong, then we turned around and had a historically terrible season resulting in the first #1 pick since 1947. This take strains credibility. WE LOST OUR LAST 10 STRAIGHT GAMES! HELLO? Every team has closes, it's the NFL. The national media and vast majority of people here were absolutely right about our roster, and that was proven out by the fact that we have the #1 pick (you don't get that by winning lol). He 1000% tore this roster down: he dumped Mack, Roquan, and Quinn all for draft capital - that's our 3 best defensive players right there - there couldn't be a more clear example of a tear down than that. If that's not a teardown, nothing is. And this team WAS downright embarrassing on that side of the ball. This team was also historically bad in pass protection, something Poles himself acknowledged in his presser.

The ONLY thing that kept this team fun to watch was Justin Fields. And the simple fact is that Ryan Pace got us Fields with an aggressive trade up. Poles doesn't get to take credit for Justin Fields being on this roster and providing the only positive element of the season.

There's just no need to go to the mattresses on this point, it's so obvious to everyone else. Poles did what he did, and I think everyone here LIKES IT. A tear down is what was needed, many of us wanted to start the tear down a full season earlier even! It's not a bad thing at all, I'm glad he did it and I credit him for taking his lumps and doing what was necessary. Good on Poles. Now the easy part is done, and the hard part begins.

People keep talking about how easy it is to tear down a team as if that's exactly what happened this year when it simply isn't the case. Yes, if you blow up completely and get rid of everything that isn't difficult. Then yes, it's hard to build up from virtually nothing to get to a winning team. But that isn't where we are. Compare 2021 to 2022

QB is the same.
RB was the same.
WR we lost Allen Robinson but he only contributed 410 yards in 2021 and only got 339 with the Rams in 2022. The rest were much of a muchness swaps of 2nd tier at best players plus hopefully something in Claypool. The biggest difference was Mooney's injury meaning we lost a few hundred yards from him.
Oline we bascially swapped 39 year old Jason Peters for Braxton Jones and Daniels for Jenkins. Well, and Ifedi and Bars etc. for Patrick and Reiff.
TE was the same bar for letting go of 167 yards and 3 TDs from 35 year old Jimmy Graham.

So on offence did we tear it down or did we let go a malcontent WR who wan't producing and took plays off, replace a 39 year old with a rookie at LT, let go an ageing TE who didn't contribute much and, arguably the only significant downgrade, was Daniels to Jenkins and I'm personally perfectly fine with that.

On defence:

Dline we lost Mack, Quinn, Hicks and Nichols. But if you take away fond memories of previous years, Mack had six sacks for us last year and now 31 only got 8 for the Chargers. Hicks was pretty shot in 2021 and got 1 sacks for Tampa Bay in 2022. Quinn was great last year but, at 32 got 1 sack for us and 0 for the Eagles this year. Nichols was definitely a loss but hasn't set the world on fire for the Raiders. We brought in Justin Jones who is better than Hicks is now and about the same as Nichols. Muhammad had a poor year and the rest are JAGs (some some of which were on the roster last year). Oh and Goldman retired, nothing much we could do about that.
Linebacker we swapped Smith and Ogletree for Morrow and Sanborn. Morrow is better than Ogletree but losing Smith is a downgrade. Obviously quite a few of us are happy with that downgrade rather than paying him $20m but that's another matter.
Defensive backs we kept Jackson and Johnson then swapped Gipson and Vildor/loads of whomevers for Brisker and Gordon.

Others might disagree but I genuinely think the only downgrades here are Smith, Mack and Quinn. Mack and Quinn pretty much had to go as they're going to be over the hill by the time we're properly competing. For Smith we might have got a significant proportion of his play from Sanborn for a fraction of the cost. Upgrades are Brisker over Gipson, Gordon over Vildor (even if Gordon doesn't entirely work out). Even on our pretty awful dline you could argue Jones is slightly better than Nichols and a warm body is a wash with Hicks (who was great but is shot now).

So overall I don't think we've had a complete teardown. We lost 2 pieces that weren't old (Smith and Daniels) and have credible (if not cast iron) replacements for them in Sanborn and Jenkins. We've then upgraded and got younger at left tackle and strong safety plus likely improved at one of our corner slots. That's a decent start to a rebuild rather than a full teardown. And we've done that in a season where we didn't have lots of draft capital and have also improved to have amazing cap space and brilliant draft capital.

Oh and we have been able to see some improvement from Fields.

Poles absolutely deserves credit for this.

[IE]

There's a few more than this, even... but even 3 of 5 would be stellar. With no first rounder! A!

https://www.chicagobears.com/news/three ... rn-brisker

[karhu]

People

<...>

this.

A-fucking-men.

[The Cooler King]

Are we now quibbling about scale? It wasn't a tear down because we were already near the floor?

[malk]

Are we now quibbling about scale? It wasn't a tear down because we were already near the floor?

The posts I was replying to were arguing about whether we were the worst roster in the NFL. I don't think that's close to being true, we're a league average edge rusher, DT and a decently healthy offensive line away from being lower middle of the road. I said a little while back that we much be up there when it comes to the best teams to get a #1 overall pick.

[Moriarty]

People keep talking about how easy it is to tear down a team as if that's exactly what happened this year when it simply isn't the case. Yes, if you blow up completely and get rid of everything that isn't difficult. Then yes, it's hard to build up from virtually nothing to get to a winning team. But that isn't where we are. Compare 2021 to 2022

Are we now quibbling about scale? It wasn't a tear down because we were already near the floor?

Yeah, I don't understand (what seems to be) the thesis that keeping some players is harder than keeping 0 players - at all.


At any rate, it also doesn't matter, because no team ever keeps 0 of last season's 53 players when they rebuild. Never.
Even if you're just talking 22 starters - there's no such thing as dumping them all in one offseason. Nonexistent. It doesn't happen.
There's always some retention, at least for a year or two.

The Bears had, I believe, 19 carryovers from 2021 on Opening Day (which would be 17 after Quinn + Roquan).
That's a MASSIVE tear down. I'm guessing it probably isn't quite an NFL record, but it's very, very, very low.
Even for a team with a new GM & HC.

[dplank]

Agree. This was an obvious tear down and it’s not remotely debatable IMO. You can’t dump everyone but when you dump every good vet you have, that’s a tear down. Of course he kept the young guys, that’s part of how you execute a tear down.

And yes, we fielded the worst roster in the NFL. How else do you explain having the worst record? Bad coaching? It’s not injuries, we didn’t rank top 5 even in injuries. Every talking head across the league said that we had the worst roster, then we turned around and proved it by losing the most games. This isn’t hard. Every team loses close games, that’s just how the NFL works.

That said I agree with the positive outlook. I like the young guys we have, so I think we can turn this around pretty quickly. Maybe we are arguing semantics here? I’d agree that we aren’t in the worst position as a franchise, not by a long shot. Is that what you mean?

[The Cooler King]

Are we now quibbling about scale? It wasn't a tear down because we were already near the floor?

The posts I was replying to were arguing about whether we were the worst roster in the NFL. I don't think that's close to being true, we're a league average edge rusher, DT and a decently healthy offensive line away from being lower middle of the road. I said a little while back that we much be up there when it comes to the best teams to get a #1 overall pick.

I see. If that's true it's highly dependent on Fields. Post trade deadline our D front 7 has to be more than comesurate with a #1 pick team. OLine obviously more questions than answers.

[bbaker]

^^THIS^^

If you remove Fields from this team, it is easily the worst roster in the league.

[Yogi da Bear]

Anybody that enjoyed watching our defense in the second half of the season is a masochist.

[Ditka’s dictaphone]

It wasn’t a “tear down”, it was a “stealth tank”.

The art of tanking without “tanking”.

I’ve no idea how we absolutely gubbed the Patriots and then lost 10 straight. We were competitive for 3 quarters in most of those 10 and then fell apart in Q4 just enough to snatch defeat from the jaws of victory.

[malk]

The posts I was replying to were arguing about whether we were the worst roster in the NFL. I don't think that's close to being true, we're a league average edge rusher, DT and a decently healthy offensive line away from being lower middle of the road. I said a little while back that we much be up there when it comes to the best teams to get a #1 overall pick.

I see. If that's true it's highly dependent on Fields. Post trade deadline our D front 7 has to be more than comesurate with a #1 pick team. OLine obviously more questions than answers.

Admittedly I'm not someone who watches all the games for other teams but I'm really not sure this is the case as we were able to do pretty well against some good teams. If you were talking about the just the players on the field for the last quarter or so of the season, then sure. But if Jackson, Johnson and Sanborn are back along with Brisker and Gordon then that defence is much better and, as I've said a few times in different threads, a half decent pass rush away from likely being league average.

Similarly with the front 7 point, it was the front 4 and injuries really. Which is to that that Morrow and Sanborn looked pretty good together, or at the absolute worst pretty decent. Now Morrow might not be back but he definitely could be. Then if Jones is sufficiently ok (3 sacks, 12 TFL and 7 QB pressures isn't the worst) then it isn't 7 that need replacing but 3. Not a small ask but definitely easier than 7!

Plus if I'm being optimistic (and why not, it's the off season now!) Gipson didn't impress as a starter but he did manage 18 pressures with 8 hurries, 7 QB knockdowns and 3 sacks. That's as a raw player, moving back to hand in the dirt and starting 10 with a good amount of focus as we didn't have players that needed double teams. You move him back into a rotational role next year and his production could get a relative bump, at least in efficiency.

Plus plus if I'm being *really* optimistic then Muhammad might get back to 2021 form as an ok rotational player. I wasn't expecting loads from him but more than he produced, it was basically his worst season as a pro (i.e. excluding his 24 snap rookie year).

^^THIS^^

If you remove Fields from this team, it is easily the worst roster in the league.

Genuinely, is this true? Would that make us worse than the Texans, Cardinals, Colts etc? It's easy to look at our games and think ugh but there are 5-10 other fanbases doing the same.

[Yogi da Bear]

"Competence" to date? What an odd thought for the worst team in the league finishing with the worst record in the league. I can only wonder if you would give an A to France for their performance in WW II.

I answered your point in my actual post - showing you didn't even read or try to understand it. I can explain it to you - but I can't understand it for you.

Oh, I read it, even understood it in my tiny, little brain. Don't agree with it, but I understood it. My whole point here is that even if you agree with it, it's still on its face an "odd thought" as you set records for losing in the 100-year history of the Bears to talk of their "competence" in doing so. If YOU don't see or understand THAT, I don't know what to say to you. If he only wins two games next year, do we give out A+++s?