Poles Poll (heh)

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Moderator: wab

How do you grade Poles as a GM so far?

A
7
15%
B
21
44%
C
19
40%
D
1
2%
F
0
No votes
 
Total votes: 48
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Ditka’s dictaphone wrote: Thu Jan 12, 2023 2:07 am It wasn’t a “tear down”, it was a “stealth tank”.

The art of tanking without “tanking”.

I’ve no idea how we absolutely gubbed the Patriots and then lost 10 straight. We were competitive for 3 quarters in most of those 10 and then fell apart in Q4 just enough to snatch defeat from the jaws of victory.
A post later in the season was titled "what happened?" because earlier in the season it did not look like the team was going to go on an epic losing streak. At some points early-mid season they were looking highly competitive and looking pretty unlucky. But then, an incremental subtraction through trades and IR that nearly ensured the team would (could) not win down the stretch. I was surprised by the "what happened" post because I thought it was clear that Poles was executing his plan and then as the season (and losing) went on he went into overdrive to get the most out of it.

I understand the insistence that what Poles did was easy won't go away, and recognize people want (or need) to say "easy tear down" because it helps them stay on the fence about the new GM. I don't feel a need to be on the fence when I've seen enough so far to give a great grade so far. Being unable to know what is going to happen in the future doesn't hamper my ability to assess what has happened so far... to understand why & assess whether I think the GM had good plan and how he did. The current status to me proves it was a good plan.

Some of the criticism to justify lower grades seems a bit obtuse to me. I find it odd to criticize the GM's FA moves when they were deliberately executed according to his plan that included NOT bringing in some of the players that people are complaining about him not bringing in. I understand his plan, and LIKE his plan. He did what he did for darn good reason. Comments like "...but he COULD have done THIS" entirely miss the point. His plan included NOT bringing in high priced guys or "point stars" (e.g. like Amari Cooper) to artificially sweeten a season that was going to be sour regardless... him not bringing in FA and hurting his visibility around what he had "in hand" was a plus.

Poles did not "obviously" set about to lose. I believe they started out intending to "see what we have" but also compete while they could. The team with Roquan and Quinn wasn't completely torn down to start the season, and in spite of some early learning by JF1 (and Getsy) they were 3-4 and actually playing better than that record. Eddie and the DBs were playing very well. The young Oline was expected to get better (and did). The comeback vs the Vikes was amazing and was (along with the Steeler game last year) all the proof anyone needed that JF1 was THAT guy. The team played well against Commanders too - putting 400 yards of offense on that team, and shutting them down on D (unfortunately the TD just weren't coming that game). Then New England game everything was clicking...not just JF1 but the D as well. Despite all the claims of "teardown" and the fact that they were leaning on a really amazing mix of rookies and 2nd year players... Poles had fielded a .500 (ish) team through early mid season. The Bears looked pretty good against the Cowboys even without Quinn (until the end) and Dolphins the entire game without Roquan. Those are really good teams. They traded punches with Philly the entire game - a lot of teams can't. It wasn't just JF1 - the D played inspired ball... a testament to the coaches, culture and Poles being able to find nobodies who can actually play.

I like the fact that Poles had a plan, and he stuck with it. Even though the team was showing competitiveness, after the NE game he went into the next stage of his plan and traded assets he didn't want for what he could get. He was prioritizing the future over the present - that included trading key defensive players and embarking upon the most conspicuous use of IR I've ever seen. It was comical the teams they were fielding toward the end of the season, where they were basically just running out the clock on the '22 season - having learned everything they needed to learn & having only one goal which was to get the highest pick possible. Mission accomplished.
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Worst DL in the NFL does not equate to worst roster in the NFL. Everybody knows the defensive front is where Poles had to do a lot of draconian things, and as a result is the priority in the offseason.

But the roster is the entire roster. And it is NOT the worst in the NFL. The Bear defensive backfield is really good. The Oline, despite injuries and guys switching around, was ranked fairly decently for a good part of the season. Winning NFL teams generally have to run the ball well. Pass pro improvement is next - and that will come including a new horse or two and continued development of the Oline along with JF1 in the new scheme and with regard to his style. The running backs are good. The TE elevated and while they could use help there a LOT of teams don't have a Kmet level TE. The WR room needs a little work but is serviceable with maybe one key addition. Special teams is good.
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IE wrote: Thu Jan 12, 2023 10:39 am Worst DL in the NFL does not equate to worst roster in the NFL. Everybody knows the defensive front is where Poles had to do a lot of draconian things, and as a result is the priority in the offseason.

But the roster is the entire roster. And it is NOT the worst in the NFL. The Bear defensive backfield is really good. The Oline, despite injuries and guys switching around, was ranked fairly decently for a good part of the season. Winning NFL teams generally have to run the ball well. Pass pro improvement is next - and that will come including a new horse or two and continued development of the Oline along with JF1 in the new scheme and with regard to his style. The running backs are good. The TE elevated and while they could use help there a LOT of teams don't have a Kmet level TE. The WR room needs a little work but is serviceable with maybe one key addition. Special teams is good.
The point on the DL is important. The Bears were starting a defensive end that was playing QB a few years ago.
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dplank wrote: Wed Jan 11, 2023 8:27 pm
And yes, we fielded the worst roster in the NFL. How else do you explain having the worst record?
Man - we need to get you a logic book - yours is just off.

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Okay worst talent is extremely hard to define, but even with neutral luck we would have been bottom 5 in record, and we're the least invested roster (definitely in $, and I'd imagine in near bottom in drafted capital too).

Whatever you wanna call it, that's what the 2022 roster was.
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I'd like for anyone claiming we didn't have the worst roster in the NFL to walk me through a team that you see that had a worse roster than ours. I think this is all hyperbole. The starting basis for this conversation is that we do have the worst roster in the NFL because 1) basically every expert out there said this was the case before the season started and then 2) we went and validated their take by losing the most games in the NFL.

Again, this is not hard. Our 2022 roster SUCKED. But, we have a franchise QB and some really nice young talent that will certainly improve next year and beyond, so I'm not down on our situation or future outlook. But our roster that we fielded for the 2022 season was dreadful. Maybe you could have argued "bad but not worst" before the Quinn and Roquan moves - but certainly not after.

I still think many are conflating the 2022 roster with the 2023 outlook. They are different things.
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wab wrote: Thu Jan 12, 2023 11:00 am
IE wrote: Thu Jan 12, 2023 10:39 am Worst DL in the NFL does not equate to worst roster in the NFL. Everybody knows the defensive front is where Poles had to do a lot of draconian things, and as a result is the priority in the offseason.

But the roster is the entire roster. And it is NOT the worst in the NFL. The Bear defensive backfield is really good. The Oline, despite injuries and guys switching around, was ranked fairly decently for a good part of the season. Winning NFL teams generally have to run the ball well. Pass pro improvement is next - and that will come including a new horse or two and continued development of the Oline along with JF1 in the new scheme and with regard to his style. The running backs are good. The TE elevated and while they could use help there a LOT of teams don't have a Kmet level TE. The WR room needs a little work but is serviceable with maybe one key addition. Special teams is good.
The point on the DL is important. The Bears were starting a defensive end that was playing QB a few years ago.
Right. But somehow that doesn't represent a "teardown"? That take just absolutely baffles me. If trading away your best 3 players for future draft capital and instead choosing to play a former QB, rookie no less, as a starting DE isn't a teardown, nothing is.
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dplank wrote: Thu Jan 12, 2023 1:48 pm I'd like for anyone claiming we didn't have the worst roster in the NFL to walk me through a team that you see that had a worse roster than ours. I think this is all hyperbole. The starting basis for this conversation is that we do have the worst roster in the NFL because 1) basically every expert out there said this was the case before the season started and then 2) we went and validated their take by losing the most games in the NFL.

Again, this is not hard. Our 2022 roster SUCKED. But, we have a franchise QB and some really nice young talent that will certainly improve next year and beyond, so I'm not down on our situation or future outlook. But our roster that we fielded for the 2022 season was dreadful. Maybe you could have argued "bad but not worst" before the Quinn and Roquan moves - but certainly not after.

I still think many are conflating the 2022 roster with the 2023 outlook. They are different things.
A) There are major problems in Logic.

Based on your thinking - If 8 teams are tied with 3 Wins. Final week of the season - 7 teams win via last second Field Goal, 1 misses - that team now how a worse roster than the others?

B) We also kept putting people on IR - this just happened to correspond with something of a Tank (this wasn't all season)

But I love how HYPERBOLE is always posted and then people are like - But I do nuance !!!

No. You do not.
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I mean - You literally think 3 guys are potential All Pros to HOFers that were on the roster this year (Fields, Jenkins, Roquon) and you think there is no talent

Additionally I believe we led the league in Rookie snaps? Rookies do make mistakes but that doesn't mean they lack talent

I know Poles traded your boy but at least try and look at it objectively
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Oh look, jilted school girl obsession again trying to create a conflict that literally no one on the board wants us to have. Yawn. I’ll be the better man, per usual, and look the other way.
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IE wrote: Thu Jan 12, 2023 10:31 am
Ditka’s dictaphone wrote: Thu Jan 12, 2023 2:07 am It wasn’t a “tear down”, it was a “stealth tank”.

The art of tanking without “tanking”.

I’ve no idea how we absolutely gubbed the Patriots and then lost 10 straight. We were competitive for 3 quarters in most of those 10 and then fell apart in Q4 just enough to snatch defeat from the jaws of victory.
A post later in the season was titled "what happened?" because earlier in the season it did not look like the team was going to go on an epic losing streak. At some points early-mid season they were looking highly competitive and looking pretty unlucky. But then, an incremental subtraction through trades and IR that nearly ensured the team would (could) not win down the stretch. I was surprised by the "what happened" post because I thought it was clear that Poles was executing his plan and then as the season (and losing) went on he went into overdrive to get the most out of it.
That was me.

Quinn was having his typical "every other year" for the bad. At the time of the trade he had 1 sack for us.

Roquan was the one that hurt and I still maintain that was a colossal failure of epic proportions, but that shouldn't have caused us to give up roughly 30 points per game since Halloween.

Besides, according to some people here didn't we upgrade when Chuck "Sanborn" Norris showed up? So according to the Hive Mind of this board (except for me and Plank mainly), we upgraded didn't we?

So yeah I'd like to know. What happened?

30 points per game given up since Halloween with an HC with a DC background and his own handpicked DC.

It's not all "tank". Flus isn't some Messianic figure with a playcard. Some of this is on him.
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The Marshall Plan wrote: Thu Jan 12, 2023 3:30 pm
IE wrote: Thu Jan 12, 2023 10:31 am
A post later in the season was titled "what happened?" because earlier in the season it did not look like the team was going to go on an epic losing streak. At some points early-mid season they were looking highly competitive and looking pretty unlucky. But then, an incremental subtraction through trades and IR that nearly ensured the team would (could) not win down the stretch. I was surprised by the "what happened" post because I thought it was clear that Poles was executing his plan and then as the season (and losing) went on he went into overdrive to get the most out of it.
That was me.

Quinn was having his typical "every other year" for the bad. At the time of the trade he had 1 sack for us.

Roquan was the one that hurt and I still maintain that was a colossal failure of epic proportions, but that shouldn't have caused us to give up roughly 30 points per game since Halloween.

Besides, according to some people here didn't we upgrade when Chuck "Sanborn" Norris showed up? So according to the Hive Mind of this board (except for me and Plank mainly), we upgraded didn't we?

So yeah I'd like to know. What happened?

30 points per game given up since Halloween with an HC with a DC background and his own handpicked DC.

It's not all "tank". Flus isn't some Messianic figure with a playcard. Some of this is on him.
It was full tank, brother. I only need to surgically remove one wheel off of your truck to fuck up your trip. You're too smart to not understand that. Please don't post any pictures of 3 legged dogs.
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dplank wrote: Thu Jan 12, 2023 3:29 pm Oh look, jilted school girl obsession again trying to create a conflict that literally no one on the board wants us to have. Yawn. I’ll be the better man, per usual, and look the other way.
Its fine - you can't back up this nonsense anyway

So tell me my logic and facts are nice - But that Fan is short for Fanatic and that can be that as per usual.
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The Marshall Plan wrote: Thu Jan 12, 2023 3:30 pm Besides, according to some people here didn't we upgrade when Chuck "Sanborn" Norris showed up?
Chuck "Sanborn" Norris?

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Nah, J Sanborn!

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RichH55 wrote: Thu Jan 12, 2023 5:22 pm
dplank wrote: Thu Jan 12, 2023 3:29 pm Oh look, jilted school girl obsession again trying to create a conflict that literally no one on the board wants us to have. Yawn. I’ll be the better man, per usual, and look the other way.
Its fine - you can't back up this nonsense anyway

So tell me my logic and facts are nice - But that Fan is short for Fanatic and that can be that as per usual.

You guys both make good points all the time, but one of you has mighty thin skin and that makes it a one-sided match when your debate degenerates from an argument to a squabble to a pissing match faster than I can type.

Nobody's perfect, myself especially, but I'm hoping we can all try to not fly off the handle so quickly.
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IE wrote: Thu Jan 12, 2023 4:04 pm
The Marshall Plan wrote: Thu Jan 12, 2023 3:30 pm

That was me.

Quinn was having his typical "every other year" for the bad. At the time of the trade he had 1 sack for us.

Roquan was the one that hurt and I still maintain that was a colossal failure of epic proportions, but that shouldn't have caused us to give up roughly 30 points per game since Halloween.

Besides, according to some people here didn't we upgrade when Chuck "Sanborn" Norris showed up? So according to the Hive Mind of this board (except for me and Plank mainly), we upgraded didn't we?

So yeah I'd like to know. What happened?

30 points per game given up since Halloween with an HC with a DC background and his own handpicked DC.

It's not all "tank". Flus isn't some Messianic figure with a playcard. Some of this is on him.
It was full tank, brother. I only need to surgically remove one wheel off of your truck to fuck up your trip. You're too smart to not understand that. Please don't post any pictures of 3 legged dogs.
I'll make you a deal.

I'll retreat, give the benefit of the doubt to the Year 1 GM, but after the draft all bets are off.

Oh no. I will not be posting pictures of 3 legged dogs. Those commercials about the dogs with hard lives break me.
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HisRoyalSweetness wrote: Thu Jan 12, 2023 8:24 pm
The Marshall Plan wrote: Thu Jan 12, 2023 3:30 pm Besides, according to some people here didn't we upgrade when Chuck "Sanborn" Norris showed up?
Chuck "Sanborn" Norris?

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Nah, J Sanborn!

Image
I'm seriously surprised that G08 did not start a thread about Jack Sanborn Facts similar to the internet sensation with Chuck Norris.
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The Cooler King wrote: Thu Jan 12, 2023 12:12 pm Okay worst talent is extremely hard to define, but even with neutral luck we would have been bottom 5 in record, and we're the least invested roster (definitely in $, and I'd imagine in near bottom in drafted capital too).

Whatever you wanna call it, that's what the 2022 roster was.
Yeah I don't know if we had the overall worst roster in the NFL this year, but it sure was bad. Granted some guys look to have star potential in them but it's all potential. Outside of Fields and maybe Brisker, there is no one I'd bet on to be an elite player (top 5) at their position in the next few years. Doesn't mean everyone else is a talentless hack. We have guys that are/should become very good (Monty, Kmet, b. Jones, Jenkins (maybe), Mooney (maybe his injury worries me), Claypool (maybe), Johnson and Gordon). The problem is after those guys, many of the guys on this team are below average at best, right now.

I will say I don't think any team had an active roster on game day that was worse than what we rolled out week 18. Granted injuries were a huge factor there, but that was awful.
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I’ll throw a curveball here: I like Gordon better than Brisker. I’m not at all convinced on Brisker, primarily because of his size/style. I don’t know that he has an NFL body, Gordon certainly does.

I see Briskers injury risk as high and his ceiling as a little above average. I see Gordon’s ceiling as elite.
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Quick blurb from an Atlantic article this morning, touches on several discussion points
With Poles in charge, the Bears tanked the correct way. He stripped the roster — have you ever seen defensive captains traded in back-to-back weeks? — and the team still competed hard. Most weeks, anyway. Fields’ growth this season made him the biggest and most exciting story of 2022 in Chicago. It also led to Poles making what could be a sizable mistake. In the midst of a trade deadline fire sale, he shipped the Bears’ second-round pick to the Steelers for receiver Chase Claypool, an investment in Fields’ development. Thanks to injuries, Claypool, who is signed only through next season, and Fields barely connected on the field, and now the No. 32 pick is going to Pittsburgh. Hopefully, for Poles, it was a mistake he’ll learn from this offseason.
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Roquan Smith - 3 Solo Tackles in the Playoffs

Obviously thats a crazy impact player - so the only question is do they let him into the Hall early? or merely waive some of the waiting period?
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I'll give him a 'C' so far. We all know what he inherited roster and cap wise, he's made major positive corrective actions on both. He drafted potentially 4 starters at key positions (Jones, Gordon, Brisker, Gill) and picked up another as a FA (Sanborn). However, he didn't put JF in a position to demonstrate if he can truly be "the guy". He failed to find the guys for an adequate OL. I don't care if he had to keep on scrounging the available free agents, waiver wire, etc., he just didn't. He signed Patrick, who was a total washout. He failed to provide enough weapons for Fields to throw to except for the Claypool trade. Claypool also missed too many games with injuries and wasn't really incorporated into the offense so the jury is out on this trade. He moved Quinn and Roquan, who weren't going to be long-term pieces of the team.
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RichH55 wrote: Mon Jan 16, 2023 2:30 am Roquan Smith - 3 Solo Tackles in the Playoffs

Obviously thats a crazy impact player - so the only question is do they let him into the Hall early? or merely waive some of the waiting period?
And he also got 5 assists, so you know the Ravens gotta be happy about him. :deal:
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The Marshall Plan wrote: Fri Jan 13, 2023 4:11 am
IE wrote: Thu Jan 12, 2023 4:04 pm

It was full tank, brother. I only need to surgically remove one wheel off of your truck to fuck up your trip. You're too smart to not understand that. Please don't post any pictures of 3 legged dogs.
I'll make you a deal.

I'll retreat, give the benefit of the doubt to the Year 1 GM, but after the draft all bets are off.

Oh no. I will not be posting pictures of 3 legged dogs. Those commercials about the dogs with hard lives break me.
Dude I'm totally with you on future judgement. It is hard to tell at draft time for many players but if Poles botches it with the holy grail that I believe strongly he spent the entire second half of the past season working to obtain (the first pick), I'll shift substantially. If he picks Anderson first I might be mad. Not that I don't think Anderson is good but there are a lot of Edge and DTs who are HOFers that weren't picked first. I'd rather drop out of the top 5 and get more players and more value than one really good pass rusher. Poles has $130MM to spend on getting to the QB.

Same with JF1. I won't move too much if he has a few bad games early next year. But by mid-season and certainly by the end of the year he MUST establish himself as a consistent passing threat.

'23 is a defining year for Poles, Flus, Getsy and JF1.
Last edited by IE on Mon Jan 16, 2023 10:53 am, edited 1 time in total.
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RichH55 wrote: Mon Jan 16, 2023 2:30 am Roquan Smith - 3 Solo Tackles in the Playoffs

Obviously thats a crazy impact player - so the only question is do they let him into the Hall early? or merely waive some of the waiting period?
There was one play where Roquan whiffed hard on a blitz and Jones ran it for a nice gain and it felt like vintage Roquan. OH NO THE DISCOURSE I said to no one.

I dont actually care about the discourse at all, I'm happy that Roquan is happy, but dude plays like a heat-seeking missile and that sometimes means he writes checks his butt cant cash. And I get why that can infuriate some fans.
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RustinFields wrote: Mon Jan 16, 2023 10:47 am but dude plays like a heat-seeking missile and that sometimes means he writes checks his butt cant cash. And I get why that can infuriate some fans.
I see this in Brisker BTW...
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dplank wrote: Mon Jan 16, 2023 11:57 am
RustinFields wrote: Mon Jan 16, 2023 10:47 am but dude plays like a heat-seeking missile and that sometimes means he writes checks his butt cant cash. And I get why that can infuriate some fans.
I see this in Brisker BTW...
It could be worse, Jackson is a cool seeking missile...
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malk wrote: Mon Jan 16, 2023 6:12 pm
dplank wrote: Mon Jan 16, 2023 11:57 am

I see this in Brisker BTW...
It could be worse, Jackson is a cool seeking missile...
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IE wrote: Thu Jan 12, 2023 4:04 pm
The Marshall Plan wrote: Thu Jan 12, 2023 3:30 pm

That was me.

Quinn was having his typical "every other year" for the bad. At the time of the trade he had 1 sack for us.

Roquan was the one that hurt and I still maintain that was a colossal failure of epic proportions, but that shouldn't have caused us to give up roughly 30 points per game since Halloween.

Besides, according to some people here didn't we upgrade when Chuck "Sanborn" Norris showed up? So according to the Hive Mind of this board (except for me and Plank mainly), we upgraded didn't we?

So yeah I'd like to know. What happened?

30 points per game given up since Halloween with an HC with a DC background and his own handpicked DC.

It's not all "tank". Flus isn't some Messianic figure with a playcard. Some of this is on him.
It was full tank, brother. I only need to surgically remove one wheel off of your truck to fuck up your trip. You're too smart to not understand that. Please don't post any pictures of 3 legged dogs.
I 100% agree, and I absolutely believe it got into full swing right after the Dolphins and Lions game. Fields ripped up both defenses for record rushing yards, and he got pulled aside and told, "that's not what we're trying to do this year kid. Slow your roll."
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Bears Whiskey Nut wrote: Tue Jan 17, 2023 5:10 pm
IE wrote: Thu Jan 12, 2023 4:04 pm

It was full tank, brother. I only need to surgically remove one wheel off of your truck to fuck up your trip. You're too smart to not understand that. Please don't post any pictures of 3 legged dogs.
I 100% agree, and I absolutely believe it got into full swing right after the Dolphins and Lions game. Fields ripped up both defenses for record rushing yards, and he got pulled aside and told, "that's not what we're trying to do this year kid. Slow your roll."
I don't believe JF1 was in on it though. I do think he understood what was going on even though it wouldn't be something they'd discuss with him. He wouldn't play badly and look bad on purpose - and they wouldn't ask him to. I think he just did what they called. And when he had a chance, he try to score and execute the offense.

And I think it was obvious and almost laughable the way so many guys went on IR either temporary or permanently and to me it looks like Poles was kneecapping the team. I also do believe that Flus AND Getsy want to build a winner and walked a fine line between sustaining their new culture and finessing it just enough to not win. I think they were trying hard against the Packers and Eagles but just didn't care too much about winning at the end.

I'm pretty sure something like tanking is not openly discussed and rather coaching was focused on game preparation with the context of development, learning and working on the system and valuing behaviors and culture stuff while making sure the team knows they're not being judged as players by W/L but by their individual behaviors and play as part of the system & team. That's why the young nobody DBs were playing their hearts out all the way to the end. Really good coaching.
2023 Chicago Bears... emerging from a long hibernation, and hungry!
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