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Mikefive
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In my view, we should invest HEAVILY in a WLB.

We have Sanborn at MLB (although I've seen people say he played WLB for us, but I think that's false). And he's dirt cheap for years. So our budget should allow us to make a strong investment at WLB. SLB, I don't really care about, since we rarely use one.

I'm just not sure who to go after, but we need a guy with speed to track down RBs in the pass game and perhaps blitz. I've heard Leighton Vander Esch mentioned for us, but he plays Sanborn's spot. Tremaine Edmunds is more enticing with his athletic profile, but he's also been playing MLB and will be expensive. Would've been fun to see Roquan next to Sanborn in that role. At this point, I'm not so enthused about meh guys like Matt Adams and Joe Thomas.

Seems like you should be able to get a quality, athletic guy for that role either in FA or the draft, although Sanborn is so young that an experienced FA seems a better fit. We are very likely to beef up the DL, so adding another quality player behind them should be a compounded positive.

Thoughts? Who would your target be?
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Mikefive wrote: Wed Jan 18, 2023 12:20 pm In my view, we should invest HEAVILY in a WLB.

We have Sanborn at MLB (although I've seen people say he played WLB for us, but I think that's false). And he's dirt cheap for years. So our budget should allow us to make a strong investment at WLB. SLB, I don't really care about, since we rarely use one.

I'm just not sure who to go after, but we need a guy with speed to track down RBs in the pass game and perhaps blitz. I've heard Leighton Vander Esch mentioned for us, but he plays Sanborn's spot. Tremaine Edmunds is more enticing with his athletic profile, but he's also been playing MLB and will be expensive. Would've been fun to see Roquan next to Sanborn in that role. At this point, I'm not so enthused about meh guys like Matt Adams and Joe Thomas.

Seems like you should be able to get a quality, athletic guy for that role either in FA or the draft, although Sanborn is so young that an experienced FA seems a better fit. We are very likely to beef up the DL, so adding another quality player behind them should be a compounded positive.

Thoughts? Who would your target be?
I'd call the Cardinals and see what it would take to get Isaiah Simmons from them. They haven't seemed to figure out how to use him - although a new AZ staff might put him to better use.
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WLB is one of those positions I really don't believe in paying ($) for.


Pass and draft for me.
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If only we had a great one on the roster like three months ago or so…..

If Poles signs a Will for big money he should be fired. He had a future HOF’er already on the roster.
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Moriarty wrote: Wed Jan 18, 2023 1:10 pm WLB is one of those positions I really don't believe in paying ($) for.


Pass and draft for me.
"They" (Poles and Co) clearly don't believe in it either. But if a given relatively proven player falls within Poles' model for what he's trying to do, it wouldn't bother me.

What do you think about Morrow coming back at Will for a reasonable price? I liked him OK. He's like another SS out there but I don't consider him a liability. He might be quite good behind a formidable DL.
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IE wrote: Wed Jan 18, 2023 1:28 pm
Moriarty wrote: Wed Jan 18, 2023 1:10 pm WLB is one of those positions I really don't believe in paying ($) for.


Pass and draft for me.
"They" (Poles and Co) clearly don't believe in it either. But if a given relatively proven player falls within Poles' model for what he's trying to do, it wouldn't bother me.

What do you think about Morrow coming back at Will for a reasonable price? I liked him OK. He's like another SS out there but I don't consider him a liability. He might be quite good behind a formidable DL.
I don't think he has the length they want, but I wouldn't be too disappointed. He's just awfully small.
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Agreed, if it was that important why let Smith go.

Also, Sanborn, along with other linebackers around the league, proves that you can find very good off ball linebackers later and cheaper.
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I'd rather draft one. Off-ball LBs are fairly plentiful in the 3rd round range - like DeMarvion Overshown from Texas. Probably could be had in the 3rd/4th round.
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Tremaine Edmunds has the size and speed. Is he the type of guy they want? Is he worth $15M + per year as a free agent?
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If Poles pays Edmunds I’ll lose my mind….
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Roquan wasn't the guy. I don't care about All Pro's, guy just didn't cause turnovers or change games enough. Baltimore paid him the first ever 20m a year deal for an off the ball linebacker. It's a move I'll never support. The guy just wasn't consistent, that stayed true in Baltimore.

DeMarvion Overshown is a name we should get familiar with. He's a guy that screams intangibles and skillset they want for the position.
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IE wrote: Wed Jan 18, 2023 1:28 pm
Moriarty wrote: Wed Jan 18, 2023 1:10 pm WLB is one of those positions I really don't believe in paying ($) for.


Pass and draft for me.
"They" (Poles and Co) clearly don't believe in it either. But if a given relatively proven player falls within Poles' model for what he's trying to do, it wouldn't bother me.

What do you think about Morrow coming back at Will for a reasonable price? I liked him OK. He's like another SS out there but I don't consider him a liability. He might be quite good behind a formidable DL.
I give Morrow a firm "eh".
I definitely would not give him a large raise or anything besides trivial guaranteed money, locking him in in any way.
If they wanted to bring him back for 1 more year, for leadership & depth at 2-5M, maybe.
But if he goes, I also won't give it a second thought.

I definitely want a rookie upgrade this year or next. If nothing else, Morrow doesn't generate INTs or FFs, either.
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cars wrote: Wed Jan 18, 2023 3:04 pm DeMarvion Overshown is a name we should get familiar with. He's a guy that screams intangibles and skillset they want for the position.
Well, the Bears will have linebackers coach Dave Borgonzi coaching at the Senior Bowl.
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It's a possibility.

I think even with other needs in the trenches they can splurge a little at either CB or Will. Whichever you don't splurge on is vet flyers and mud rounders.
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Can't remember if I posted it in thr Roquan Smith thread or not, but the market is valuing offball LB as valuable as they have since the late 90s (measured in relation to the total cap).

Basically the adjusted biggest contracts are Seau and Lewis and then a handful of contracts signed in past few years.

Kind of interesting. A trend or a blip?
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I'm guessing the Bears will draft a WLB. Darius/Shaq Leonard was a 3rd round pick. Lance Briggs was a third round pick. Both flourished in this scheme. Leonard was, arguably, a better LB in his first few years than Roquan.

This seems to be a key position in Eberflus' defense, but the kind of player he requires can seemingly be found after the 1st round
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The Cooler King wrote: Wed Jan 18, 2023 5:46 pm Can't remember if I posted it in thr Roquan Smith thread or not, but the market is valuing offball LB as valuable as they have since the late 90s (measured in relation to the total cap).

Basically the adjusted biggest contracts are Seau and Lewis and then a handful of contracts signed in past few years.

Kind of interesting. A trend or a blip?
Doesn't really matter if it's trend or blip at the moment, because it's here for this year's market, and the Bears need at least a couple more warm bodies at the position before the draft. If there's someone that Eberflus covets, I'm up for spending a bit at the position, but I think it will be relatively more now than a few years ago.
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Middleguard wrote: Wed Jan 18, 2023 5:58 pm
The Cooler King wrote: Wed Jan 18, 2023 5:46 pm Can't remember if I posted it in thr Roquan Smith thread or not, but the market is valuing offball LB as valuable as they have since the late 90s (measured in relation to the total cap).

Basically the adjusted biggest contracts are Seau and Lewis and then a handful of contracts signed in past few years.

Kind of interesting. A trend or a blip?
Doesn't really matter if it's trend or blip at the moment, because it's here for this year's market, and the Bears need at least a couple more warm bodies at the position before the draft. If there's someone that Eberflus covets, I'm up for spending a bit at the position, but I think it will be relatively more now than a few years ago.
But these are top of market numbers. If it's a blip, then that matters.

If it's a top to bottom or market blip/trend than yea it matters less, but they can still participate in different products ve points of market if you feel your internal values are different.

Edit - or just based on market size, bigger deals are normally longer commitments too. Hence, blip verse long term trend matters.
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I would LOVE Vander Esch as our new Hunter Hillmeyer ! Dallas will not resign him. They have a ton of money in LB's . He would be a GREAT fit here!
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Eriebear wrote: Wed Jan 18, 2023 6:44 pm I would LOVE Vander Esch as our new Hunter Hillmeyer ! Dallas will not resign him. They have a ton of money in LB's . He would be a GREAT fit here!
Just as far as positions go, Huter was a Sam, which is like a 20% snap role in a modern D.
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Moriarty wrote: Wed Jan 18, 2023 1:10 pm WLB is one of those positions I really don't believe in paying ($) for.


Pass and draft for me.
I think Sanborn can play either the Will or Mike. I expect us to draft a LBand depending on trade downs and how the board shakes out I like Henry To’o To’o, Drew sanders or Jack Campbell. The first might be a bit pricey for what they want to spend on a LB unless they trade back and get more picks so that it’s not a “luxury”
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artbest01 wrote: Wed Jan 18, 2023 5:56 pm I'm guessing the Bears will draft a WLB. Darius/Shaq Leonard was a 3rd round pick. Lance Briggs was a third round pick. Both flourished in this scheme. Leonard was, arguably, a better LB in his first few years than Roquan.

This seems to be a key position in Eberflus' defense, but the kind of player he requires can seemingly be found after the 1st round
"Leonard was, arguably, a better LB in his first few years than Roquan. "

Feel like the word is inarguably here
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RichH55 wrote: Thu Jan 19, 2023 10:05 am
artbest01 wrote: Wed Jan 18, 2023 5:56 pm I'm guessing the Bears will draft a WLB. Darius/Shaq Leonard was a 3rd round pick. Lance Briggs was a third round pick. Both flourished in this scheme. Leonard was, arguably, a better LB in his first few years than Roquan.

This seems to be a key position in Eberflus' defense, but the kind of player he requires can seemingly be found after the 1st round
"Leonard was, arguably, a better LB in his first few years than Roquan. "

Feel like the word is inarguably here
I think one could argue either way about this choice of adjectives.
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pus wrote: Thu Jan 19, 2023 10:12 am
RichH55 wrote: Thu Jan 19, 2023 10:05 am

"Leonard was, arguably, a better LB in his first few years than Roquan. "

Feel like the word is inarguably here
I think one could argue either way about this choice of adjectives.
Yes - but one would be wrong;)
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pus wrote: Thu Jan 19, 2023 10:12 am
RichH55 wrote: Thu Jan 19, 2023 10:05 am

"Leonard was, arguably, a better LB in his first few years than Roquan. "

Feel like the word is inarguably here
I think one could argue either way about this choice of adjectives.
It's arguably.

"Leonard was, inarguably, a better LB in his first few years than Hunter Hillenmeyer." Meaning that is pretty certain / not open to logical debate.

"Leonard war, arguably, a better LB in his first few years than Roquan Smith." Meaning there is lots of sound argument to support that position but it is not certain.

At least that's my take on it. I think Leonard was better his first few years than Roquan, but Roquan has arguments in his favor - more solo tackles, more assist and heck even more sacks. Since Roquan has arguments in his favor the proper choice is "arguably," IMO.
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Arkansasbear wrote: Thu Jan 19, 2023 10:55 am
pus wrote: Thu Jan 19, 2023 10:12 am

I think one could argue either way about this choice of adjectives.
It's arguably.

"Leonard was, inarguably, a better LB in his first few years than Hunter Hillenmeyer." Meaning that is pretty certain / not open to logical debate.

"Leonard war, arguably, a better LB in his first few years than Roquan Smith." Meaning there is lots of sound argument to support that position but it is not certain.

At least that's my take on it. I think Leonard was better his first few years than Roquan, but Roquan has arguments in his favor - more solo tackles, more assist and heck even more sacks. Since Roquan has arguments in his favor the proper choice is "arguably," IMO.
There are people - not many- who would argue (probably for the sake of argument) that Hunter was better. They would be ultra-wrong.

The first few years of their careers - Leonard was just better than Roquon.

This doesn't make Roquon a bum - or terrible - or anything like that.

But yes Leonard was better. He also has a serious injury now - so Roquon might have the better career just on availablity. But first few seasons? Its a clear distinction
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RichH55 wrote: Thu Jan 19, 2023 11:10 am
Arkansasbear wrote: Thu Jan 19, 2023 10:55 am

It's arguably.

"Leonard was, inarguably, a better LB in his first few years than Hunter Hillenmeyer." Meaning that is pretty certain / not open to logical debate.

"Leonard war, arguably, a better LB in his first few years than Roquan Smith." Meaning there is lots of sound argument to support that position but it is not certain.

At least that's my take on it. I think Leonard was better his first few years than Roquan, but Roquan has arguments in his favor - more solo tackles, more assist and heck even more sacks. Since Roquan has arguments in his favor the proper choice is "arguably," IMO.
There are people - not many- who would argue (probably for the sake of argument) that Hunter was better. They would be ultra-wrong.

The first few years of their careers - Leonard was just better than Roquon.

This doesn't make Roquon a bum - or terrible - or anything like that.

But yes Leonard was better. He also has a serious injury now - so Roquon might have the better career just on availablity. But first few seasons? Its a clear distinction
Hillenmeyer's first three year in the NFL he had I Int, 4 passes defended, 160 tackles (119 solo, 41 assist, 13 TFL). There is no basis to give an argument he was better than Leonard other that just to argue for argument sake. So the proper word choice is inarguably.

Roquan has far more tackles and has more sacks in the same time period as Leonard. Leonard has more "impact plays." They played in different systems that had them have different responsibilities. So a person who argues Roquan was the better LB has valid arguments (I don't agree with their arguments, but they are still valid arguments that I can see why someone would argue he was better). It's debatable, both sides have valid points. So the proper word is "arguably."

No if you don't think there are valid arguments that someone could use to show Roquan was the better player, that's simply your take. I just think that's a very narrow minded approach to take.
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Oh the case for Hunter is beyond weak - essentially non-existent. But if the word only means someone would argue it - then no

"Roquan has far more tackles and has more sacks in the same time period as Leonard"

You might want to recheck those Tackle numbers - And Sack Numbers. All via Football Reference But 2018-2021 - ie the First few years of their careers

Leonard seems to also have more Tackles and Sacks.

https://www.pro-football-reference.com/ ... onDa00.htm
https://www.pro-football-reference.com/ ... itRo07.htm

I Could 15 Sacks and 538 Tackles for Leonard 14 Sacks and 524 Tackles for Smith.

And that isn't even counting the Turnovers or All Pro votes.
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RichH55 wrote: Thu Jan 19, 2023 12:31 pm Oh the case for Hunter is beyond weak - essentially non-existent. But if the word only means someone would argue it - then no

"Roquan has far more tackles and has more sacks in the same time period as Leonard"

You might want to recheck those Tackle numbers - And Sack Numbers. All via Football Reference But 2018-2021 - ie the First few years of their careers

Leonard seems to also have more Tackles and Sacks.

https://www.pro-football-reference.com/ ... onDa00.htm
https://www.pro-football-reference.com/ ... itRo07.htm

I Could 15 Sacks and 538 Tackles for Leonard 14 Sacks and 524 Tackles for Smith.

And that isn't even counting the Turnovers or All Pro votes.
This appears to once again being turned into an argument for argument sake. Yeah I just looked at their career totals and added in 2022 (even so, Roquan had more tackles - total and sole - and 1.5 more sacks). If you are saying inarguable can only be used if no one would argue the point, then the word cannot be used. Several here have proven time and and time again they will argue even if they don't have a points to somewhat support their position. So, I guess we need to simply remove it from our vocabulary.

If you think under no circumstances can anyone give a valid argument to support the stance that Roquan was better, use inarguably. I disagree. i think they can point to valid factors that support their stance. I disagree with them, but they have a defensible stance. Unlike trying to stay Hillenmeyer was better. There is simply nothing to point at that has merit for that position.

With that, I will not be traveling down this rabbit hole anymore.

https://www.espn.com/nfl/player/stats/_ ... quan-smith

https://www.espn.com/nfl/player/stats/_ ... le-leonard
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