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Ditka’s dictaphone wrote: Thu Jan 25, 2024 11:33 am
dplank wrote: Thu Jan 25, 2024 11:26 am Son of a bitch. I stand corrected.

And yes, I've taken you off block. Probably won't last long but I like to check in from time to time and see if there's been any change in behavior. Early returns are poor.
Except both of you are wrong to attribute this to specious logic.

Crying like a bitch at a sports event shows a lack of emotional intelligence - which in pro sports = bust potential.

So @HurricaneBear was correct.
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The Marshall Plan wrote: Thu Jan 25, 2024 11:40 am
Ditka’s dictaphone wrote: Thu Jan 25, 2024 11:33 am

Except both of you are wrong to attribute this to specious logic.

Crying like a bitch at a sports event shows a lack of emotional intelligence - which in pro sports = bust potential.

So @HurricaneBear was correct.
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Ditka’s dictaphone wrote: Wed Jan 24, 2024 3:23 pm I mean I don’t know if Caleb impresses Poles and gets drafted.
If he’s the Bears QB I’ll be 100% behind him.

But that reaction to mild adversity is a bit of a concern for me.
It was the end of any playoff chance for USC and ostensibly the end of his college career - not sure I'd characterize it as 'mild adversity'. They lost, yet again, due to the defense being incapable of stopping anyone. Caleb played tremendous in that game but he couldn't will his team to victory - it probably was pretty overwhelming.

If the kid sits stone-faced then he's selfish and doesn't care. If he shows emotion than he's a 'momma's boy bitch'.
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Magilla_Gorilla wrote: Fri Jan 26, 2024 3:37 pm
Ditka’s dictaphone wrote: Wed Jan 24, 2024 3:23 pm I mean I don’t know if Caleb impresses Poles and gets drafted.
If he’s the Bears QB I’ll be 100% behind him.

But that reaction to mild adversity is a bit of a concern for me.
It was the end of any playoff chance for USC and ostensibly the end of his college career - not sure I'd characterize it as 'mild adversity'. They lost, yet again, due to the defense being incapable of stopping anyone. Caleb played tremendous in that game but he couldn't will his team to victory - it probably was pretty overwhelming.

If the kid sits stone-faced then he's selfish and doesn't care. If he shows emotion than he's a 'momma's boy bitch'.
Haters gonna hate.

I have no idea what is the right choice with the #1 pick. Lots of merit to both sides.
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Arkansasbear wrote: Fri Jan 26, 2024 3:56 pm
Magilla_Gorilla wrote: Fri Jan 26, 2024 3:37 pm

It was the end of any playoff chance for USC and ostensibly the end of his college career - not sure I'd characterize it as 'mild adversity'. They lost, yet again, due to the defense being incapable of stopping anyone. Caleb played tremendous in that game but he couldn't will his team to victory - it probably was pretty overwhelming.

If the kid sits stone-faced then he's selfish and doesn't care. If he shows emotion than he's a 'momma's boy bitch'.
Haters gonna hate.

I have no idea what is the right choice with the #1 pick. Lots of merit to both sides.
I’m not a hater.
Just pointing out, that crying to his mummy is not really a recognised strong leadership quality.
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Magilla_Gorilla wrote: Fri Jan 26, 2024 3:37 pm
Ditka’s dictaphone wrote: Wed Jan 24, 2024 3:23 pm I mean I don’t know if Caleb impresses Poles and gets drafted.
If he’s the Bears QB I’ll be 100% behind him.

But that reaction to mild adversity is a bit of a concern for me.
It was the end of any playoff chance for USC and ostensibly the end of his college career - not sure I'd characterize it as 'mild adversity'. They lost, yet again, due to the defense being incapable of stopping anyone. Caleb played tremendous in that game but he couldn't will his team to victory - it probably was pretty overwhelming.

If the kid sits stone-faced then he's selfish and doesn't care. If he shows emotion than he's a 'momma's boy bitch'.

There are obviously other ways to react.
You can show disappointment without crying to your mummy.
React like a leader - congratulate the victors, show compassion and empathy to your team mates.

Crying to your mum is actually a very selfish thing to do, it’s all about his disappointment, forget his team mates.
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I wasn’t raised to believe that crying is a sign of weakness.

Also, in college football it is completely normal for players postgame to spend time with their families in the stands.
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Here's a picture of a guy who had no leadership at all, and famous for his crying:

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Last edited by LacertineForest on Sat Jan 27, 2024 5:52 am, edited 1 time in total.
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“Losers quit when they’re tired. Winners quit when they’ve won.” - Mike Ditka
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Magilla_Gorilla wrote: Fri Jan 26, 2024 5:25 pm I wasn’t raised to believe that crying is a sign of weakness.

Also, in college football it is completely normal for players postgame to spend time with their families in the stands.
We see it differently although I didn’t characterise it as “weakness”.

Just poor leadership skills and poor emotional intelligence.

There are lots of reasons to cry, losing a college football game isn’t one of them in my opinion
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LacertineForest wrote: Fri Jan 26, 2024 5:56 pm Here's a picture of a guy that had no leadership at all, and famous for his crying:

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Over the result of a college game??
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Ditka’s dictaphone wrote: Fri Jan 26, 2024 6:11 pm
LacertineForest wrote: Fri Jan 26, 2024 5:56 pm Here's a picture of a guy that had no leadership at all, and famous for his crying:

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Over the result of a college game??
Context doesn't matter. Real leaders don't cry.
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Ditka’s dictaphone wrote: Fri Jan 26, 2024 6:11 pm
Over the result of a college game??
You keep saying this - Caleb had 10 losses in college, do you think it’s possible maybe a little more context is needed for this particular game?
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Ditka’s dictaphone wrote: Fri Jan 26, 2024 6:11 pm
LacertineForest wrote: Fri Jan 26, 2024 5:56 pm Here's a picture of a guy that had no leadership at all, and famous for his crying:

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Over the result of a college game??
He had a lot of money riding on it
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Magilla_Gorilla wrote: Fri Jan 26, 2024 6:31 pm
Ditka’s dictaphone wrote: Fri Jan 26, 2024 6:11 pm
Over the result of a college game??
You keep saying this - Caleb had 10 losses in college, do you think it’s possible maybe a little more context is needed for this particular game?
I believe that game completely eliminated USC’s chances of playing in the Pac 12 championship game which means he wasn’t going to be able to achieve one of his goals as a college player and he was just going to be playing out the string of his college career.
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I haven’t spoken out on this topic, but I’m going to now. I’m with Mr. Gorilla on this. I am going to confess something too. I was an above average OG in HS football. Played at about 190 lbs as a Sr. Captain of my team (we were 6-3). Ran about a 4.9 at about 205 lbs before the season. 5’11”. I knew my genetics had me pegged right there. It was never going to get better for me than that moment as an athlete. Wouldn’t get taller or faster. Why am I telling you this? Because all of this went through my head b4 each game. I knew all of the blocking assignments for all 5 of us and some of the TE. We had a pulling guard for maybe 40% of our plays and often I would switch to the other OG if it was just one guy pulling and the assignment wasn’t initially mine. I would get so worked up before the game, visualizing every play, vs every front they could present to us. And then it would hit me that this was one less time I could do it. And I would start to weep. I cried before every game. Yup. Crybaby Noots. There wasn’t a guy on that team who questioned it or me.

I don’t have a problem with Williams crying after the game. If he meets every moment on the field with icy calm and leaves it all out there, I could give a shit if he jumps into the stands to be with his mom and has a cry. What were the circumstances? Do we know? Was that the loss that eliminated them from a playoff bowl bid, effectively ending his collegiate career unless he wanted to play in a meaningless bowl game?

Leaders don’t cry? Shit, Dick Vermeil was a great leader and he cried all the fucking time.

My emotions are all over the map on our situation coming up. It’s a great place to be.
Take Williams at 1. I’m ok. Then trade off or keep 9? I’m ok.
Trade 1 and draft another QB later? I’m ok. Put a bunch around JF1? I’m ok too.

I don’t fucking care if he cried after that game. This shouldn’t be a factor. If anything, it makes me want to support the guy as someone who actually gives a shit.
Last edited by Noots on Fri Jan 26, 2024 11:15 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Same, Noots.

I don't give a tinker's damn if a dude cries, or if he paints his nails, or what the fuck ever. None of it makes him a bad leader or any bullshit like that. His life, let him live it.

I have some significant concerns about Caleb Williams, but they have nothing to do with any of that.
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dplank wrote:I agree with Rich here
RichH55 wrote: Dplank is correct
:shocked:
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Noots wrote: Fri Jan 26, 2024 10:04 pm I haven’t spoken out on this topic, but I’m going to now. I’m with Mr. Gorilla on this. I am going to confess something too. I was an above average OG in HS football. Played at about 190 lbs as a Sr. Captain of my team (we were 6-3). Ran about a 4.9 at about 205 lbs before the season. 5’11”. I knew my genetics had me pegged right there. It was never going to get better for me than that moment as an athlete. Wouldn’t get taller or faster. Why am I telling you this? Because all of this went through my head b4 each game. I knew all of the blocking assignments for all 5 of us and some of the TE. We had a pulling guard for maybe 40% of our plays and often I would switch to the other OG if it was just one guy pulling and the assignment wasn’t initially mine. I would get so worked up before the game, visualizing every play, vs every front they could present to us. And then it would hit me that this was one less time I could do it. And I would start to weep. I cried before every game. Yup. Crybaby Noots. There wasn’t a guy on that team who questioned it or me.

I don’t have a problem with Williams crying after the game. If he meets every moment on the field with icy calm and leaves it all out there, I could give a shit if he jumps into the stands to be with his mom and has a cry. What were the circumstances? Do we know? Was that the loss that eliminated them from a playoff bowl bid, effectively ending his collegiate career unless he wanted to play in a meaningless bowl game?

Leaders don’t cry? Shit, Dick Vermeil was a great leader and he cried all the fucking time.

My emotions are all over the map on our situation coming up. It’s a great place to be.
Take Williams at 1. I’m ok. Then trade off or keep 9? I’m ok.
Trade 1 and draft another QB later? I’m ok. Put a bunch around JF1? I’m ok too.

I don’t fucking care if he cried after that game. This shouldn’t be a factor. If anything, it makes me want to support the guy as someone who actually gives shit.
Counterpoint - you'd have been a terrible 1st Round pick ;)
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For so many reasons…
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thunderspirit wrote: Fri Jan 26, 2024 10:11 pm Same, Noots.

I don't give a tinker's damn if a dude cries, or if he paints his nails, or what the fuck ever. None of it makes him a bad leader or any bullshit like that. His life, let him live it.

I have some significant concerns about Caleb Williams, but they have nothing to do with any of that.
Same, too. I worry that he’ll be holding TMP’s balls too long, just like JF1 does.
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Noots wrote: Fri Jan 26, 2024 10:04 pm I haven’t spoken out on this topic, but I’m going to now. I’m with Mr. Gorilla on this. I am going to confess something too. I was an above average OG in HS football. Played at about 190 lbs as a Sr. Captain of my team (we were 6-3). Ran about a 4.9 at about 205 lbs before the season. 5’11”. I knew my genetics had me pegged right there. It was never going to get better for me than that moment as an athlete. Wouldn’t get taller or faster. Why am I telling you this? Because all of this went through my head b4 each game. I knew all of the blocking assignments for all 5 of us and some of the TE. We had a pulling guard for maybe 40% of our plays and often I would switch to the other OG if it was just one guy pulling and the assignment wasn’t initially mine. I would get so worked up before the game, visualizing every play, vs every front they could present to us. And then it would hit me that this was one less time I could do it. And I would start to weep. I cried before every game. Yup. Crybaby Noots. There wasn’t a guy on that team who questioned it or me.

I don’t have a problem with Williams crying after the game. If he meets every moment on the field with icy calm and leaves it all out there, I could give a shit if he jumps into the stands to be with his mom and has a cry. What were the circumstances? Do we know? Was that the loss that eliminated them from a playoff bowl bid, effectively ending his collegiate career unless he wanted to play in a meaningless bowl game?

Leaders don’t cry? Shit, Dick Vermeil was a great leader and he cried all the fucking time.

My emotions are all over the map on our situation coming up. It’s a great place to be.
Take Williams at 1. I’m ok. Then trade off or keep 9? I’m ok.
Trade 1 and draft another QB later? I’m ok. Put a bunch around JF1? I’m ok too.

I don’t fucking care if he cried after that game. This shouldn’t be a factor. If anything, it makes me want to support the guy as someone who actually gives a shit.
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Noots wrote: Fri Jan 26, 2024 10:04 pm I haven’t spoken out on this topic, but I’m going to now. I’m with Mr. Gorilla on this. I am going to confess something too. I was an above average OG in HS football. Played at about 190 lbs as a Sr. Captain of my team (we were 6-3). Ran about a 4.9 at about 205 lbs before the season. 5’11”. I knew my genetics had me pegged right there. It was never going to get better for me than that moment as an athlete. Wouldn’t get taller or faster. Why am I telling you this? Because all of this went through my head b4 each game. I knew all of the blocking assignments for all 5 of us and some of the TE. We had a pulling guard for maybe 40% of our plays and often I would switch to the other OG if it was just one guy pulling and the assignment wasn’t initially mine. I would get so worked up before the game, visualizing every play, vs every front they could present to us. And then it would hit me that this was one less time I could do it. And I would start to weep. I cried before every game. Yup. Crybaby Noots. There wasn’t a guy on that team who questioned it or me.

I don’t have a problem with Williams crying after the game. If he meets every moment on the field with icy calm and leaves it all out there, I could give a shit if he jumps into the stands to be with his mom and has a cry. What were the circumstances? Do we know? Was that the loss that eliminated them from a playoff bowl bid, effectively ending his collegiate career unless he wanted to play in a meaningless bowl game?

Leaders don’t cry? Shit, Dick Vermeil was a great leader and he cried all the fucking time.

My emotions are all over the map on our situation coming up. It’s a great place to be.
Take Williams at 1. I’m ok. Then trade off or keep 9? I’m ok.
Trade 1 and draft another QB later? I’m ok. Put a bunch around JF1? I’m ok too.

I don’t fucking care if he cried after that game. This shouldn’t be a factor. If anything, it makes me want to support the guy as someone who actually gives a shit.
Great post @Noots

I feel some of my posts on this are being misinterpreted.
I didn’t say “leaders don’t cry”. I did say that reaction after a game gives me concerns about his leadership.
There’s an important difference and it is for Poles to discern what Caleb’s leadership qualities are.
Importantly Poles needs to know whether he has the mental resilience to replace fan favourite Justin Fields, play QB in the NFL , as #1 pick overall, in Chicago (the place QBs come to die).

The challenge of being that QB is going to be huge. It’s not a question of ability. He is going to be under extreme mental pressure every game. This is not Jacksonville, it’s not Huston, this is more pressure. He is going to have the whole NFL world watching and all except Bears fans will be hoping for him to bust big time. The media will be desperate to pull him down.

He needs to be able to handle that. He’s going to need a shitload of mental toughness and resilience to block that shit out.

It’s up to Poles and team to figure this out, not me - some dumbass on a message board. Whatever Poles decides, he’ll get 100% support from me. :thumbsup:

Edit: and one of the best songs of all time is “Boys don’t cry”
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Ditka’s dictaphone wrote: Sat Jan 27, 2024 5:33 am
Noots wrote: Fri Jan 26, 2024 10:04 pm I haven’t spoken out on this topic, but I’m going to now. I’m with Mr. Gorilla on this. I am going to confess something too. I was an above average OG in HS football. Played at about 190 lbs as a Sr. Captain of my team (we were 6-3). Ran about a 4.9 at about 205 lbs before the season. 5’11”. I knew my genetics had me pegged right there. It was never going to get better for me than that moment as an athlete. Wouldn’t get taller or faster. Why am I telling you this? Because all of this went through my head b4 each game. I knew all of the blocking assignments for all 5 of us and some of the TE. We had a pulling guard for maybe 40% of our plays and often I would switch to the other OG if it was just one guy pulling and the assignment wasn’t initially mine. I would get so worked up before the game, visualizing every play, vs every front they could present to us. And then it would hit me that this was one less time I could do it. And I would start to weep. I cried before every game. Yup. Crybaby Noots. There wasn’t a guy on that team who questioned it or me.

I don’t have a problem with Williams crying after the game. If he meets every moment on the field with icy calm and leaves it all out there, I could give a shit if he jumps into the stands to be with his mom and has a cry. What were the circumstances? Do we know? Was that the loss that eliminated them from a playoff bowl bid, effectively ending his collegiate career unless he wanted to play in a meaningless bowl game?

Leaders don’t cry? Shit, Dick Vermeil was a great leader and he cried all the fucking time.

My emotions are all over the map on our situation coming up. It’s a great place to be.
Take Williams at 1. I’m ok. Then trade off or keep 9? I’m ok.
Trade 1 and draft another QB later? I’m ok. Put a bunch around JF1? I’m ok too.

I don’t fucking care if he cried after that game. This shouldn’t be a factor. If anything, it makes me want to support the guy as someone who actually gives a shit.
Great post @Noots

I feel some of my posts on this are being misinterpreted.
I didn’t say “leaders don’t cry”. I did say that reaction after a game gives me concerns about his leadership.
There’s an important difference and it is for Poles to discern what Caleb’s leadership qualities are.
Importantly Poles needs to know whether he has the mental resilience to replace fan favourite Justin Fields, play QB in the NFL , as #1 pick overall, in Chicago (the place QBs come to die).

The challenge of being that QB is going to be huge. It’s not a question of ability. He is going to be under extreme mental pressure every game. This is not Jacksonville, it’s not Huston, this is more pressure. He is going to have the whole NFL world watching and all except Bears fans will be hoping for him to bust big time. The media will be desperate to pull him down.

He needs to be able to handle that. He’s going to need a shitload of mental toughness and resilience to block that shit out.

It’s up to Poles and team to figure this out, not me - some dumbass on a message board. Whatever Poles decides, he’ll get 100% support from me. :thumbsup:

Edit: and one of the best songs of all time is “Boys don’t cry”
This is correct. There are legitimate concerns about his leadership, the crying is one small part of it but it is a thing. I get tearing up, I get crying in your own private hell in the locker room, or with your teammates - but Noots did you run to your Mom and cry? A bit different. I teared up bigtime when my coach told all of us seniors our final Saturday that this was the last time we'd all play the game together again, and for most of us the last time we'd ever play a competitive team sport like this again in our lives. I get it. Guys were upset, nostalgic, etc. Not one of them went to mom, and if they had they'd have been mocked mercilessly for it. That's just how kids are/were. But there's more than that - you combine it with other "signs" that make you wonder. None of it is conclusive in and of itself, and even the sum total may ultimately be a nothingburger - I'm not saying either way, I'm saying Poles needs to really dive in to this aspect of him because it's not skill but the mental side that takes down every single highly talented draft pick that failed (well, that and injury). You have to really, truly value the mental side of the player as much as the skill side - I'm watching G08 drool over the skill side and it doesn't move me one iota, I've already conceded that part of him is great. I would expect all the Fields haters to get this (I know you aren't one of them Noots), but this is what they've hammered on forever. The mental side is multi faceted, there's processing stuff (which is what folks ding Fields on), there's maturity stuff, there's leadership, there's work ethic/desire to be great, there's ego/humility - it's a large bucket to assess. Personally, this is just me, I value work ethic and leadership the most because those things are inherent IMO while other things can be learned.

So there's the crying - and not just nostalgic tears but outright weeping in the arms of his mommy (sorry, that's just weird to me, I want Don Corleone to just slap him and say "be a man!"). There's the fact that despite his immense skill his team was a bigtime disappointment/loser. Then there's the weird photo shoot stuff (which IMO plays to massive ego/it's all about me). Then there's the teammates chanting "We're a team now" when they won a bowl game without him (IMO, the most damning part of all of this and pairs with the massive ego concern). If I were Poles, I'd find a trusted source inside that building that could tell me one thing with complete honesty - did his teammates like him and follow him? If yes, I'm good. If no, I pass.
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LOL—no, I didn’t go to my mom to cry after the game. She didn’t understand football—she used to leave my brother’s games at halftime because she thought it was over. My pop might have been to 2 or 3 of my games across 4 years. Thankfully my brother was at almost every game, was 8 years older than me and cut his teeth as an assistant coach for our HS team before going on to be a great HC and GM on many levels. I never cried after. But if one of my teammates cried after the game, even if it was my quarterback (who went on to fucking off himself about 15 years later), and even if it was to his momma, I would have been there for him.

The other “I don’t know” about this is his relationship with his mom. My brother was more like a father figure to me in football, for lots of reasons. What do we know about Caleb and his parents? There’s cameras everywhere now. I can’t really see how it’s a salient topic to attach to speculation about anything. You wanna attach it to something? How about that football is really important to him?

Does anybody remember Michael Haynes, 1st round pick of the Bears, DE from Penn State? I think he went the same year we took Grossman a few picks later. I thought he was going to be a great DE for us. Football wasn’t that important to him at the time (LOL I think he’s a HS Football Coach now). Played about 5 years and washed out. I don’t think we’ll have this question with Caleb Williams.
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If we're going to be drafting a QB at #1, which we SHOULD NOT be doing, can it at least be somebody who isn't a total pussy and who didn't go 1-5 and the second half of their last season?
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Ditka’s dictaphone wrote: Sat Jan 27, 2024 5:33 am Edit: and one of the best songs of all time is “Boys don’t cry”
Thanked solely because of this. :D
KFFL refugee.

dplank wrote:I agree with Rich here
RichH55 wrote: Dplank is correct
:shocked:
Magilla_Gorilla
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The Marshall Plan wrote: Sat Jan 27, 2024 10:26 am If we're going to be drafting a QB at #1, which we SHOULD NOT be doing, can it at least be somebody who isn't a total pussy and who didn't go 1-5 and the second half of their last season?
Yes. That 1-5 definitely wasn’t because of that shifty defense.

*Whispers* Patrick Mahomes went 5-7 his final year and never lost fewer than 6 games in a season in college.
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thunderspirit
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Wins are not a QB stat, even at the FBS college level.
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dplank wrote:I agree with Rich here
RichH55 wrote: Dplank is correct
:shocked:
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thunderspirit wrote: Sat Jan 27, 2024 10:33 am
Ditka’s dictaphone wrote: Sat Jan 27, 2024 5:33 am Edit: and one of the best songs of all time is “Boys don’t cry”
Thanked solely because of this. :D
Noted :toast:
(26/09/2023) Winner of the inaugural

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