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dplank
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If we take fandom out of it though, the national consensus isn't close on this. Ray Lewis is consistently ranked as a Top 5 all timer, Urlacher is never ranked as a Top 5 all timer. Heck, he's 4th best LB just for the Bears IMO...

1. Dick Butkus
2. Bill George
3. Mike Singletary
4. Brian Urlacher

FWIW, when I googled it and scanned a bunch of different lists, the names that kept popping up in the best ever LB lists were Lawrence Taylor, Dick Butkus, Ray Lewis...

It feels like a dig on Urlacher but really it's not, he's on basically every Top 30 or so all time LB board and was a first ballot HOF player. So it's kinda splitting hairs I suppose. My dislike for him as a person doesn't play a factor here as I absolutely can't stand Ray Lewis either.
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dplank wrote: Wed Jul 03, 2024 8:22 am I've never understood the Chase Daniel hate. He was a better player than Mitch Trubisky. I get that he's earned an insane amount of money over his career for being a backup player, but he was a good backup so lucky him, I don't begrudge him for it. If folks like Bagent, Daniel is a decent comp for that guy. Not a big arm, but his strengths are his ability to read defenses and get the ball out quickly and accurately to his playmakers. Those are Bagent's strengths as well, Bagent is a better athlete but that doesn't come into play a whole bunch with the quick throw style of play.

I hope Bagent has a long 10+ career as a backup and makes millions of dollars doing it. He's a good kid and easy to root for.
Yeah - He wasn't better than Mitch. We don't have to do that.

There was a reason that every team passed on him to be their Starting QB like 5 times per team.

Bagent has just every strength over Chase (again - it's not hard to be a better QB than Chase Daniel) - just doesn't (Yet) get the good Locker Room Vet seal of approval (which is key!)

The worst thing that can happen to a career backup QB is to actually PLAY. Then you watch them become Hanie right before your eyes
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Chase Daniel also has a career 9.0% Sack Rate too (Granted ANYTHING with Chase is small sample size issue - because the league went above and beyond to make sure no one ever played him)

That's not a good number unless you are Justin Fields or David Carr
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RichH55 wrote: Wed Jul 03, 2024 2:56 pm
dplank wrote: Wed Jul 03, 2024 8:22 am I've never understood the Chase Daniel hate. He was a better player than Mitch Trubisky. I get that he's earned an insane amount of money over his career for being a backup player, but he was a good backup so lucky him, I don't begrudge him for it. If folks like Bagent, Daniel is a decent comp for that guy. Not a big arm, but his strengths are his ability to read defenses and get the ball out quickly and accurately to his playmakers. Those are Bagent's strengths as well, Bagent is a better athlete but that doesn't come into play a whole bunch with the quick throw style of play.

I hope Bagent has a long 10+ career as a backup and makes millions of dollars doing it. He's a good kid and easy to root for.
Yeah - He wasn't better than Mitch. We don't have to do that.

There was a reason that every team passed on him to be their Starting QB like 5 times per team.

Bagent has just every strength over Chase (again - it's not hard to be a better QB than Chase Daniel) - just doesn't (Yet) get the good Locker Room Vet seal of approval (which is key!)

The worst thing that can happen to a career backup QB is to actually PLAY. Then you watch them become Hanie right before your eyes
It is actually rather hard to be a better QB than Chase Daniel. During the time he played there were only 30-40 guys on planet earth that were better than him. :evilgrin:
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Arkansasbear wrote: Wed Jul 03, 2024 3:07 pm
RichH55 wrote: Wed Jul 03, 2024 2:56 pm

Yeah - He wasn't better than Mitch. We don't have to do that.

There was a reason that every team passed on him to be their Starting QB like 5 times per team.

Bagent has just every strength over Chase (again - it's not hard to be a better QB than Chase Daniel) - just doesn't (Yet) get the good Locker Room Vet seal of approval (which is key!)

The worst thing that can happen to a career backup QB is to actually PLAY. Then you watch them become Hanie right before your eyes
It is actually rather hard to be a better QB than Chase Daniel. During the time he played there were only 30-40 guys on planet earth that were better than him. :evilgrin:
Yes - in the grand scheme - Chase Daniels was one of the Top 100 QB on the planet in most seasons - He'd be a top 3 QB on this board.

And I got to think he would have been rather good in the Malaysian League.
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RichH55 wrote: Wed Jul 03, 2024 3:10 pm
Arkansasbear wrote: Wed Jul 03, 2024 3:07 pm

It is actually rather hard to be a better QB than Chase Daniel. During the time he played there were only 30-40 guys on planet earth that were better than him. :evilgrin:
Yes - in the grand scheme - Chase Daniels was one of the Top 100 QB on the planet in most seasons - He'd be a top 3 QB on this board.

And I got to think he would have been rather good in the Malaysian League.
Rather good!?!?!? He'd been all-pro every year!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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Arkansasbear wrote: Wed Jul 03, 2024 3:13 pm
RichH55 wrote: Wed Jul 03, 2024 3:10 pm

Yes - in the grand scheme - Chase Daniels was one of the Top 100 QB on the planet in most seasons - He'd be a top 3 QB on this board.

And I got to think he would have been rather good in the Malaysian League.
Rather good!?!?!? He'd been all-pro every year!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Agree to disagree:)

He would learn Malay pretty quickly - And they would love his values of Cooperation and Loyalty - as well as his lack of PDAs.
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dplank wrote: Wed Jul 03, 2024 2:46 pm If we take fandom out of it though, the national consensus isn't close on this. Ray Lewis is consistently ranked as a Top 5 all timer, Urlacher is never ranked as a Top 5 all timer. Heck, he's 4th best LB just for the Bears IMO...

1. Dick Butkus
2. Bill George
3. Mike Singletary
4. Brian Urlacher

FWIW, when I googled it and scanned a bunch of different lists, the names that kept popping up in the best ever LB lists were Lawrence Taylor, Dick Butkus, Ray Lewis...

It feels like a dig on Urlacher but really it's not, he's on basically every Top 30 or so all time LB board and was a first ballot HOF player. So it's kinda splitting hairs I suppose. My dislike for him as a person doesn't play a factor here as I absolutely can't stand Ray Lewis either.
Urlacher was a MLB for the Bears and because of that there is a romantic nostalgia going on there with a lot of people where he is overvalued for what he really was.

Ray Lewis was head and shoulders above anybody else in that era and I don't see how it's close even against Urlacher.

All time? Has to be Lawrence Taylor. There's no way it's anybody else.
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The Marshall Plan wrote: Wed Jul 03, 2024 4:28 pm All time? Has to be Lawrence Taylor. There's no way it's anybody else.
True...but I'd differentiate between a 3-4 OLB and, say, a 4-3 MLB.
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Heinz D. wrote: Wed Jul 03, 2024 4:42 pm
The Marshall Plan wrote: Wed Jul 03, 2024 4:28 pm All time? Has to be Lawrence Taylor. There's no way it's anybody else.
True...but I'd differentiate between a 3-4 OLB and, say, a 4-3 MLB.
Good points from you both. I see LT as the greatest pass rushing LB followed by a Derrick Thomas and Butkus as the best interior LB followed by Ray Lewis.
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I will never blame an NFL backup QB for getting paid far more than any fan believes he's worth. It's not the fault of the QB if he's overpaid it's the fault of the GM who believes he needs him. What we're seeing from Poles so far is a GM who doesn't always play things by the same "book" others do.
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Heinz D. wrote: Wed Jul 03, 2024 4:42 pm
The Marshall Plan wrote: Wed Jul 03, 2024 4:28 pm All time? Has to be Lawrence Taylor. There's no way it's anybody else.
True...but I'd differentiate between a 3-4 OLB and, say, a 4-3 MLB.
That's actually a fair point. The pass rusher v the half-and-half pass rusher / coverage / tackle guy.

OK, so LT was a 3-4.

Ray was 4-3.

I'll take those two as the best in their respective defenses.
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dplank wrote: Wed Jul 03, 2024 2:46 pm If we take fandom out of it though, the national consensus isn't close on this. Ray Lewis is consistently ranked as a Top 5 all timer, Urlacher is never ranked as a Top 5 all timer. Heck, he's 4th best LB just for the Bears IMO...

1. Dick Butkus
2. Bill George
3. Mike Singletary
4. Brian Urlacher

FWIW, when I googled it and scanned a bunch of different lists, the names that kept popping up in the best ever LB lists were Lawrence Taylor, Dick Butkus, Ray Lewis...

It feels like a dig on Urlacher but really it's not, he's on basically every Top 30 or so all time LB board and was a first ballot HOF player. So it's kinda splitting hairs I suppose. My dislike for him as a person doesn't play a factor here as I absolutely can't stand Ray Lewis either.
I think Urlacher really misses out by not having advanced stats at the time, his coverage was incredible with the only slight being that he should have had more interceptions.

Well that and the way the scheme didn't pad out his box score stats. Not a critique of Lovie but imagine if Urlacher had been regularly sent after the passer, his sack numbers would have been insane. Plus TFL remain the most underappreciated stat in football, Urlacher having 138 to Lewis' 99, in 46 fewer games, incredible.

But for a simple explanation of why Lewis gets more love than Urlacher... 2 rings.
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malk wrote: Fri Jul 05, 2024 5:28 am
dplank wrote: Wed Jul 03, 2024 2:46 pm If we take fandom out of it though, the national consensus isn't close on this. Ray Lewis is consistently ranked as a Top 5 all timer, Urlacher is never ranked as a Top 5 all timer. Heck, he's 4th best LB just for the Bears IMO...

1. Dick Butkus
2. Bill George
3. Mike Singletary
4. Brian Urlacher

FWIW, when I googled it and scanned a bunch of different lists, the names that kept popping up in the best ever LB lists were Lawrence Taylor, Dick Butkus, Ray Lewis...

It feels like a dig on Urlacher but really it's not, he's on basically every Top 30 or so all time LB board and was a first ballot HOF player. So it's kinda splitting hairs I suppose. My dislike for him as a person doesn't play a factor here as I absolutely can't stand Ray Lewis either.
I think Urlacher really misses out by not having advanced stats at the time, his coverage was incredible with the only slight being that he should have had more interceptions.

Well that and the way the scheme didn't pad out his box score stats. Not a critique of Lovie but imagine if Urlacher had been regularly sent after the passer, his sack numbers would have been insane. Plus TFL remain the most underappreciated stat in football, Urlacher having 138 to Lewis' 99, in 46 fewer games, incredible.

But for a simple explanation of why Lewis gets more love than Urlacher... 2 rings.
Yep.
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Arkansasbear wrote: Fri Jul 05, 2024 7:48 am
malk wrote: Fri Jul 05, 2024 5:28 am

I think Urlacher really misses out by not having advanced stats at the time, his coverage was incredible with the only slight being that he should have had more interceptions.

Well that and the way the scheme didn't pad out his box score stats. Not a critique of Lovie but imagine if Urlacher had been regularly sent after the passer, his sack numbers would have been insane. Plus TFL remain the most underappreciated stat in football, Urlacher having 138 to Lewis' 99, in 46 fewer games, incredible.

But for a simple explanation of why Lewis gets more love than Urlacher... 2 rings.
Yep.
Only one problem here. Dick Butkus consistently ranks in the top 3 as well and I'm not sure he ever even played on a team with a winning record - certainly no rings.
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I have a hard time calling LT or Derrick Thomas LBs. 99% of the time Thomas' hand was in the dirt. LT, did he play coverage? That dude was on the LOS every damn play and he was thinking QB first and everything else second.
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dplank wrote: Fri Jul 05, 2024 7:56 am
Arkansasbear wrote: Fri Jul 05, 2024 7:48 am

Yep.
Only one problem here. Dick Butkus consistently ranks in the top 3 as well and I'm not sure he ever even played on a team with a winning record - certainly no rings.
I can see the rings being a relevant factor if we're talking about QBs. QBs can drive winning a Super Bowl a lot more than a LB can.

Rings matter when debating HC and QB, but not so much anybody else.

I don't know how somebody can say we won the whole thing because of a LB. We won 12 games, got home field advantage, won in the playoffs and won the Super Bowl. How could a LB even do that?

This is why Dan Marino is not in the discussion about Top 5 QBs. For raw QB talent I don't know how you argue against Dan Marino up there if not even the #1 of all time. But Marino never won.
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dplank wrote: Fri Jul 05, 2024 7:56 am
Arkansasbear wrote: Fri Jul 05, 2024 7:48 am

Yep.
Only one problem here. Dick Butkus consistently ranks in the top 3 as well and I'm not sure he ever even played on a team with a winning record - certainly no rings.
I'm not saying its the only factor but in a situation where there are two players that are being compared and one has a couple of rings where the other doesn't, that makes a difference. The other big thing in this particular case, which also speaks to TMP's point, the Ravens won because of their defence rather than their QB, especially in 2000. If we make it in 2006 then UIrlacher as QB of the Defence of a team that didn't have a great QB... well that has some impact.
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The Marshall Plan wrote: Fri Jul 05, 2024 10:01 am
dplank wrote: Fri Jul 05, 2024 7:56 am

Only one problem here. Dick Butkus consistently ranks in the top 3 as well and I'm not sure he ever even played on a team with a winning record - certainly no rings.
I can see the rings being a relevant factor if we're talking about QBs. QBs can drive winning a Super Bowl a lot more than a LB can.

Rings matter when debating HC and QB, but not so much anybody else.

I don't know how somebody can say we won the whole thing because of a LB. We won 12 games, got home field advantage, won in the playoffs and won the Super Bowl. How could a LB even do that?

This is why Dan Marino is not in the discussion about Top 5 QBs. For raw QB talent I don't know how you argue against Dan Marino up there if not even the #1 of all time. But Marino never won.
Ray Lewis was a great leader and one of those Ravens super bowls he absolutely was the driving force. Players wanted to run thru a wall for Lewis.

That is the biggest difference between Urlacher and Lewis imo. The leadership gap is off the charts. Urlacher wasn't a bad leader but he was no Ray Lewis.
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This is such a dumb fucking conversation because no one is addressing the elephant in the room: When Jack Sanborn finishes his HOF career no one will even remember who urlacher or lewis are. The hair plugs guy? The accessory to murder? Doesn't ring a bell.

You might have a stray giants fan here or there, pleading for LT to be in the conversation through tears in their eyes, but we know the truth: It's the Sangod and then everyone else.
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Rusty Trombagent wrote: Fri Jul 05, 2024 12:10 pm This is such a dumb fucking conversation because no one is addressing the elephant in the room: When Jack Sanborn finishes his HOF career no one will even remember who urlacher or lewis are. The hair plugs guy? The accessory to murder? Doesn't ring a bell.

You might have a stray giants fan here or there, pleading for LT to be in the conversation through tears in their eyes, but we know the truth: It's the Sangod and then everyone else.
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HisRoyalSweetness wrote: Fri Jul 05, 2024 2:56 pm
Rusty Trombagent wrote: Fri Jul 05, 2024 12:10 pm This is such a dumb fucking conversation because no one is addressing the elephant in the room: When Jack Sanborn finishes his HOF career no one will even remember who urlacher or lewis are. The hair plugs guy? The accessory to murder? Doesn't ring a bell.

You might have a stray giants fan here or there, pleading for LT to be in the conversation through tears in their eyes, but we know the truth: It's the Sangod and then everyone else.
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Butkus, Ray Lewis, Nietzski (or however you spell it), Singletary, George, Huff were all the best MLB in 4-3 Ds. None played it better than Butkus. The 3-4 LB was a different breed Url is in the top group of them but LT is the best.
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Grizzled wrote: Fri Jul 05, 2024 8:00 pm Butkus, Ray Lewis, Nietzski (or however you spell it), Singletary, George, Huff were all the best MLB in 4-3 Ds. None played it better than Butkus. The 3-4 LB was a different breed Url is in the top group of them but LT is the best.
Not sure I've understood this correctly. Urlacher played middle linebacker in a 4-3.
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HisRoyalSweetness wrote: Fri Jul 05, 2024 8:19 pm
Grizzled wrote: Fri Jul 05, 2024 8:00 pm Butkus, Ray Lewis, Nietzski (or however you spell it), Singletary, George, Huff were all the best MLB in 4-3 Ds. None played it better than Butkus. The 3-4 LB was a different breed Url is in the top group of them but LT is the best.
Not sure I've understood this correctly. Urlacher played middle linebacker in a 4-3.
My bad, I jumped the gun on the Bears going to a 3-4. Yes, he was the MLB, in the HOF and all, supremely talented, but I'd put him below the group I mention as top 4-3 MLBs. Good catch.
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Grizzled wrote: Fri Jul 05, 2024 8:00 pm Butkus, Ray Lewis, Nietzski (or however you spell it), Singletary, George, Huff were all the best MLB in 4-3 Ds. None played it better than Butkus. The 3-4 LB was a different breed Url is in the top group of them but LT is the best.
Butkus and Urlacher, fundamentally, didn't play the same sport imo.

Lewis and Urlacher are the two standouts from the all decade team from 2000-2010. Then I don't think anyone from the 90s or the 10s gets particularly close to either of them, and I'm not seeing anyone in the 20s that looks like they will.

Earlier than the 90s and there aren't any direct comparisons so it's down to the, still fun, comparison against peers.
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dplank wrote: Mon Jul 08, 2024 7:19 amLuke Kuechly
This is a good call

I also think Fred Warner is higher than people think - and in his prime Bobby Wagner (maybe one of the best coverage LB of All time)
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RichH55 wrote: Mon Jul 08, 2024 9:32 am
dplank wrote: Mon Jul 08, 2024 7:19 amLuke Kuechly
This is a good call

I also think Fred Warner is higher than people think - and in his prime Bobby Wagner (maybe one of the best coverage LB of All time)
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Patrick Willis was pretty good. He made the 2010 all decade team.

I always thought Urlacher was the best safety to ever play MLB.
He may have been the best cover LB in NFL history and his speed and athleticism made him a force sideline to sideline.
But for a guy his size he was not great at defeating blockers and even on his best day he was not the intimidator that Ray Lewis was, never mind Butkus.
Go find the clip of 6' Singletary standing up the 6'3'' Eric Dickerson on 3rd and 1 in the 85 playoff game.
That, there, is a MLB.
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