Offensive Line - What will it look like

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Teddy KGB
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Bears Whiskey Nut wrote: Mon Oct 14, 2024 11:25 am
Teddy KGB wrote: Mon Oct 14, 2024 11:10 am

Let me help both of you.

PFF is ASS when it comes to grading Offensive Linemen. Seriously, they are shit and way overgenerous.

Instead of stat-watching, watch ACTUAL TAPE of Braxton, and then for comparison, watch tape of his predecessor, Peters, who was called out of retirement to play a year with the Bears.

If you pay real attention, you will see the difference between Jones, and a competent LT.

Jones is continually getting Bull rushed into Caleb's pocket. Same thing as when Justin was here. Jones has a shit anchor and has had more than enough time to correct it. He also lets defenders slip by and go directly to the QB.

Peters, and other competent LTs, at best get pushed back a step or two and reroute pass rushers WIDE to force them to need an extra 1-2 steps to get to the quarterback, which is how it's SUPPOSED to be done. That buys your QB more time AND allows your QB to buy even MORE time by allowing him to step up in the pocket.

That help illuminate why people are down on Jones?
Jones has been really frustrating to watch. The book is and has been out on Braxton for awhile. Don't mess around, go right through him because he can't handle the bull rush. You see it game after game of him getting pushed straight backwards.
I mean, that's honestly for me some of the most frustrating stuff interacting with people who still are buying into him because they are more stat nerds than anything else.

You just have to focus in on Braxton for a game and pick any game, and you will see him routinely get pushed straight back into the pocket.

As best I can figure out, PFF wrongly credits that as a block so long as the defender doesn't get by the offensive lineman. But they don't account for an offensive line then getting pushed straight back into their quarterback. That is a lineman with a really weak anchor.

You can excuse that to a degree in someone's rookie season. And so long as it improves, you can excuse it somewhat during the second season. But by season 3, with two full off-season workout training and bulking programs coordinated by professional NFL trainers, if you're anchor is still crap at that point that's as best as you're going to get it.

On a team with playoff aspirations, Braxton Jones is a good backup.

He's not who you want starting at left tackle or anywhere on the line.
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wab wrote: Mon Oct 14, 2024 11:42 am I have no idea how many pressures he's given up, but he's not just letting defenders "slip by and go directly to the QB" as has been suggested. Or he'd have at least one sack attributed to him.
You're making excuses.

Watch the games and look how many times Caleb has had to bail out of the pocket because Jones couldn't hold his man...

You can't just watch a game entirely through stats dude. They are helpful and useful in context, but if you take them out of context they don't tell the whole story.
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Arkansasbear wrote: Mon Oct 14, 2024 11:44 am
wab wrote: Mon Oct 14, 2024 11:31 am And yet Jones has given up 0 sacks through 6 games.

I'm not saying Braxton Jones is Walter Jones... but he's not nearly as bad as people are making him out to be. His 5th round stigma screams "easy to replace" to fans.
I view him somewhat as Charles Leno 2.0. I think he is a better player than Leno was, but I think he can clearly be upgraded. He can likely be a top12-15 LT, but the problem becomes the money. Getting that level of performance on a rookie contract - great. On a 5th round rookie contract - unreal. But how much is he gong to cost to resign???? Not saying we shouldn't, just don't want to get a huge contract for a player you will always be looking to upgrade.
I don't disagree that they shouldn't look to upgrade him when his contract comes due. But he's fine right now.
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Teddy KGB wrote: Mon Oct 14, 2024 11:48 am
wab wrote: Mon Oct 14, 2024 11:42 am I have no idea how many pressures he's given up, but he's not just letting defenders "slip by and go directly to the QB" as has been suggested. Or he'd have at least one sack attributed to him.
You're making excuses.

Watch the games and look how many times Caleb has had to bail out of the pocket because Jones couldn't hold his man...

You can't just watch a game entirely through stats dude. They are helpful and useful in context, but if you take them out of context they don't tell the whole story.
I don't even own a TV.
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Arkansasbear wrote: Mon Oct 14, 2024 11:44 am
wab wrote: Mon Oct 14, 2024 11:31 am And yet Jones has given up 0 sacks through 6 games.

I'm not saying Braxton Jones is Walter Jones... but he's not nearly as bad as people are making him out to be. His 5th round stigma screams "easy to replace" to fans.
I view him somewhat as Charles Leno 2.0. I think he is a better player than Leno was, but I think he can clearly be upgraded. He can likely be a top12-15 LT, but the problem becomes the money. Getting that level of performance on a rookie contract - great. On a 5th round rookie contract - unreal. But how much is he gong to cost to resign???? Not saying we shouldn't, just don't want to get a huge contract for a player you will always be looking to upgrade.
I never want to advocate for a player to get injured. But I would be curious to see what happened if Jones went down with a bruise or a slight knee sprain, and they put Kiran in, if things would look any different. Part of Jones's appeal is that he has stayed healthy and available, which is a great thing. But we don't know what we don't know if he remains a starter. Is he competent? Yes. Is he a dominant stone wall? No.
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I'm also curious to see what Amegadjie looks like, although I suspect he's still pretty raw.

My bet though is that he's in line to replace either Pryor or Jenkins in the offseason.
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Thats how I see it Ark. And again, I'm not a Brax hater I said repeatedly he's pretty mid but not terrible. Just as I thought his performance yesterday was up and down but not straight up awful. I just think he's a Charles Leno level player - which, BTW is a low end starting caliber LT in the NFL - better than backup level. My issues with him, as several others have said, is that many of his "wins" are really losses because he gets pushed back and despite not allowing a sack he does negatively impact the play, shrink the pocket, and on occasion create a sack elsewhere because the QB has to move off his spot.

I have the same issue with Shelton, his comp to me is Mustipher. A smart, try hard guy that is just physically overmatched on the field but scrapes by on sheer determination and effort. These guys aren't Lachavious Simmons or Rashad Coward or J'Marcus Webb type bad - they are "servicable". The only two guys we have that display physical dominance are Wright and Tev. So I'm just pointing out that I think it's kinda nuts to dump one of those guys in favor of guys who have such an obvious physical shortcoming that limits their potential to ever be more than "servicable". Servicable players are the guys you can keep if you must, but should be looking to upgrade if you can - great depth pieces if you have that luxury.

If you re-watch the 2nd quarter of yesterday's game, the game turned on our 3rd drive which were almost all running plays. And most of those running plays had Tev leading the way. Just go back and watch it. He's one of two guys we have on our team that can physically maul the opponent - and yet a lot of folks think we should get rid of him. I have no words for this type of thinking, it's just baffling. Unless - again - he just is unreasonable in his contract demands, then so be it.
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I think it goes back to not being able to have dominant players at every position on the offensive line. There isn't a team in the league that has that. And there's maybe what, 3 teams that can say they have stars at 3-4 of the 5 spots?

Even the best offensive lines have a couple of merely serviceable players.
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wab wrote: Mon Oct 14, 2024 1:33 pm I think it goes back to not being able to have dominant players at every position on the offensive line. There isn't a team in the league that has that. And there's maybe what, 3 teams that can say they have stars at 3-4 of the 5 spots?

Even the best offensive lines have a couple of merely serviceable players.
Certainly true, but LT isn’t the position you want your lowest performer. Need a stud there. If Inhad to choose between Tev and an equal caliber LT, I’d go LT all day.
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LacertineForest wrote: Mon Oct 14, 2024 3:26 pm
Good info. Glad to see Shelton is a solid blocker. I think we all saw that one play where he tripped over Jenkins and got blown up, and were like "HE SUCKS!" Maybe that's not actually the case. Wright's regression is concerning this year, but I don't think 63 is terrible. I'd like to see if he is able to adjust and improve over the course of the season. Pryor may also be an option at RT if Wright doesn't work out. Lord knows he's big enough. Maybe when Bates comes back, if Wright continues to struggle, you put Bates at RG and Pryor at RT.
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Bears Whiskey Nut wrote: Mon Oct 14, 2024 6:00 pm
LacertineForest wrote: Mon Oct 14, 2024 3:26 pm
Good info. Glad to see Shelton is a solid blocker. I think we all saw that one play where he tripped over Jenkins and got blown up, and were like "HE SUCKS!" Maybe that's not actually the case. Wright's regression is concerning this year, but I don't think 63 is terrible. I'd like to see if he is able to adjust and improve over the course of the season. Pryor may also be an option at RT if Wright doesn't work out. Lord knows he's big enough. Maybe when Bates comes back, if Wright continues to struggle, you put Bates at RG and Pryor at RT.
I think it's worth noting that these are pass-blocking grades only. Wright and Braxton had some monster blocks in the run game. I'd be curious to see those grades, as well.
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There isn’t anyone on our Oline who should be a lock for next season.

They can all be upgraded along with their shitty Oline coach. He needs to be launched
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Ditka’s dictaphone wrote: Mon Oct 14, 2024 6:16 pm There isn’t anyone on our Oline who should be a lock for next season.

They can all be upgraded along with their shitty Oline coach. He needs to be launched
I'm pretty sure Wright is a lock to start in his third year. He hasn't been that bad and you don't give up on a top 10 draft pick that quick unless they make you.

Otherwise i agree with you.
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I think it’s more than fair to acknowledge the line is stabilizing, if not improving incrementally. We aren’t going into 2025 with 5 new starters. One, maybe two at the most.

If they continue to play well enough, I’m fine with them all staying.
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wab wrote: Mon Oct 14, 2024 8:42 pm I think it’s more than fair to acknowledge the line is stabilizing, if not improving incrementally. We aren’t going into 2025 with 5 new starters. One, maybe two at the most.

If they continue to play well enough, I’m fine with them all staying.
I will admit that the line is stabilizing. It was against the Jags and Panthers. But it's looking better. I think that a healthy Jenkins, Shelton, and Pryor make a really solid IOL. Unless Jones can figure out how to deflect the bull rush around the pocket, he will continue to be a liability. I think Wright is probably a victim of DC's figuring out what his vulnerabilities are, and it's now up to Morgan and Wright to adjust and mitigate what DE's are trying to do against him.
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I was surprised how often I saw Tev helping out Jones in pass pro. Saw him jump back 3 or 4 times to help in the 2Q alone
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dplank wrote: Mon Oct 14, 2024 9:01 am
LacertineForest wrote: Sun Oct 13, 2024 12:02 pm

It should be noted that I think draft picks could supplant other good for C and/or RG, I just don't think it will happen week 1. I do think it will be an OL-heavy draft with one higher-calibur FA player making the start.
FYI - Tev was our best lineman again yesterday. And despite all the angst about his ankle, he suited up and played every snap. He's started each of our first 6 games and barring an injury during the bye week will start Week 7 as well - he's on track for a very healthy and very good season. He's just not the guy I'd be targeting for replacement man...unless of course he anchors on 20M or some shit, then see ya.

Brax had a subpar game again, and worse was it was the same kind of problem - he just can't hold up man on man. Wright, BTW, had a good game and I think he's hitting his groove as well right now. ANd Shelton, for all the abuse he's gotten (rightfully so) has really steadied the ship. So coming back to the offseason premise, I'd be targeting C/LT and depending on if we can get Tev back or not we may also need to add G to that mix. I'm not sure about handing the keys to Kiran, we haven't seen him play at all so he could absolutely suck or be really good - we just have no idea at all on him.
Is Shelton playing better a direct result of Davis getting benched? Having big man Pryor at RG maybe helps him knowing he will not whiff on every block like Davis.
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Shadow wrote: Tue Oct 15, 2024 9:30 am
dplank wrote: Mon Oct 14, 2024 9:01 am

FYI - Tev was our best lineman again yesterday. And despite all the angst about his ankle, he suited up and played every snap. He's started each of our first 6 games and barring an injury during the bye week will start Week 7 as well - he's on track for a very healthy and very good season. He's just not the guy I'd be targeting for replacement man...unless of course he anchors on 20M or some shit, then see ya.

Brax had a subpar game again, and worse was it was the same kind of problem - he just can't hold up man on man. Wright, BTW, had a good game and I think he's hitting his groove as well right now. ANd Shelton, for all the abuse he's gotten (rightfully so) has really steadied the ship. So coming back to the offseason premise, I'd be targeting C/LT and depending on if we can get Tev back or not we may also need to add G to that mix. I'm not sure about handing the keys to Kiran, we haven't seen him play at all so he could absolutely suck or be really good - we just have no idea at all on him.
Is Shelton playing better a direct result of Davis getting benched? Having big man Pryor at RG maybe helps him knowing he will not whiff on every block like Davis.
No idea, but the entire unit is playing better around him so that would certainly help Shelton. Much like last season, we had a lot of preseason injuries and just weren't gelled at the start of the season - Flus needs to really adjust his camp/pre season concepts IMO to be better prepared Week 1. That lack of cohesion showed up all over the place and Shelton was spotlighted a few times when other issues were equally problematic. But we should give Shelton credit IMO, he's played better and has been a part of the unit's turnaround. Pryor also, he calmed things down when he took over for that dickturd Davis.
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dplank wrote: Mon Oct 14, 2024 2:24 pm
wab wrote: Mon Oct 14, 2024 1:33 pm I think it goes back to not being able to have dominant players at every position on the offensive line. There isn't a team in the league that has that. And there's maybe what, 3 teams that can say they have stars at 3-4 of the 5 spots?

Even the best offensive lines have a couple of merely serviceable players.
Certainly true, but LT isn’t the position you want your lowest performer. Need a stud there. If Inhad to choose between Tev and an equal caliber LT, I’d go LT all day.
Jones is good in the run game and getting pushed back towards the pocket, but in a fairly predictable pattern, is something we can handle.

I can see why we've drafted someone who hopefully can be better than that but he's productive enough that you don't drop $20m+ a year to replace.
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malk wrote: Tue Oct 15, 2024 11:06 am
dplank wrote: Mon Oct 14, 2024 2:24 pm

Certainly true, but LT isn’t the position you want your lowest performer. Need a stud there. If Inhad to choose between Tev and an equal caliber LT, I’d go LT all day.
Jones is good in the run game and getting pushed back towards the pocket, but in a fairly predictable pattern, is something we can handle.

I can see why we've drafted someone who hopefully can be better than that but he's productive enough that you don't drop $20m+ a year to replace.
I agree with this - the only way I see him getting replaced is if Kiran develops into that guy or if they believe they can get a stud OT in next year's draft.
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lol at predictably being shoved back into the QB's lap as "something we can handle". That's just not how this works.
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dplank wrote: Tue Oct 15, 2024 12:05 pm lol at predictably being shoved back into the QB's lap as "something we can handle". That's just not how this works.
Agreed. Sure its better than getting flat out beat, but it's not good. It disrupts the timing of an offense and causes issues that good teams will exploit.
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wab wrote: Mon Oct 14, 2024 1:33 pm I think it goes back to not being able to have dominant players at every position on the offensive line. There isn't a team in the league that has that. And there's maybe what, 3 teams that can say they have stars at 3-4 of the 5 spots?

Even the best offensive lines have a couple of merely serviceable players.
I think before we start thinking we need to have a dominate player at every position on the OL, we should advocate to get one such player on the OL. :evilgrin:
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I rewatched the game with an eye on the line only, primarily Brax, and I was happy with the left side. Braxton didn't often stonewall the guy but he didn't get beat badly either. As @dplank noted the most fun plays were when Tev was looking for work and got to go punch the guy that was "slowly pushing braxton back". Meanwhile, Wright got turnstiled a few times and those plays broke down quickly. If I was gonna replace someone for the 2024 season right now it would be him. I'm not ready to say "let's make him a guard" but considering the need at RG it wouldn't be crazy if the 2025 line was

Brax - Tev - Bates - Wright - Cameron Williams drafted in the late 1st
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dplank wrote: Tue Oct 15, 2024 12:05 pm lol at predictably being shoved back into the QB's lap as "something we can handle". That's just not how this works.
Of course it is. If someone occasionally gets blown past for a quick pressure then that's incredibly hard to deal with. If you have a guy you can rely on not to get beat/passed but will slowly give up ground then you can accoubt for that both as a playcaller and as a QB.

Williams is showing a decent internal clock now and then will get out of the pocket to make something elae happen.

Plus I'd bet Jones getting constantly shoved into the pocket is actually Jones steadily but not catastrophically give up ground to bull rushes on 20% of his passing downs, or about 6 plays a game.
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No LT in the league stonewalls his guy 100% of the time.
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dplank wrote: Tue Oct 15, 2024 12:05 pm lol at predictably being shoved back into the QB's lap as "something we can handle". That's just not how this works.
It could be a lot worse. He could be getting rag dolled by mediocre DE's. He just doesn't anchor well. If the DE tries to bend the corner or swim inside, Jones is usually good at stopping that.
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A short 4 minute video highlighting a couple of great plays by Jenkins:

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HisRoyalSweetness wrote: Wed Oct 16, 2024 5:47 pm A short 4 minute video highlighting a couple of great plays by Jenkins:

Jenkins is a beast, no doubt. And he's got a WHOLE lot of nasty in him. It will be interesting to see if the next two weeks will allow him to get fully healthy. I also like what I'm seeing out of Shelton. He seems to anchor really well.
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