Bears trade 4th rd pick to Chargers for WR Keenan Allen

[crueltyabc]

How do these trades and re-signings impact the compensatory pick calculation?

[wab]

How do these trades and re-signings impact the compensatory pick calculation?

I could be wrong, but I don't think Allen factors in because he's been in the NFL so long. I feel like I read that there's a 10yr accrued seasons cut off.

But I could have misread it.

[Magilla_Gorilla]

How do these trades and re-signings impact the compensatory pick calculation?

Trades and resigning your own players don't count toward the compensatory calculations. Its a 1:1 based off of Free Agents lost and Free Agents signed. Also, a player like Byard who was cut, would not count as a Free Agent signing and would not go into the compensatory calculation.

[Burl]

Also, I think he's not a player who you would bring on to maximize Fields, since he is more of a technician/precise route runner type WR, where you have to anticipate and throw to precise locations instead of just hope the other teams inexplicably plays man coverage and he breaks free.

To be fair to Fields, until Moore, he never really had a receiver he could count on to be where he was supposed to be. As it is, with Moore, Justin had just started to learn that anticipatory throw. See here:



Until that point, I'd never seen him do that. Maybe that's why Poles is bringing in Allen--to further teach him precisely that.

I suppose in order to teach it right, you need WRs who run them right.
We really just need solid players who do the right things all the time so that there aren't any questions about the QB, regardless of who that is.

[Ditka’s dictaphone]

This is a great trade. Fuck the cap hit I don’t give a rats ass.

Three thumbs up

[Bearfacts]

You could also say it's doing right by a rookie QB and setting him up for success-- something many complained we never did for Justin.

Absolutely but what I meant is that everyone seemed to believe that statement had to do with trading JF not building around him.

[o-pus #40 in B major]

Yeah, the weird concept of punishing Williams after taking him seems strange.

To be fair, view this situation through the lens of somebody who

- has routinely viewed and played football through the lens of high school/collegiate levels
- grew up in times when the NFL was much less QB-driven and not nearly as valuable

I think there's a lot of logical, if not old-fashioned posturing that is afforded to fans who prefer a particular era or mentality or philosophy in terms of football ops. It's uncomfortable, especially for much older fans, to accept that the amount of power players, much less rookies, have, especially quarterbacks, in the modern game.

Yep, that's me.

[Otis Day]

Boomers.

Perhaps, sure. Someday we're all going to be older, grumpier, and feel that the old times were better. I don't agree much with baby boomers, but I definitely prefer to respectfully agree to disagree with them more often than not, and I think in general we could all stand to be kinder. Doesn't cost anything.

I am older and can be grumpier, but I try and be as friendly as I can when I am out and about and people just do not take it well. The majority either look away and look at me like have a problem when I ask them how they are doing or I tell them to have a good day after I say hi to them.

[thunderspirit]

The consensus appears to be that the back half of this draft is trash. NIL has a bunch of what would be early entrants staying in school.

From the director of the Senior Bowl, Jim Nagy:

I remember reading this from Nagy back in January, yeah. And it was reinforced quite a bit by seeing so many call-ups from the other bowl games to the East-West and Senior Bowl.

From around the middle of Round 4 on, you're likely to see some "who the eff is that?" names over guys who played 4-5-6 years who lack a significant draftable quality.

[Bearfacts]

All Ryan Poalcees has to do is trade the 78 + 122 to move up from 9 and his journey to the Dark Side will be complete.

Then draft JJ McCarthy.

The CW Cult will think that's crazy and go nuts but if Poles does decide to trade out of #1 he could do far worse than taking J J as a guy to groom while giving JF more time to see how well he can do with all of the offensive improvements made. That would be two QB's who've won national titles while in college. I believe McCarthy is a sleeper and he's a local kid to boot.

I agree with the idea that Poles cannot draft CW and sit him behind JF, or vice versa. But he could with a kid like J J and should with a kid like J J. I would truly like to see what JF can do with better coaching, a better scheme tailored to his strengths, and the players he'd have supporting him in this new offense. But I also would not completely ignore drafting another top QB.

As good as CW may be QBs don't win championships on their own. Teams do and more often than not it's defense that wins them. In my lifetime the Bears have gotten to two SB with less than top shelf QBs because their defense was good enough to help get them get there without a GOAT QB. Even Aaron Rodgers only got GB to one SB and that was in the year Cutler was so beat up he couldn't finish the NFCC Game and GB went instead. Tom Brady didn't win multiple SB with the best offenses in the NFL either.

I would hope that Poles is at least asking himself whether or not they can win with JF and how much better he might become now that he's gone a long way toward fixing many of the flaws in the offense JF has dealt with and whether Waldron can do for JF what he was able to do with Geno Smith. The potential for Poles be to add even more top tier talent to his team over the next couple of years could be phenomenal. If it was still Ryan Pace doing the drafting I'd have my doubts but with Poles and Co I have none.

I'm 100% certain to get stoned for this kind of thinking but IMHO it's not all at invalid.

[Bearfacts]

The CAP hit being reported is kinda fishy. Normally the trading team eats any bonus money structured into the current deal which means the Bears should only be on the hook for 18M. I'd look at extending him after the season for something like 2/22M with 14M guaranteed and a 12M signing bonus if he keeps his current stats.

I think he will age well as a saavy vet who knows the route tree very well and will be the WR2. I could see Poles trading 1.9 into the late teens (15-18) & get back a 2nd in the high 30 or lower 40's. The elephant in the room now is JF and what kind of return you get for him after the due diligence on all QB targets is done. I think we might sign a cheaper edge guy and call it an off season until the draft.

The bonus is a roster bonus payable on 3/17/2024 not part of his signing bonus which would stay with the Chargers. I also believe Poles is already working on an extension for Allen to free up more cap space which he is now out of.

[UOK]

The CW Cult will think that's crazy and go nuts

I'm 100% certain to get stoned for this kind of thinking but IMHO it's not all at invalid.

This PICK A SIDE, binary civil war of Bears QB thought is awful, and some of you need to calm the hell down. This is not life or death. You have survived much worse as a fan. It shouldn't mean THIS much to you, and making somebody else feel bad because you disagree with their Quarterback Opinion really, really sucks.

[STLINI]

Dallas Turner is a guy I would also take at #9, but I'll be surprised if he gets by Atlanta. Jerad Verse is really the only other edge guy that looks like a fit to me in the first round. I'm lukewarm on him as a 4-3 DE. Byron Murphy would be the other option at DT. I'm not crazy high on Chop Robinson. Not a great first round for defensive lineman.

God damn it I forgot about Atlanta wanting him.

Hopefully JJ McCarthy is there and a team trades up for him

Vikings just picked up another 1st round pick. They seem like they're gearing up to make a trade up unless they really like Nix/Penix.

[Bearfacts]

@HurricaneBear

What are your thoughts on this as it relates to the Quest for Super Duper Offense?

I do like this trade. I think we got a great WR for cheap.

I am worried about a performance drop off because Allen is going from Herbert to Fields or a rookie.

But still, Moore and Allen together is a serious 1-2 punch.

Now how about we go for the balls? Literally and figuratively.

Trade down to 2. Then take MHJ.

D J Moore had the best year of his career catching throws from JF, CW is touted and the second coming of Luck or Mahomes, and THIS concerns you???

[LacertineForest]

I also believe Poles is already working on an extension for Allen to free up more cap space which he is now out of.

Bears still have $27MM in cap space (not counting the rookie pool, which keeps shrinking) this year - what do you mean he is out of cap space? I agree, though, that an extension will be coming that will free up some space.

https://www.spotrac.com/nfl/cap/

(edit: updated cap space total - previously said $35MM, but that was just the top 51).

[G08]

God damn it I forgot about Atlanta wanting him.

Hopefully JJ McCarthy is there and a team trades up for him

Vikings just picked up another 1st round pick. They seem like they're gearing up to make a trade up unless they really like Nix/Penix.

I think they're gunning for the highest pick they can get with their ammo. Curious if it might be #4 and if Arizona wants to dance.

[The Marshall Plan]

@HurricaneBear

What are your thoughts on this as it relates to the Quest for Super Duper Offense?

I do like this trade. I think we got a great WR for cheap.

I am worried about a performance drop off because Allen is going from Herbert to Fields or a rookie.

But still, Moore and Allen together is a serious 1-2 punch.

Now how about we go for the balls? Literally and figuratively.

Trade down to 2. Then take MHJ.

D J Moore had the best year of his career catching throws from JF, CW is touted and the second coming of Luck or Mahomes, and THIS concerns you???

Don’t get me wrong I love JF1 but Herbert is a better QB.

Then a rookie is going to fuck up….cause rookies.

[Bearfacts]

This is a win now move, and with this move, I think that Justin is staying. Not saying he's not going to pick Caleb. He very well might. But Justin should be on our roster next year. He gives us the best chance to win now. I would say that this move is "doing right by Justin Fields."

IMHO that always had more than the single meaning most thought it did.

I'm looking at this the other way; Poles came from Kansas City and observed how Patrick Mahomes was surrounded by talented and proven veterans.

When we draft Caleb Williams, he will be joining a roster with:

WR1 - four 1,000+ yard seasons
WR2 - six 1,000+ yard seasons
TE1 - ascending 24 year old with 67 games under his belt
TE2 - 29 year old with 107 games under his belt
RB1 - 24 year old, versatile and explosive back fresh off a 1,263 total yards and 6 TDs

And if JF stays he'll have the same, 3 more years of NFL experience playing in Chicago not sunny Southern Cali, and a lot of support from his current teammates for his leadership through some tough times. It could mean either and that Poles is doing a great job of not tipping his hand is what's driving so many people crazy. Maybe even you.

[o-pus #40 in B major]

Perhaps, sure. Someday we're all going to be older, grumpier, and feel that the old times were better. I don't agree much with baby boomers, but I definitely prefer to respectfully agree to disagree with them more often than not, and I think in general we could all stand to be kinder. Doesn't cost anything.

I am older and can be grumpier, but I try and be as friendly as I can when I am out and about and people just do not take it well. The majority either look away and look at me like have a problem when I ask them how they are doing or I tell them to have a good day after I say hi to them.

Me, too.

In my case it seems to work best if I remember to clean up before I go to town and put on fresh clothes.

[Bearfacts]

D J Moore had the best year of his career catching throws from JF, CW is touted and the second coming of Luck or Mahomes, and THIS concerns you???

Don’t get me wrong I love JF1 but Herbert is a better QB.

Then a rookie is going to fuck up….cause rookies.

I don't disagree but then who has Herbert been throwing to for his entire NFL career? Who has JF had? In one year with Moore he helped him set a career best for him. Now that Keenan Allen and Williams are no longer Herbert's WR what then? What can JF do now with four very good pass catchers and a better receiving RB?

If I thought JF could never get any better, that he's topped out as a passer, I would be all in on CW. But I don't believe that's true. So for me it's less which is a better passer CW or JF than it is what choice will help build the best team I can the earliest I can build it into a championship level team. That's how I look at it and hope Poles is doing the same.

[Bearfacts]

I also believe Poles is already working on an extension for Allen to free up more cap space which he is now out of.

Bears still have $27MM in cap space (not counting the rookie pool, which keeps shrinking) this year - what do you mean he is out of cap space? I agree, though, that an extension will be coming that will free up some space.

https://www.spotrac.com/nfl/cap/

(edit: updated cap space total - previously said $35MM, but that was just the top 51).

I don't believe all of the new deals have yet been accounted for. Swifty and Adam Mason both reviewed this in a video and after subtracting for the rookie pool Poles had a little less than $7 mil remaining. I have not had time to audit this myself so they may have made an error in their calculations but for now I'll trust the work they did since both are pretty thorough with this stuff.

For now I'll accept that Poles doesn't have room for anything major until he does create more space either through an extension for Allen of releasing a player or two like Borom as an example. And that may be ok for now although it seems there are at least a couple more holes he might want to fill like another DT and a 3rd TE. It's not a major problem to cut into the reserve he would usually carry into the season if he can recoup it later but remember. This is only the top 51 not all 53 plus a PS salaries which also count.

[G08]

I'm looking at this the other way; Poles came from Kansas City and observed how Patrick Mahomes was surrounded by talented and proven veterans.

When we draft Caleb Williams, he will be joining a roster with:

WR1 - four 1,000+ yard seasons
WR2 - six 1,000+ yard seasons
TE1 - ascending 24 year old with 67 games under his belt
TE2 - 29 year old with 107 games under his belt
RB1 - 24 year old, versatile and explosive back fresh off a 1,263 total yards and 6 TDs

And if JF stays he'll have the same, 3 more years of NFL experience playing in Chicago not sunny Southern Cali, and a lot of support from his current teammates for his leadership through some tough times. It could mean either and that Poles is doing a great job of not tipping his hand is what's driving so many people crazy. Maybe even you.

I've been cursed with the ability to see certain glimpses of the future.

[wulfy]

The CW Cult will think that's crazy and go nuts

I'm 100% certain to get stoned for this kind of thinking but IMHO it's not all at invalid.

This PICK A SIDE, binary civil war of Bears QB thought is awful, and some of you need to calm the hell down. This is not life or death. You have survived much worse as a fan. It shouldn't mean THIS much to you, and making somebody else feel bad because you disagree with their Quarterback Opinion really, really sucks.

This is the greatest "problem" we've ever had as Bears fans. There is a potential path to great success with either decision. And, unfortunately, a path to doom and destruction with either decision.

We just assume the Bears will make the worse decision (as that has been the outcome many times.)

I think the Bears should draft Caleb - but I've always been a fan of Justin's. And I'll be a fan of Justin when he finds his next team, as long as it's not Green Bay.

[grendel2000]

Then draft JJ McCarthy.

The CW Cult will think that's crazy and go nuts but if Poles does decide to trade out of #1 he could do far worse than taking J J as a guy to groom while giving JF more time to see how well he can do with all of the offensive improvements made. That would be two QB's who've won national titles while in college. I believe McCarthy is a sleeper and he's a local kid to boot.

I agree with the idea that Poles cannot draft CW and sit him behind JF, or vice versa. But he could with a kid like J J and should with a kid like J J. I would truly like to see what JF can do with better coaching, a better scheme tailored to his strengths, and the players he'd have supporting him in this new offense. But I also would not completely ignore drafting another top QB.

As good as CW may be QBs don't win championships on their own. Teams do and more often than not it's defense that wins them. In my lifetime the Bears have gotten to two SB with less than top shelf QBs because their defense was good enough to help get them get there without a GOAT QB. Even Aaron Rodgers only got GB to one SB and that was in the year Cutler was so beat up he couldn't finish the NFCC Game and GB went instead. Tom Brady didn't win multiple SB with the best offenses in the NFL either.

I would hope that Poles is at least asking himself whether or not they can win with JF and how much better he might become now that he's gone a long way toward fixing many of the flaws in the offense JF has dealt with and whether Waldron can do for JF what he was able to do with Geno Smith. The potential for Poles be to add even more top tier talent to his team over the next couple of years could be phenomenal. If it was still Ryan Pace doing the drafting I'd have my doubts but with Poles and Co I have none.

I'm 100% certain to get stoned for this kind of thinking but IMHO it's not all at invalid.

You said this well!

I've been trying to figure out the right way to point out that it's not a black or white JF1 vs CW argument about ONLY their potential for success - it's about that risk/reward situation for each viewed in the context of what you give up or GET as a result of choosing each option. It's not enough necessarily to believe CW is the lower risk and higher reward guy between the two if you happen to believe that, it also has to factor in other considerations like who can you put around him vs. how that looks if you keep JF1.

I think you could put together a heck of a team around JF1 if you traded out of 1.1. Then again, I can also see a great team being built around what we have now + CW and a few more pieces... It's a tough call.

[Heinz D.]

The CW Cult will think that's crazy and go nuts but if Poles does decide to trade out of #1 he could do far worse than taking J J as a guy to groom while giving JF more time to see how well he can do with all of the offensive improvements made. That would be two QB's who've won national titles while in college. I believe McCarthy is a sleeper and he's a local kid to boot.

I think if Poles is super convinced that J.J. can be a better franchise QB than Fields, then he pretty much needs to take him at #1. As any other path wouldn't ensure you got him. But that's besides the point.

If Poles is going to make a switch from Fields, Fields pretty much has to go. The dynamic just doesn't work, and it's hella dangerous to mess with a young team that way.

[Bearfacts]

The CW Cult will think that's crazy and go nuts

I'm 100% certain to get stoned for this kind of thinking but IMHO it's not all at invalid.

This PICK A SIDE, binary civil war of Bears QB thought is awful, and some of you need to calm the hell down. This is not life or death. You have survived much worse as a fan. It shouldn't mean THIS much to you, and making somebody else feel bad because you disagree with their Quarterback Opinion really, really sucks.

You are barking at the wrong guy here brother. I'm as neutral as can be as far as what Poles actually does. I'm just pushing out whatever options I believe make some sense and what I believe Poles may also be considering. Since a majority seem to favor drafting CW above all else as does the media what I'm doing is presenting alternatives that I feel also make sense. And I've been challenged on them as well which is fine with me. That's why I've been posting them.

And I've been a Bears fan since before Ditka was catching passes from Bill Wade you can bet your ass I've been through far worse which is why I'm not sweating this QB decision to be as crucial as many others are. If you object to my wording then please edit it. I moderate a forum myself and it's what I would so if a member in good standing posted something I felt needed to be edited. My use of the word cult only means to define those whose minds are so made up they are blind to any other facts.

The word stoned is a figure of speech not meant to be taken literally or in any other way than somewhat in jest. It's just how I phrase things at times. I did not create a binary civil war. If that's what it is it began here and elsewhere long before I began posting here again. It also not my intent to make anyone feel bad or insult them for their opinion and if you read my posts, all of them, I don't believe you'll find that I have even when I'm disagreeing or countering their opinions. I'm not feeling hostile about this at all.

If we need to discuss this further I'd prefer we do it privately in a PM so it's a matter between just the two of us not the entire forum.

[LacertineForest]

Bears still have $27MM in cap space (not counting the rookie pool, which keeps shrinking) this year - what do you mean he is out of cap space? I agree, though, that an extension will be coming that will free up some space.

https://www.spotrac.com/nfl/cap/

(edit: updated cap space total - previously said $35MM, but that was just the top 51).

I don't believe all of the new deals have yet been accounted for. Swifty and Adam Mason both reviewed this in a video and after subtracting for the rookie pool Poles had a little less than $7 mil remaining. I have not had time to audit this myself so they may have made an error in their calculations but for now I'll trust the work they did since both are pretty thorough with this stuff.

For now I'll accept that Poles doesn't have room for anything major until he does create more space either through an extension for Allen of releasing a player or two like Borom as an example. And that may be ok for now although it seems there are at least a couple more holes he might want to fill like another DT and a 3rd TE. It's not a major problem to cut into the reserve he would usually carry into the season if he can recoup it later but remember. This is only the top 51 not all 53 plus a PS salaries which also count.

You are correct. Just looked again, and the ones missing are: Byard, Curhan, Everett, Ogbongbemiga, Pryor, Rypien, and Shelton.

[STLINI]

Vikings just picked up another 1st round pick. They seem like they're gearing up to make a trade up unless they really like Nix/Penix.

I think they're gunning for the highest pick they can get with their ammo. Curious if it might be #4 and if Arizona wants to dance.

Most people are figuring you have to get in front of the Giants as #6. Not sure the Giants would take him, but they could.

As it sits right now, I see 3 teams in front of the Bears that would be considering a WR: Cardinals, Chargers and Giants. Could always be trade ups, but if somebody comes and gets McCarthy, it's going to be pretty likely that one of the top 3 WR's are sitting there for the Bears to consider.

[Heinz D.]

I think you could put together a heck of a team around JF1 if you traded out of 1.1. Then again, I can also see a great team being built around what we have now + CW and a few more pieces... It's a tough call.

It certainly is. If only Fields had made it easier by playing better...or worse.

Bringing this all back to the thread topic--this trade cements they're moving on from Fields, most likely with Williams. You don't make the trade if you're keeping Fields. You attempt to drop down and snag Harrison.

[UOK]

This PICK A SIDE, binary civil war of Bears QB thought is awful, and some of you need to calm the hell down. This is not life or death. You have survived much worse as a fan. It shouldn't mean THIS much to you, and making somebody else feel bad because you disagree with their Quarterback Opinion really, really sucks.

You are barking at the wrong guy here brother. I'm as neutral as can be as far as what Poles actually does. I'm just pushing out whatever options I believe make some sense and what I believe Poles may also be considering. Since a majority seem to favor drafting CW above all else as does the media what I'm doing is presenting alternatives that I feel also make sense. And I've been challenged on them as well which is fine with me. That's why I've been posting them.

And I've been a Bears fan since before Ditka was catching passes from Bill Wade you can bet your ass I've been through far worse which is why I'm not sweating this QB decision to be as crucial as many others are. If you object to my wording then please edit it. I moderate a forum myself and it's what I would so if a member in good standing posted something I felt needed to be edited. My use of the word cult only means to define those whose minds are so made up they are blind to any other facts.

The word stoned is a figure of speech not meant to be taken literally or in any other way than somewhat in jest. It's just how I phrase things at times. I did not create a binary civil war. If that's what it is it began here and elsewhere long before I began posting here again. It also not my intent to make anyone feel bad or insult them for their opinion and if you read my posts, all of them, I don't believe you'll find that I have even when I'm disagreeing or countering their opinions. I'm not feeling hostile about this at all.

If we need to discuss this further I'd prefer we do it privately in a PM so it's a matter between just the two of us not the entire forum.