In reading everything Poles has been saying since the trade, it is appears (at least to me), that he had 7 blue chipper in this year's draft. So I've done my best to view all the players through Pole's eyes and who I think he would put on that list. I came up with:
1. Will Anderson
2. Jalen Carter (if not he has done a great smoke screen to make everyone think he is)
3. Myles Murphy
4. Tyree Wilson
5. Joey Porter
6. C.J. Stroud
7. Bryce Young
The 2 QBs are the ones I am the least certain of. Assuming that's the list, I think Porter is the one most likely to be there at 9 and he could send Bears' Nation over the cliff by picking him. But he won't care, he will stick to his board and his long term plan.
Poles 7 "blue chippers"
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Joey Porter? Is he rated that high among consensus draft boards? I'm probably biased doing all my mocks on PFF, but they have him 16 and the 3rd CB. And none of the top 3 CB on their board are size/athletic outliers.Arkansasbear wrote: ↑Wed Mar 22, 2023 9:38 am In reading everything Poles has been saying since the trade, it is appears (at least to me), that he had 7 blue chipper in this year's draft. So I've done my best to view all the players through Pole's eyes and who I think he would put on that list. I came up with:
1. Will Anderson
2. Jalen Carter (if not he has done a great smoke screen to make everyone think he is)
3. Myles Murphy
4. Tyree Wilson
5. Joey Porter
6. C.J. Stroud
7. Bryce Young
The 2 QBs are the ones I am the least certain of. Assuming that's the list, I think Porter is the one most likely to be there at 9 and he could send Bears' Nation over the cliff by picking him. But he won't care, he will stick to his board and his long term plan.
Of course each board us gonna vary a bit...
I do feel like he probably has those 2/QBs though, and not the other two. So yea, prob 5 position guys and tbd if Carter has dropped.
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Trying to look at through his eyes. He has the size and length they like. So of all the CBs he's the one I could see making his list. It came down to him and Paris Johnson (assuming the 2 QBs make the list).The Cooler King wrote: ↑Wed Mar 22, 2023 10:39 amJoey Porter? Is he rated that high among consensus draft boards? I'm probably biased doing all my mocks on PFF, but they have him 16 and the 3rd CB. And none of the top 3 CB on their board are size/athletic outliers.Arkansasbear wrote: ↑Wed Mar 22, 2023 9:38 am In reading everything Poles has been saying since the trade, it is appears (at least to me), that he had 7 blue chipper in this year's draft. So I've done my best to view all the players through Pole's eyes and who I think he would put on that list. I came up with:
1. Will Anderson
2. Jalen Carter (if not he has done a great smoke screen to make everyone think he is)
3. Myles Murphy
4. Tyree Wilson
5. Joey Porter
6. C.J. Stroud
7. Bryce Young
The 2 QBs are the ones I am the least certain of. Assuming that's the list, I think Porter is the one most likely to be there at 9 and he could send Bears' Nation over the cliff by picking him. But he won't care, he will stick to his board and his long term plan.
Of course each board us gonna vary a bit...
I do feel like he probably has those 2/QBs though, and not the other two. So yea, prob 5 position guys and tbd if Carter has dropped.
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I'd say the RB is a "blue chipper"
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Now THATS an interesting take. He's undoubtedly top of his position class, but how strongly does positional value weigh in on Bears grading a guy a blue?
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Interesting thread:
I think Paris Johnson Jr is one of the blue chippers.
Don’t think the QBs are on Poles list otherwise he wouldn’t have traded #1.
Joey Porter is an interesting one.
I think I’d say Gonzalez is higher rated amongst CBs.
I think Paris Johnson Jr is one of the blue chippers.
Don’t think the QBs are on Poles list otherwise he wouldn’t have traded #1.
Joey Porter is an interesting one.
I think I’d say Gonzalez is higher rated amongst CBs.
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I think he would still give them the grades they deserve and could be blue chippers. But as he said one would have to truly blow him away to decide that was the player to take given they already had Fields. I do think that he might not have one rated that high for sure, but I don't think one of them getting that grade would have prevented him from making the trade unless he was overwhelmed by the player.Ditka’s dictaphone wrote: ↑Wed Mar 22, 2023 11:21 am Interesting thread:
I think Paris Johnson Jr is one of the blue chippers.
Don’t think the QBs are on Poles list otherwise he wouldn’t have traded #1.
Joey Porter is an interesting one.
I think I’d say Gonzalez is higher rated amongst CBs.
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The 7 blue chippers might be “media speak” from Poles to be honest but fun thread to speculate
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I don’t put much stock into it. 7 blue chip guys puts him out of reach at #9.
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Dollars to donuts it was three blue-chippers when he talked with the Colts. "Look, I'm really going out on a limb here...."
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IIRC I thought he said 7 non-QB blue chippers?
Even if the list includes a couple of QBs it wouldn't include all of them. Probably no more than 2. And it is likely Poles doesn't like some player that someone else will pick above 9. He'll have a shot at at least 2 of his BCs at 9. He might even project that he can get one of them at 12 or later and trade down again - or be willing to take the risk.
What is a blue chipper? Attributes AND top performance. Porter is CB3 he's not BC. Paris Johnson is OT1 and he IS BC.
I do think the list includes the RB - and I don't think relative positional value factors into whether a guy is BC. LB and RB can be BC.
Even if the list includes a couple of QBs it wouldn't include all of them. Probably no more than 2. And it is likely Poles doesn't like some player that someone else will pick above 9. He'll have a shot at at least 2 of his BCs at 9. He might even project that he can get one of them at 12 or later and trade down again - or be willing to take the risk.
What is a blue chipper? Attributes AND top performance. Porter is CB3 he's not BC. Paris Johnson is OT1 and he IS BC.
I do think the list includes the RB - and I don't think relative positional value factors into whether a guy is BC. LB and RB can be BC.
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If it’s based on athletic traits, the Nolan Smith and Richardson definitely would be considered blue chippers
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Good examples because they're almost certainly not. Elite performance has to be there too.duckherd50 wrote: ↑Wed Mar 22, 2023 3:05 pm If it’s based on athletic traits, the Nolan Smith and Richardson definitely would be considered blue chippers
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Pretty certain it was clarified in the FA presser that the 7 included QBs.IE wrote: ↑Wed Mar 22, 2023 2:42 pm IIRC I thought he said 7 non-QB blue chippers?
Even if the list includes a couple of QBs it wouldn't include all of them. Probably no more than 2. And it is likely Poles doesn't like some player that someone else will pick above 9. He'll have a shot at at least 2 of his BCs at 9. He might even project that he can get one of them at 12 or later and trade down again - or be willing to take the risk.
What is a blue chipper? Attributes AND top performance. Porter is CB3 he's not BC. Paris Johnson is OT1 and he IS BC.
I do think the list includes the RB - and I don't think relative positional value factors into whether a guy is BC. LB and RB can be BC.
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I think it was just GM speak really. As for how I see Poles thinking going....Anderson won't be there at 9, Carter may but NO WAY does he take him, and the QB's are out. I think at 9 he wants Wilson or Johnson. If they aren't there, he isn't going to reach, he will trade back, and look for Harrison, B Smith, Wright, Myles Murphy, or AA. Just my thoughts.
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I spent the entire flight back from spring break watching draft prospects…
3 guys at 9 have me really intrigued…Paris Johnson, Van Ness, and Broderick Jones. I think all 3 will be day 1 starters and year in and out All-Pro players.
I also have a prediction…AA from Northwestern scares me..I’m predicting he goes a lot later then people are saying. His game tape doesn’t match his workout tape.
3 guys at 9 have me really intrigued…Paris Johnson, Van Ness, and Broderick Jones. I think all 3 will be day 1 starters and year in and out All-Pro players.
I also have a prediction…AA from Northwestern scares me..I’m predicting he goes a lot later then people are saying. His game tape doesn’t match his workout tape.
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Very interesting cblaz, I like Johnson and Jones a lot but also really like Harrison. Van Ness, I just can't get into for some reason. What games or highlights should I watch from him to pull me to the other side?cblaz11 wrote: ↑Fri Mar 24, 2023 1:02 pm I spent the entire flight back from spring break watching draft prospects…
3 guys at 9 have me really intrigued…Paris Johnson, Van Ness, and Broderick Jones. I think all 3 will be day 1 starters and year in and out All-Pro players.
I also have a prediction…AA from Northwestern scares me..I’m predicting he goes a lot later then people are saying. His game tape doesn’t match his workout tape.
I do like AA and think he was more dominant inside than outside, which is maybe why his tape is average. Watch just his inside tape and you may change your mind....maybe, lol.
Still love the 2 Auburn kids and FA-U is probably my favorite edge in the draft.
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Here's an extended and detailed look at Van Ness v. Johnson.
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Wow, judging only by that film, I'd say PJJ wins by a long shot. He kept his QB clean, white washed LVN several times, and basically let him bull rush each time. Can the kid do anything besides lunge into the tackle and try to push him back? Just asking, from this film.
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That's certainly an interpretation. Mine differs. I see good footwork by Johnson, and a lot of hugging and holding. Pencil-him-in-for-the-Packers-quality holding. I see him being walked into his QB's lap right off the bat, forcing a rushed, errant throw, and a couple of running plays that his man frankly shouldn't have been in position to make. From JVN, I see good hands, excellent balance and leverage ("lunging" is unfair, and I'd like to think that you know it), and no go-to move to disengage and turn the corner. For a DE, too often he makes a good NT. I see the athletic ability to turn the corner, though, when the play allows it. Just not a way to force the issue, which leaves him sort of useless when he's not able to play directly off his bull rush.Hoog wrote: ↑Fri Mar 24, 2023 1:59 pm
Wow, judging only by that film, I'd say PJJ wins by a long shot. He kept his QB clean, white washed LVN several times, and basically let him bull rush each time. Can the kid do anything besides lunge into the tackle and try to push him back? Just asking, from this film.
To me, it's a wash, which is why I thought this was a good example. Neither player is what I'd like him to be right now, and neither would feel like any sort of coup at #9. But the upside is there for both guys. I'm far more worried about our defensive line right now than our offensive line, and since we're forced to blue-sky everyone at #9 a bit, I'm leaning toward the DE.
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I think Poles' blue chippers are
4 QBs "Blue chip" because of positional value
Consensus blue-chippers Jalen Carter and Will Anderson
and #7 will magically be whoever he drafts at 9
As for PJJ and Hercules, I think both guys have great physical attributes but have areas to improve technique-wise. That's why they're in the discussion at #9
Nobody at 9 will is a sure-thing blue-chipper in my opinion. I'm good with the trade-back though because I'm happy with red-chipper DJ Moore and the two additional red chip guys we should get from 9 and Carolina's 1st next year.
4 QBs "Blue chip" because of positional value
Consensus blue-chippers Jalen Carter and Will Anderson
and #7 will magically be whoever he drafts at 9
As for PJJ and Hercules, I think both guys have great physical attributes but have areas to improve technique-wise. That's why they're in the discussion at #9
Nobody at 9 will is a sure-thing blue-chipper in my opinion. I'm good with the trade-back though because I'm happy with red-chipper DJ Moore and the two additional red chip guys we should get from 9 and Carolina's 1st next year.
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I'm sorry, I thought you threw that to me for JVN highlights. This film is pretty much what I have seen so far from him though. He's pretty strong but initiates contact right away. Yes, he has good hands and pushes lineman back, BUT, where is the sack? Where is the pressure? He won't be able to push many experienced NFL OT's back like that and needs to develop a spin move or swim move, pretty much something else for me to buy in here. Lineman will figure him.out and nueter him if that's all he brings to the.party. Just not sold on this athletic human yet.karhu wrote: ↑Fri Mar 24, 2023 2:21 pmThat's certainly an interpretation. Mine differs. I see good footwork by Johnson, and a lot of hugging and holding. Pencil-him-in-for-the-Packers-quality holding. I see him being walked into his QB's lap right off the bat, forcing a rushed, errant throw, and a couple of running plays that his man frankly shouldn't have been in position to make. From JVN, I see good hands, excellent balance and leverage ("lunging" is unfair, and I'd like to think that you know it), and no go-to move to disengage and turn the corner. For a DE, too often he makes a good NT. I see the athletic ability to turn the corner, though, when the play allows it. Just not a way to force the issue, which leaves him sort of useless when he's not able to play directly off his bull rush.Hoog wrote: ↑Fri Mar 24, 2023 1:59 pm
Wow, judging only by that film, I'd say PJJ wins by a long shot. He kept his QB clean, white washed LVN several times, and basically let him bull rush each time. Can the kid do anything besides lunge into the tackle and try to push him back? Just asking, from this film.
To me, it's a wash, which is why I thought this was a good example. Neither player is what I'd like him to be right now, and neither would feel like any sort of coup at #9. But the upside is there for both guys. I'm far more worried about our defensive line right now than our offensive line, and since we're forced to blue-sky everyone at #9 a bit, I'm leaning toward the DE.
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If you want highlights, you know where to find 'em. I tend to cast a cold eye on them, but it won't take much work to find the Skoronski murder, erm, play.Hoog wrote: ↑Fri Mar 24, 2023 2:59 pmI'm sorry, I thought you threw that to me for JVN highlights. This film is pretty much what I have seen so far from him though. He's pretty strong but initiates contact right away. Yes, he has good hands and pushes lineman back, BUT, where is the sack? Where is the pressure? He won't be able to push many experienced NFL OT's back like that and needs to develop a spin move or swim move, pretty much something else for me to buy in here. Lineman will figure him.out and nueter him if that's all he brings to the.party. Just not sold on this athletic human yet.karhu wrote: ↑Fri Mar 24, 2023 2:21 pm
That's certainly an interpretation. Mine differs. I see good footwork by Johnson, and a lot of hugging and holding. Pencil-him-in-for-the-Packers-quality holding. I see him being walked into his QB's lap right off the bat, forcing a rushed, errant throw, and a couple of running plays that his man frankly shouldn't have been in position to make. From JVN, I see good hands, excellent balance and leverage ("lunging" is unfair, and I'd like to think that you know it), and no go-to move to disengage and turn the corner. For a DE, too often he makes a good NT. I see the athletic ability to turn the corner, though, when the play allows it. Just not a way to force the issue, which leaves him sort of useless when he's not able to play directly off his bull rush.
To me, it's a wash, which is why I thought this was a good example. Neither player is what I'd like him to be right now, and neither would feel like any sort of coup at #9. But the upside is there for both guys. I'm far more worried about our defensive line right now than our offensive line, and since we're forced to blue-sky everyone at #9 a bit, I'm leaning toward the DE.
As for the rest, I don't think that anyone's disagreeing that Van Ness is a project. Applying the same skepticism to everyone, though, we ought to agree that Johnson won't be able to cradle NFL DEs in his warm embrace, either. It's like an O. Henry story. Skoronski knows what to do with his hands, but they're too close to his shoulders; Johnson's arms are long enough, but he doesn't have a clue about using them.
In a month or so, this will all come down to who the Bears trust will develop--not who they think is the best bet as his game currently stands.
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I thought that as well, but during a presser he did say the 7 included the QBs.IE wrote: ↑Wed Mar 22, 2023 2:42 pm IIRC I thought he said 7 non-QB blue chippers?
Even if the list includes a couple of QBs it wouldn't include all of them. Probably no more than 2. And it is likely Poles doesn't like some player that someone else will pick above 9. He'll have a shot at at least 2 of his BCs at 9. He might even project that he can get one of them at 12 or later and trade down again - or be willing to take the risk.
What is a blue chipper? Attributes AND top performance. Porter is CB3 he's not BC. Paris Johnson is OT1 and he IS BC.
I do think the list includes the RB - and I don't think relative positional value factors into whether a guy is BC. LB and RB can be BC.
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He can also Try Hard.Hoog wrote: ↑Fri Mar 24, 2023 1:59 pmWow, judging only by that film, I'd say PJJ wins by a long shot. He kept his QB clean, white washed LVN several times, and basically let him bull rush each time. Can the kid do anything besides lunge into the tackle and try to push him back? Just asking, from this film.
But no- he has no other moves yet. And doesn't anticipate snaps either.
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How did you not post the "I don't know what to do with my hands" Will Ferrell here?!?karhu wrote: ↑Fri Mar 24, 2023 5:08 pmIf you want highlights, you know where to find 'em. I tend to cast a cold eye on them, but it won't take much work to find the Skoronski murder, erm, play.Hoog wrote: ↑Fri Mar 24, 2023 2:59 pm
I'm sorry, I thought you threw that to me for JVN highlights. This film is pretty much what I have seen so far from him though. He's pretty strong but initiates contact right away. Yes, he has good hands and pushes lineman back, BUT, where is the sack? Where is the pressure? He won't be able to push many experienced NFL OT's back like that and needs to develop a spin move or swim move, pretty much something else for me to buy in here. Lineman will figure him.out and nueter him if that's all he brings to the.party. Just not sold on this athletic human yet.
As for the rest, I don't think that anyone's disagreeing that Van Ness is a project. Applying the same skepticism to everyone, though, we ought to agree that Johnson won't be able to cradle NFL DEs in his warm embrace, either. It's like an O. Henry story. Skoronski knows what to do with his hands, but they're too close to his shoulders; Johnson's arms are long enough, but he doesn't have a clue about using them.
In a month or so, this will all come down to who the Bears trust will develop--not who they think is the best bet as his game currently stands.
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Here youRichH55 wrote: ↑Fri Mar 24, 2023 8:50 pmHow did you not post the "I don't know what to do with my hands" Will Ferrell here?!?karhu wrote: ↑Fri Mar 24, 2023 5:08 pm
If you want highlights, you know where to find 'em. I tend to cast a cold eye on them, but it won't take much work to find the Skoronski murder, erm, play.
As for the rest, I don't think that anyone's disagreeing that Van Ness is a project. Applying the same skepticism to everyone, though, we ought to agree that Johnson won't be able to cradle NFL DEs in his warm embrace, either. It's like an O. Henry story. Skoronski knows what to do with his hands, but they're too close to his shoulders; Johnson's arms are long enough, but he doesn't have a clue about using them.
In a month or so, this will all come down to who the Bears trust will develop--not who they think is the best bet as his game currently stands.
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Cblaz, is there some tape you can point to? I ask because I've watched the Nebraska and Ohio State clips and I was pretty impressed. Just wondering if you saw another clip?cblaz11 wrote: ↑Fri Mar 24, 2023 1:02 pm I spent the entire flight back from spring break watching draft prospects…
3 guys at 9 have me really intrigued…Paris Johnson, Van Ness, and Broderick Jones. I think all 3 will be day 1 starters and year in and out All-Pro players.
I also have a prediction…AA from Northwestern scares me..I’m predicting he goes a lot later then people are saying. His game tape doesn’t match his workout tape.
From those two tapes what I've noticed:
He gets held a lot. Often, he's required to set the edge or inside it's like he's required to run a picket fence. In those instances, he doesn't even try to rush. When he does, he shows a distinct lake of moves. He relies on his speed and his bull rush alone. Really needs to work on his hand work. Maybe take some Jiu Jitsu? This would allow him to go from a bull rush to a speed rush by disengaging. Would also love to see a spin move from him. But I also see where his speed and power is very hard to contend with, particularly inside.
He needs a lot work, but his potential is sky high, particularly inside. You do see his power and speed that was prevalent in his Combine workout on the field. Not all the time, some because of his defensive role and some because he needs work on his hands and to develop some moves. But in our defense he's a natural 3T. We won't be holding him back or moving him around the way Northwestern did.