Braxton Jones vs Orlando Brown Jr

[wab]

[Yogi da Bear]

Or just plain better...period.

[dplank]

Lmao

[G08]

Ahhh you beat me to it!

I'm a broken record here: If Braxton Jones can get stronger in his lower body/core, I think he'll be much improved this season.


Which begs the question: Why are we pushing for a high draft pick to play RT when Poles and friends found someone like Jones in round 5?

For the OL, find me a hardworking, intelligent athlete who hits your desired metrics and coach him up.

[thunderspirit]

Ahhh you beat me to it!

I'm a broken record here: If Braxton Jones can get stronger in his lower body/core, I think he'll be much improved this season.


Which begs the question: Why are we pushing for a high draft pick to play RT when Poles and friends found someone like Jones in round 5?

For the OL, find me a hardworking, intelligent athlete who hits your desired metrics and coach him up.

For what it's worth: finding a starter at tackle in later rounds is still the exception, not the rule. Most (not all) come from the top three rounds of the draft.

[G08]

Ahhh you beat me to it!

I'm a broken record here: If Braxton Jones can get stronger in his lower body/core, I think he'll be much improved this season.


Which begs the question: Why are we pushing for a high draft pick to play RT when Poles and friends found someone like Jones in round 5?

For the OL, find me a hardworking, intelligent athlete who hits your desired metrics and coach him up.

For what it's worth: finding a starter at tackle in later rounds is still the exception, not the rule. Most (not all) come from the top three rounds of the draft.

Very true, but he is 1 for 1 thus far.

[dplank]

For what it's worth: finding a starter at tackle in later rounds is still the exception, not the rule. Most (not all) come from the top three rounds of the draft.

Very true, but he is 1 for 1 thus far.

No he's not. He drafted 4 OL last year, he's 1 for 4. And before we crown his ass, remember Larry Borom who everyone had similar love for last year and regressed. He also whiffed on his FA signings. I'm seeing a new apologism trend on this board - Poles Apologists. He can do no wrong!

[IE]

Even if we view PFF's take on the two as not really reflecting reality (there are implications to that - are they credible, or not - and why), there is still a good case ot be made for Brax.

We do have to attribute *some* meaning to PFF's grades... they're generally accepted for player benchmarking. But then IF you apply their relative costs AND look at where they are on their development curve, their long-term utility as a rationale to invest their time in one spot and their potential upside, I'd grade Brax Jones as a more valuable asset than Orlando Bloom Jones right now.

We might want to consider that OBJ has already sort of proved he is NOT necessarily the top-performing long term fixture on the left that Brax Jones still could very well be. OBJ has proved to both the Raven and the Chief that he's not that guy. Of course he IS a very good OT and commands & is worthy of big bucks. But it seems the league considers him a RT. He's struggling with that, and has for a long time. But he'll come around to it.

If the Bears can get him at RT for $17-18MM that would seem to be a bargain and a material upgrade. It would also clear the draft day path to focus on defense.

But ONLY at right tackle - no way would I take a guy who already proved he's a RT on two good teams and pay him a ton of money to disrupt the growth of an ascending LT! That would be... nuts.

[wab]

Very true, but he is 1 for 1 thus far.

No he's not. He drafted 4 OL last year, he's 1 for 4. And before we crown his ass, remember Larry Borom who everyone had similar love for last year and regressed. He also whiffed on his FA signings. I'm seeing a new apologism trend on this board - Poles Apologists. He can do no wrong!

He only “does wrong” when he doesn’t do something you
have your heart set on.

No one loves that the Bears haven’t signed a RT but he hasn’t. So the board is drawing logical conclusions as to why he hasn’t (cost/fit/age) and trying to deduce how he will handle it.

I certainly am not thrilled with how FA has transpired, but I can at least understand why it’s gone this way.

[thunderspirit]

No he's not. He drafted 4 OL last year, he's 1 for 4. And before we crown his ass, remember Larry Borom who everyone had similar love for last year and regressed. He also whiffed on his FA signings. I'm seeing a new apologism trend on this board - Poles Apologists. He can do no wrong!

He only “does wrong” when he doesn’t do something you
have your heart set on.

No one loves that the Bears haven’t signed a RT but he hasn’t. So the board is drawing logical conclusions as to why he hasn’t (cost/fit/age) and trying to deduce how he will handle it.

I certainly am not thrilled with how FA has transpired, but I can at least understand why it’s gone this way.

Pretty much. (Though I'm less unhappy about RT than some.)

If someone want to call it rationalization and/or apologism, that's their prerogative.

[IE]

Very true, but he is 1 for 1 thus far.

No he's not. He drafted 4 OL last year, he's 1 for 4. And before we crown his ass, remember Larry Borom who everyone had similar love for last year and regressed. He also whiffed on his FA signings. I'm seeing a new apologism trend on this board - Poles Apologists. He can do no wrong!

Conflating the Jones pick with the other later development ones and small attempts to improve team depth is completely and horribly unfair.

Make fun all you want of other people appreciating the regime's ability to find a legit LT in the 5th round when everyone else missed him. That's a real success story, and the later picks and flyers on guys like Leatherwood and what's his name from Minnesota do not remotely color that.

This continuing "Poles Stan" characterization is 3rd grade playground stuff. Nobody is at where you claim them to be at, Plank. People just like what they like and better (than you) tolerate the stuff they don't due to context.

[IE]

I certainly am not thrilled with how FA has transpired, but I can at least understand why it’s gone this way.

"understanding" vs "liking/loving" is a concept that many struggle with.

[G08]

Very true, but he is 1 for 1 thus far.

No he's not. He drafted 4 OL last year, he's 1 for 4. And before we crown his ass, remember Larry Borom who everyone had similar love for last year and regressed. He also whiffed on his FA signings. I'm seeing a new apologism trend on this board - Poles Apologists. He can do no wrong!

I’m liking Poles right now

[Yogi da Bear]

Very true, but he is 1 for 1 thus far.

No he's not. He drafted 4 OL last year, he's 1 for 4. And before we crown his ass, remember Larry Borom who everyone had similar love for last year and regressed. He also whiffed on his FA signings. I'm seeing a new apologism trend on this board - Poles Apologists. He can do no wrong!

A little unfair as to the draft picks: Kramer got hurt and missed the entire year; Thomas was poached off our practice squad by the Rams and is still on their roster; Carter has flashed and might be a factor going forward. I would say he has one tremendous success story and three with the jury still out.

[dplank]

No he's not. He drafted 4 OL last year, he's 1 for 4. And before we crown his ass, remember Larry Borom who everyone had similar love for last year and regressed. He also whiffed on his FA signings. I'm seeing a new apologism trend on this board - Poles Apologists. He can do no wrong!

I’m liking Poles right now

That's right! I can actually like some things he does and dislike others! Crazy concept that doesn't seem to translate on places like this where you have to be all or nothing. At the point I made that comment, I was liking what he was doing and expecting that to be the start, not the finish of his starter grade acquisitions. As things wore on and I realized that didn't look like it was happening, I soured on it. That's actually sane, normal behavior. It means I'm commenting on the actual moves and not beholden to either defending or tearing down Poles - I call what I see. What's not normal is praising everything Poles does as if he's incapable of making a mistake.

Also, I think I'm a lot younger than you think I am.

[G08]

That's right! I can actually like some things he does and dislike others! Crazy concept that doesn't seem to translate on places like this where you have to be all or nothing. At the point I made that comment, I was liking what he was doing and expecting that to be the start, not the finish of his starter grade acquisitions. As things wore on and I realized that didn't look like it was happening, I soured on it. That's actually sane, normal behavior. It means I'm commenting on the actual moves and not beholden to either defending or tearing down Poles - I call what I see. What's not normal is praising everything Poles does as if he's incapable of making a mistake.

Also, I think I'm a lot younger than you think I am.

Was just a joke bud

[wab]

Was just a joke bud

[TheWorldBreaker]

1-4 seems like you’re just trying to hate. If a guy you’re hiding on the practice squad is poached to another team’s roster and stays there that’s not a miss. If a guy makes you’re roster as a backup that’s not a miss. If a guy goes on IR before he plays, that’s not a miss yet.

Come on dude, expecting late round draft picks to come in and immediately start is a ridiculous standard.

Anyway, if the reports about the league and Poles viewing Brown as a RT I don’t think the comparison matters. I’m hopeful that when the Brown realizes the market and the Bears cap situation he decides getting or beating the McGlinchey deal is the best he can do and agree to be the RT for the Bears.

[wab]

Brown looking like he might have to take a 1yr deal as a RT and try to cash in next year as a LT.

[IE]

Also, I think I'm a lot younger than you think I am.

Paraphrasing... "You may think I'm old, unreasonable and verging on senile - but I'm not nearly as old as you think I am."

[Moriarty]

Brown looking like he might have to take a 1yr deal as a RT and try to cash in next year as a LT.

Ok, I'll bite


What's TE Mike Gesicki so defensive about?

[karhu]

Very true, but he is 1 for 1 thus far.

No he's not. He drafted 4 OL last year, he's 1 for 4.

Tackle. The position under discussion was tackle. Poles took one, along with two developmental guards and a center. The one tackle he picked, hit.

[The Cooler King]

The topline PFF grade is such a huge grain of salt. If we take all their ratings at face value, Brown is much better as a pass blocker as well and in true pass sets is significantly better.

The logical conclusion of that set of grades is Jones was just helped a lot more. Brown was probably left on islands Getsy wouldn't have dreamed of leaving Jones on. Imagine Kelce having to chip or stay in totally because a Braxton Jones cant be left on an island.

Brown is far from perfect and there's especially run scheme questions.

But these "one number grade from PFF" comparisons just don't scratch surface of actual issues at hand.

[IE]

The topline PFF grade is such a huge grain of salt. If we take all their ratings at face value, Brown is much better as a pass blocker as well and in true pass sets is significantly better.

The logical conclusion of that set of grades is Jones was just helped a lot more. Brown was probably left on islands Getsy wouldn't have dreamed of leaving Jones on. Imagine Kelce having to chip or stay in totally because a Braxton Jones cant be left on an island.

Brown is far from perfect and there's especially run scheme questions.

But these "one number grade from PFF" comparisons just don't scratch surface of actual issues at hand.

I really don't know PFF's methodology, and may be learning something here. Your point would confirm that not all BJs are the same. If they're totally abstracting things like blocking help yes you're right that would be misleading. I'd love to see the breakdown at lower levels, situationally.

I still assert that other factors raise Brax Jones and lower Bloom Jones. Not the least of which is two good teams have concluded the latter is not a LT while the arrow is pointing up on the junior one more than the Junior one.

[The Cooler King]

The topline PFF grade is such a huge grain of salt. If we take all their ratings at face value, Brown is much better as a pass blocker as well and in true pass sets is significantly better.

The logical conclusion of that set of grades is Jones was just helped a lot more. Brown was probably left on islands Getsy wouldn't have dreamed of leaving Jones on. Imagine Kelce having to chip or stay in totally because a Braxton Jones cant be left on an island.

Brown is far from perfect and there's especially run scheme questions.

But these "one number grade from PFF" comparisons just don't scratch surface of actual issues at hand.

I really don't know PFF's methodology, and may be learning something here. Your point would confirm that not all BJs are the same. If they're totally abstracting things like blocking help yes you're right that would be misleading. I'd love to see the breakdown at lower levels, situationally.

I still assert that other factors raise Brax Jones and lower Bloom Jones. Not the least of which is two good teams have concluded the latter is not a LT while the arrow is pointing up on the junior one more than the Junior one.

I mean I can't claim knowledge about PFFs methods. I know all their grading goes through some sort of algorithm.

In implementing a grade scale, there's always pros and cons to your two options
1. Grade a person on how well they completed their assignment
2. Grade people based on a combination of how they completed the assignment and how difficult it was

Based on what I can tell I think they lean more towards one. It's an editorial choice. At the end of the day that top line number is kind of a marketing number. Throw out this single number and get people interested in details behind a pay wall. That's how I view it.

Just their charting of plays is really useful though. And I like their fantasy football content. So I'm gonna be the goober who pays and I'll share what I can of the behind the pay wall stuff when I can.

[wab]

He’s pretty clear in the tweet that:
1 - it’s just one data point
And
2 - it’s reasonable of the Bears to stick with Jones because he’s performing and exponentially cheaper.

[karhu]

The topline PFF grade is such a huge grain of salt. If we take all their ratings at face value, Brown is much better as a pass blocker as well and in true pass sets is significantly better.

The logical conclusion of that set of grades is Jones was just helped a lot more. Brown was probably left on islands Getsy wouldn't have dreamed of leaving Jones on. Imagine Kelce having to chip or stay in totally because a Braxton Jones cant be left on an island.

Brown is far from perfect and there's especially run scheme questions.

But these "one number grade from PFF" comparisons just don't scratch surface of actual issues at hand.

I really don't know PFF's methodology, and may be learning something here. Your point would confirm that not all BJs are the same.

Story checks out. I mean, there are more fun ways to learn that sort of thing, but some of them are painful, too.

[HurricaneBear]

Who cares who is better, there is room for both! Convince Brown to flip to the right if you dont want to move Jones.

Jones/Davis/John Michael Schmitz(or equivalent)/Jenkins/Brown.

I'd be OK with that....

....and yes i'd still draft Paris Johnson or Broderick Jones at 9

[Bears Whiskey Nut]

This draft is DEEP with potential mid round RT’s. Poles might take 2-3 OL in rounds 2-4. We could easily find a RT in that group. Right now JONES is rounding out into a quality LT. you don’t dump him, take on 10x the contract, only to get marginally better at the position.

[Yogi da Bear]

The topline PFF grade is such a huge grain of salt. If we take all their ratings at face value, Brown is much better as a pass blocker as well and in true pass sets is significantly better.

The logical conclusion of that set of grades is Jones was just helped a lot more. Brown was probably left on islands Getsy wouldn't have dreamed of leaving Jones on. Imagine Kelce having to chip or stay in totally because a Braxton Jones cant be left on an island.

Brown is far from perfect and there's especially run scheme questions.

But these "one number grade from PFF" comparisons just don't scratch surface of actual issues at hand.

I hate PFF grades. Hate them. Think they're crap.

But I did want to bring up one thing on this. I believe that Jones was helped far more by Fields than anything else. How many times did you see Fields escape out to his left? Seems to me it was a lot. In a sense, Jones' weakness corelated with Fields' strength, while Jones' strength helped protect Fields. With Jones, not many are getting around him, so Fields wasn't subjected to many unobstructed blind side hits--the QB killers. In fact, I can't think of any. What Jones was weak at were bullrushes. With those though, Jones still kept his body between Fields and the rusher, allowing Fields to see what was happening and escape to his left, around the occupied rusher. In the Lions game, we saw what would happen if Fields couldn't move--he was sacked as Jones was bullrushed into him. I think that was the only time I saw that happen.

Fields' real problem with bull rushes were when they came up the middle. When they came from the side, Fields could escape as the bull rushers were losing contain.

Just a thought I'd mention as I don't believe it has been discussed before.